HL Deb 28 May 2002 vol 635 cc1222-7

7.35 p.m.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

rose to move, That the draft regulatory reform order laid before the House on 17th December 2001 be approved [19th Report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee].

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the provisions of this order do three things. First, they help older carers, particularly those on low incomes. From the end of October 2002, carers over the age of 65 will be able, for the first time, to qualify for invalid care allowance (ICA) on the same basis as younger carers: that is, they must be caring for a minimum of 35 hours a week for someone receiving certain qualifying benefits, usually attendance allowance or DLA care component at the middle or higher rate, and not be in gainful employment or full-time education.

The order will help older carers with no retirement pension, or a low rate of retirement pension, by increasing their income by up to £42.45 a week. It will also help carers—the more usual group, I suspect receiving the minimum income guarantee by giving them access to the carer premium, currently £24.80 a week. An estimated 40,000 older carers are expected to benefit from the change over three years.

This change removes the present anomaly which prevents carers aged 65 and over from claiming ICA, but allows people who qualified for the benefit before they reached that age to continue to be entitled after that age even though they have ceased to be carers or have entered gainful employment. From October 2002, subject to a further change that I shall describe in a moment, entitlement to ICA will stop when the person ceases to be a carer or otherwise no longer satisfies the conditions of entitlement to the benefit.

People aged 65 and over and entitled to ICA at the date of the change will not be affected by this change. They will continue to be entitled until their claim ceases for some other reason—for example, residence and presence conditions.

Secondly, the provisions of this order will ensure that, from the end of October 2002, entitlement to ICA will continue for up to eight weeks for carers of all ages following the death of the severely disabled person. This will help ex-carers who have recently been bereaved by giving them time to adjust and make plans for their own future. An estimated 10,000 carers will benefit over three years. The carer premium already has a similar eight-week roll-on. In other words, at present, those on income support receive the roll-on; those who are not, but are in receipt of ICA, do not. We are now extending the roll-on to other carers.

Thirdly, the order changes the name "invalid care allowance" to "carers' allowance". This is not a cosmetic change; it is both essential and appropriate. It was very much wanted by the Carers National Association. It is essential to underline the fact that the benefit is for carers and their needs, and is appropriate because it removes the negative connotations associated with the word "invalid".

I am delighted to be bringing these changes to the House. I think that they are wonderful, and I commend the order to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft regulatory reform order laid before the House on 17th December 2001 be approved [19th Report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committed].—(Baroness Hollis of Heigham.)

Lord Higgins

My Lords, the noble Baroness and I had an exchange at Question Time today; we have spent some three hours in Grand Committee upstairs since then; and now we are opposite each other again. Someone is bound to say that we cannot go on meeting like this!

Although the noble Baroness, from time to time, pleads collective responsibility when her enthusiasm for a particular measure may be doubtful, this order is something of a personal victory for her, and she ought to be congratulated on it. It is a significant improvement for a group of people whom we are now to know as "carers". The representations that we have had on their behalf—from Carers UK, for example—show just how much this help is needed. A third of such people are on income support; eight out of 10 have to give up work in order to care for someone; one in three are, or have been, in debt; they have very little by way of savings, indeed some have no savings at all. Therefore, this is a welcome order, and we are glad to see it.

I hope that the noble Baroness may be able to clarify one point. The order is introduced under the regulatory reform programme. This is the first occasion on which we have amended a social security Act under that programme. Therefore, the Secretary of State has to make various statements at the beginning of the order. I am slightly puzzled by paragraph (b), which, after "Whereas", states that, this Order creates a burden affecting persons in the carrying on of certain activities". On whom does the burden of the order fall?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, I do not know to what the noble Lord is referring. I am looking at the regulatory reform order but cannot find the reference.

Lord Higgins

My Lords, I am referring to the Regulatory Reform (Carer's Allowance) Order 2002. The order begins with the word "Whereas", after which, under paragraph (b), it goes on to say that, this Order creates a burden affecting persons". On reading the order itself, however, my impression was that, far from creating a burden, it gives considerable relief to this group. So I am simply wondering who are the group on whom a burden is being imposed, despite the fact that, on balance, the order may cancel out that burden. That is the first point.

As the Minister pointed out, there is also a change in the name of the benefit from invalid care allowance to carer's allowance. Name changes have been controversial in many cases, not least in the change of "social security" to the rather sordid "work and pensions". However, the change to carer's allowance is entirely appropriate and we welcome it.

The Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform made a number of points on the order in the context of the regulatory reform programme. Although it does not recommend any change to the order, it had one concern. It seems that a very small group of carers aged under 65 will not be able to benefit from the current concession allowing entitlement to the allowance of those over 65 to continue after the death of the person cared for. We certainly welcome the fact that the benefit is to continue after the death of the person cared for, albeit for a limited time, because clearly it is a period of great trauma when those concerned are under considerable stress. However, what we are not clear about is how the Government propose to resolve the problem with regard to those just under 65.

I gather that, annually, on average—although it is a rather precise number for an average—about 233 individuals would be affected by withdrawal of the current concession. Various ways of getting round the problem have been examined. As I understand it, the department has argued that, in such a situation, the individuals concerned would be protected by other forms of income support including the minimum income guarantee. I think that, in her opening remarks, the Minister explained how that particular provision would operate. However, will this particular group receive an amount over and above the minimum income guarantee, equivalent to the amount received by those helped by the order?

Those are the main points that need to be made. We congratulate the Minister on the way in which she has sought to help this particular group. I hope that, in her reply, she will answer the specific points that I have raised.

7.45 p.m.

