Chechnya (Hansard, 18 November 2002)

§ Lord Lamont of Lerwick
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they support the policy of the Russian Government towards Chechnya.

§ The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government recognise the territorial integrity of the Russian Federation and we share the Russian Government's outrage at the recent terrorist attack in 136 Moscow. Our sympathy goes out to the families and friends of the victims of this appalling tragedy. We have unequivocally condemned the perpetrators of that attack and their links to international terrorism. Of course, we believe that the Russian response to that incident, and their military operations in Chechnya, must respect the rule of law and their human rights obligations.

§ Lord Lamont of Lerwick
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that balanced reply. I totally condemn, as she did, the recent action of Chechen rebels in the theatre in Moscow, but is it not the case that terrible things have been done in Chechnya by Russian troops and that ultimately the issue will have to be solved through politics and political negotiation? Is not one of the problems of the so-called global war against terrorism the fact that people with an internal dispute can justify whatever they do and whatever repressive measures they take by aligning themselves with the West and calling it part of the fight against terrorism?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, the attack on the theatre in Moscow was not the only attack to be perpetrated by some in Chechnya. They have perpetrated such attacks on civilian targets before; they have also used land mines indiscriminately; and they have maltreated Russian prisoners. Of course, allegations have also been made about the conduct of Russian forces. We believe that any such operations have to be proportionate and in accordance with the rule of law. We press the Russians to investigate thoroughly any allegations of human rights abuses. We would like to see more effective co-operation between the Russian authorities and humanitarian aid agencies and we do not believe that the problem can be solved by military means alone. It must also be solved through discussion.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that although in the past few years some fundamentalist Islamic groups have joined the Chechen resistance, we are seeing the continuation of a colonial war that has continued on and off for the past 150 years? Will my noble friend suggest to the Russians that the only way in which they can solve the problem is to talk to the elected president of the Chechens and his government in exile?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, that is a difficult question. We do not believe that there can be a purely military solution; there must also be a political process. We recognise that in light of the events in Moscow the Russian Government are having great difficulty in finding a credible interlocutor. My noble friend suggests that Mr Maskhadov may be such a credible interlocutor, but I remind him that in July this year Mr Maskhadov shared a public platform, the proceedings of which were broadcast by Al-Jazeera, with Mr Basayev, who was responsible for the outrage in the Dubrovka theatre. That will not enhance 137 Mr Maskhadov's standing with those who want to advance him as an interlocutor. I believe that he did his cause great damage by doing that.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is the Minister aware that at the same time the Russians are forcing internally displaced people in Ingushetia to return to Chechnya and denying admission to the UN rapporteur on violence against women and the Secretary-General's special envoy on internally displaced persons? Will the Government reinforce the demand made by the previous High Commissioner for human rights that a comprehensive independent inquiry should be conducted into the abuses? Will she and her partners in the European Union try to persuade the Russians that they should comply with the special procedures of the Human Rights Commissioner and the Secretary-General?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, knows, we asked the Russian Government to issue invitations to all the relevant UN special rapporteurs, including the special rapporteur on violence against women, during the talks held in September this year. The Russian Government responded that an invitation to the rapporteur on violence against women will be issued when the security situation permits. There have been various initiatives among ourselves and our European partners. The Russian Government have taken note of the EU position, but so far the EU representatives have not succeeded in persuading the Russians to change their approach in Chechnya.

§ Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, I am glad that the noble Baroness raised the question of the behaviour of the Russian army. Will she and her colleagues, when next in dialogue with their Russian opposite numbers, say that although we have every sympathy with and support for President Putin in his battle against international terrorism, particularly after the Moscow theatre horror, it is the sheer brutality and hideousness of the incidents in which the Russian army is involved, when it seems to behave more like a rabble than a disciplined force, that are losing him the support that he needs? Would she see that he gets that message? If he wants more support he must, as the noble Lord has just said, seek to conform to the highest international standards and to involve the international community in his fight against international terrorism.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I have already indicated that we have pressed the Russian Government to investigate thoroughly any allegations of human rights abuses. We have also said that we believe that those responsible for such violations should be prosecuted and, where appropriate, punished. But it is terribly important for us constantly to keep some balance in answering these questions, both publicly and in private discussions. The fact is that a number of these groupings in Chechnya have either directly or indirectly been involved with international terrorism. The latest 138 outrage might have cost the lives of 800 innocent people in the Dubrovka theatre. I pause merely to make the deduction for the number of people perpetrating the violence. But there were almost 800 innocent people in that theatre who might have lost their lives.

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree— I think she has already said that she does—that this second Chechnen war is not primarily a war of independence but is an Islamist-funded and inspired war with the objective of obtaining the oil from the Caspian oil field for militant Islamism? That is well documented. The intention was also to extend that war into Dagestan. The Russian response must be seen very much in that context and perspective. Indeed, as the noble Baroness has already said, the Russians themselves suffered appalling violations of human rights at the hands of the Chechnen terrorists.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I cannot agree with the noble Baroness that the war is fundamentally inspired by Islamic extremists. I agree with the noble Baroness that some Islamic extremists have allied themselves with international Islamic extremists. I have mentioned Shamil Basayev who was responsible for what happened in Moscow: I could equally mention Abu Walid who leads the Mujaheddin operating in Chechnya. But there are other elements who, although they are by Russian lights behaving murderously, are not necessarily so closely linked with Islamic terrorism but who are perpetrating acts of violence still against civilian objectives in Chechnya.