HL Deb 15 May 2002 vol 635 cc286-8

2.52 p.m.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick

asked Her Majesty's Government:

What help they intend to give to the 12 British plane spotters convicted by a Greek court of espionage; and whether this case in any way changes their attitude towards the European arrest warrant as set out by the Lord Rooker in this House on 23rd April (Official Report, cols. 229–235).

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Rooker)

My Lords, the Government are continuing to provide full consular support. Additionally, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will be meeting the group and the families on 23rd May. As for the second part of the noble Lord's Question, the answer is no. As everyone knows, in the summer we shall publish a draft extradition Bill which will deal with the European arrest warrant.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I also welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has said that the Government will give all the help they can to the plane spotters; that the Foreign Secretary has called the sentences disproportionate; and that both the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have said that they have spoken to their opposite numbers several times about the case. Is it not plain from the lengths to which the Government are going that, whatever Ministers say, the Government do consider it a travesty of justice that a woman sitting in a van completing a crossword puzzle should receive a sentence for espionage? As the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have to go to these extraordinary lengths to give whatever limited help they can to protect people from the vagaries of Greek justice, is it not clear that there is infinitely greater scope for capriciousness from the European arrest warrant? Will the Government therefore either build in safeguards to the proposals or, better still, drop the matter completely?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, I would like to comment on those points, but I cannot because the case is subject to appeal. However, extradition was not an issue in this case—

A Noble Lord

Oh!

Lord Rooker

The arrest took place in Greece, not the United Kingdom, so the issue of the European arrest warrant does not arise and one cannot connect the two matters. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, for various reasons, may want to use the case as an argument against the European arrest warrant, and I have no doubt that he will do so eventually, but I do not think that the argument holds water. The case is subject to appeal and I think that we should leave it there. When we have the extradition Bill in front of us, there will be plenty of opportunities in this House and in the other place to express all our feelings about other countries' judicial systems.

Lord Goodhart

My Lords, I must declare an interest as a trustee of Fair Trials Abroad, an organisation which has been assisting the defendants in this case. Does the Minister agree that there are serious concerns about the procedure in this case, including for example the fact that the hearing lasted for a more or less continuous period of 14 hours? Does he agree that it is of the highest importance that member states of the European Union should be prepared to adopt and observe common minimum standards of procedure in parallel with the European arrest warrant?

Lord Rooker

Yes, my Lords; I agree entirely with the latter remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. We have to do that. I believe that such steps in any reasonable judicial system would obviate the need for the type of hearings that took place in this case.

Lord Waddington

My Lords, surely the Minister will agree that a project such as the European arrest warrant can work only if the countries concerned have complete confidence in the other countries' judicial systems. How can it be said that we have really reached the stage at which the various countries involved in this project have such confidence?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, if and when the European arrest warrant is part of the process, anyone in this country subject to the warrant because of an allegation in another country will be entitled to a hearing before a British judge and to full rights of appeal to higher British courts. It is therefore not a question of people being lifted from this country by foreign police as suggested in the fanciful remarks of some noble Lords. The full legal process will be available in this country. We have already made it clear that, if the alleged crime is not a crime in this country, thank you very much, it will not apply.

Lord Kingsland

My Lords, when the Minister introduces his implementing Bill in July, will he undertake to your Lordships' House to include a clause prohibiting extradition unless a judge in this country is satisfied that the criminal procedures of the receiving state comply with Articles 5 and 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, I do not want to play with words, but I sincerely hope that I will not be introducing a Bill in this place in July. This summer, the Government are publishing a draft extradition Bill—that is our intention—which will contain the review of extradition law with which everyone is familiar and the European arrest warrant with the intention of legislating in the next Session. I do not know whether the Bill will be introduced in this House or in the other place, but, for my own personal convenience, it may be better if it goes to the other place first. Those decisions have not been made. However, we would not introduce legislation that was incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

Lord Elton

My Lords, we have been assured that the terms of the arrest warrant will be subject to parliamentary approval in the legislative process which the Minister has just described. However, is it not the case that the terms themselves are circumscribed by the European framework decision? Will the Minister undertake that the legislation will be completed before the framework decision makes it impossible for Parliament to assert its will?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, I do not think that I can give the noble Lord the commitment he seeks because I do not have the facts of the negotiations or the relevant dates. However, in introducing the legislation, we shall not seek to short-change anyone of their human rights. I cannot pre-empt the way in which the legislation deals with the terms of the final framework document. However, I realise that the Bill, when it is considered by Parliament, will have to contain an English translation of the terms that the noble Lord mentioned so that we do not get lost in a myriad of crimes which may not necessarily fit our terminology and language, and so that we can understand, in the United Kingdom context, the types of crime we are talking about.

Lord Swinfen

My Lords, does the Minister think that if he were to be tried in another country of the European Union, he would get a fair trial in all member countries?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, I regret to say that I did not catch the first part of the noble Lord's question.

Lord Swinfen

My Lords, I asked the Minister whether, if he were to be tried in another country of the European Union, he thinks he would get a fair trial in each of those countries.

Lord Rooker

My Lords, I hope that that is a purely hypothetical question to which I shall not attempt a hypothetical answer.