Lord Addington

My Lords, we on these Benches welcome this package, which almost completely mirrors the proposals in our own policy document. I do not know whether it is a matter of great minds thinking alike or of someone copying over someone else's shoulder, but I do not suppose that it really matters very much. The changes are generally to be welcomed, although we could discuss in detail and at length where we should go from here. The main point, however, is that the changes are definitely beneficial. In relation to the eight-week continuation period, I remember my much lamented friend Lady Seear saying that we should not expect people to go straight from the grave to the benefits office. People have long struggled for that civilising factor, and I welcome it.

There is much more to be said about future reforms to enable more people to benefit and to transfer other related benefits to carers. For now, however, I shall simply say that we welcome this package.

Baroness Pitkeathley

My Lords, there are few noble Lords who would welcome this change with greater joy than I do. Carers have for many years regarded as discriminatory the requirement that carers must be under 65 to claim invalid care allowance. We first identified the problem in 1986, when I first joined the carers movement. I was shocked to discover how many people in their 70s, 80s and even 90s were still caring for someone else. The change does not necessarily mean that carers will receive the benefit. However, the underlying entitlement not only gives them access to the carer's premium as a top-up to income support: it recognises that carers have additional costs in caring. It also gives them an underlying entitlement to housing benefit and council tax benefit.

For me, the eight-week extension only too clearly recalls Baroness Seear. I was with her when the carer said to us, "We are expected to go from the graveside to the job centre". I remember that phrase being used, as will the noble Lord, Lord Newton, whom I am very glad to see in the Chamber. This change is also extremely welcome.

With the introduction of the work-focused interview, carers felt that they were not in a position to benefit from back-to-work advice. Moreover, many carers felt that that would be inappropriate. This change gives them some breathing space and brings the benefit into line, as the Minister has reminded us, with other benefits such as the carer's premium. The order also recognises that financial as well as emotional adjustments have to be made when caring ceases. I think that that is a very important point.

Some may not think that the name change is greatly significant, but that is not how carers feel. On the basis of carers' comments, Carers UK feels very strongly that the change is significant. The change is also extremely welcome because it will reduce confusion. Many carers already call this benefit the carer's allowance. Furthermore, as the Minister said, the word invalid is outdated and many disabled people find it offensive.

The war for carers is certainly not over, but many battles will have been won if the order is passed. On behalf of the carers' movement, I should like, if I may, to add my own personal tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for her tenacity on this issue over the years and her total commitment to getting a better and fairer deal for carers.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, I am delighted and so pleased at the warm welcome for the order. I was puzzled when the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, mentioned the word burden as that was the last thing that I had in mind. I therefore spent some time trying to find the word in the order, after which I asked my noble friend Lady Farrington if she could find it. We could not find it, and we wondered whether we ought to change our spectacles. However, she had the shrewd idea that we should instead go to the Box, where we discovered that the word burden has been removed from the latest draft, after the first-stage scrutiny. Clearly, therefore, as a result of scrutiny, we decided that it was not a burden any more. I do apologise to the noble Lord, who is clearly unintentionally working on an old draft.

Lord Higgins

My Lords, as far as I am aware, my copy of the order came this afternoon from the Printed Paper Office. I am therefore somewhat puzzled by the matter. As my preparation for this was rather late, it is unlikely to be out of date. However, if the burden has been removed, let me ask the Minister a hypothetical question. What is the burden that has been removed?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, to give a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question, it was removed because it was not a burden. I offer my sincere apologies if your Lordships have received a draft that is not as up-to-date as it should be. I presume that noble Lords have a formatted version which has now been changed. I intervened as regards the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, because I was baffled by his comment. Regulatory reform orders must be exposed to a series of analytical questions before they can proceed. Is it a burden? The answer clearly is that it is not. If there is anything further I can add as regards an earlier draft and the current one, I shall write to noble Lords. But, as I say, I am puzzled by that remark.

The substantive point concerned what the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, called "losers". The noble Lord will know that the general rule is that there is no overlapping of benefits. One does not receive both retirement pension and carer's allowance. That is why it is available to those people who have incomplete retirement pension records, and so on.

However, there is another important advantage. If you are on retirement pension topped up by MIG, you would be entitled to a carer's premium worth £24.80. That is an additional resource for those over 65. A small number under 65 will not continue to receive it. All of those who currently receive carer's allowance and are aged 65 and over are transitionally protected. In other words, only people who would have come on to the benefit in future are affected. It was always something of an anomaly that someone coming on to carer's allowance in their fifties or sixties could continue to receive it after the eight week period of adjustment time when the person they cared for had died, whereas someone who became a carer over the age of 65, whatever the degree of their —responsibilities, was never eligible. That is what we have tidied up.

Obviously, anyone between 60 and 65 who is not yet a carer but may become a carer will be eligible for MIG. It is worth reminding ourselves that, particularly for younger carers under the age of 65, the average period of caring is about three to three and a half years. So people move quite quickly through the caring situation unless they are mothers of a severely disabled child. The long-stay carers—I look to my noble friend for support—are likely to be those over 65 who are caring for a spouse. They, in particular, will benefit from the measure.

As I say, I am delighted that the measure has received such a warm reception, particularly from my noble friend who did so much before she joined the House to advance the cause of carers. I also pay tribute to Harry Cayton of the Alzheimer's Society. Those two people together have turned much of our thinking around. As the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, said, if you are a carer you are likely to find yourself not only in poor health and in poor finances but also so isolated that when your time comes to be cared for there is no one to care for you. I am glad that we are making a modest contribution tonight by helping, at least in a financial sense, to avoid that sorry situation for people who have devoted their lives to helping other people.

On Question, Motion agreed to.