Gibraltar (Hansard, 14 May 2002)

§ Lord Waddington
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether, before entering into the present negotiations with Spain about Gibraltar, they sought an undertaking from the Spanish Government that the ban on access to Gibraltar from Spain by air or ferry will cease.

§ The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)
My Lords, we did not seek such prior undertakings because, as the Brussels communiqué of 1984 makes clear, such matters should be settled in the context of the Brussels Process talks. These talks continue. Our aim throughout has been for greater stability, greater freedom and greater prosperity for Gibraltarians.

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply, and that she has taken the trouble to come to the House to give it. However, I have to ask her this important question. What is the point in proceeding further with these talks when the British Government and the Spanish Government between them seem to have made it absolutely certain that any deal will be rejected by Gibraltar? The Spanish Government have made no promise to lift their illegal blockade; and the British Government have as good as indicated that they will concede the principle of joint sovereignty. Will anything be left other than disillusionment? Would it not be better to break off the talks now? There is a very good reason for doing so in view of Spanish intransigence as regards the base.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, the point of the talks that we are undertaking is what it always was: to attempt to achieve a settlement in regard to a matter which has caused a great deal of difficulty between ourselves and one of our major allies in the European Union—a country for which we have great regard—in order to try to ensure that the standard of life of the people of Gibraltar is improved. What we are trying to achieve is the free flow of people, goods and services from Gibraltar to the Spanish mainland. We are trying to achieve a financial services hub for Andalucia and the wider region; to bring jobs and prosperity to people in Gibraltar; and to improve the communications— the airport and the ferry—in the way suggested by the noble Lord. I remind him that Mr Caruana himself said that there is no harm in proposals being put to Gibraltar to accept or reject, provided that the exercise is genuinely democratic. That is what we are engaged in.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, now that the 30-year rule allows us to see what was happening in 1971, is the Minister aware that in that year the then Conservative Foreign Secretary was seriously entertaining the idea of yielding sovereignty to Spain in return for a long leaseback arrangement? Is she further aware that the compromise was floated within the Foreign Office that sovereignty might be offered to the Order of St John of Malta—the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which was looking around for something to be sovereign over—and that a senior Foreign Office official scribbled in the margin of the document containing the proposal: I would rather entrust Gibraltar to the Young Liberals"? Is the Minister also aware that the national chairman of the Young Liberals in 1971 is now the Minister responsible for negotiations with Spain over Gibraltar?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
Well, my Lords, how very wise he was in 1971. By a lucky coincidence the Minister is now taking the negotiations forward. Interesting as the reflections on events in 1971 are, the fact is that in 1984 it was members of Her Majesty's Official Opposition who set up the Brussels Process under which we have been negotiating. It is important to concentrate on the facts rather than on the myth. The United Kingdom will not end Gibraltar's link with Britain. We would not pave the way for Spanish control of Gibraltar. We would not end the military arrangements that we have on Gibraltar. All these matters have been circulating as myths, and that is not the basis on which Her Majesty's Government have been proceeding.

§ Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, perhaps I may express sympathy for the Minister in regard to the minor injury that she seems to have suffered and wish her a rapid recovery. As to the matter of access to Gibraltar, is it not a fact that the ferries operated up to 1969, and the air links up to 1978? Both were terminated by unilateral action by the Spanish Government. Is not the whole question of access being used as a bargaining tool by Spain in the current, sadly mishandled negotiations—which, far from helping the Brussels Process, are clearly putting the entire system at risk? Would it not be wiser now, and a matter of common sense, to let the negotiations lapse? Should not the Prime Minister tell Mr Aznar that on Monday? If the negotiations are to be restarted, they should include Gibraltar in a proper way. They should ensure that Spain's disregard of its EU obligations to Gibraltar and its lack of respect for Gibraltar's rights under the EU are properly corrected, so that there is a genuine concern for the future of Gibraltar and that it is not settled over the heads of the people of Gibraltar?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, nothing will be settled over the heads of the people of Gibraltar, because, as the noble Lord knows full well, any agreement will be put to a referendum of the people of Gibraltar and they will have the final say. Of course it is important that proper links are established back with Gibraltar, but, as the noble Lord knows, as things stand that is not possible, given the rival expectations of the Government of Spain and the people of Gibraltar. That is what we have been trying to sort out, under a process that was established when the noble Lord's party was in office. We must continue to do what we believe to be right and in the interests of the people of Gibraltar, knowing that they will have a full say in the final decision.
I thank the noble Lord very much for his sympathy. It just goes to show that women of a certain age should not jump off garden walls.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, it is a long time since 1984, when the Brussels Process started. Is not the Spanish Government's ban contrary to the European Unions policy of freedom of the skies? The fact that Gibraltar is involved should be irrelevant.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, that is very much the view of the Government. Alas, it is not shared by the Government of Spain. They have a claim for sovereignty over Gibraltar, which we do not recognise, given the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht. It is not possible to over-emphasise the importance of trying to get an airport in Gibraltar, which would serve not only the people of Gibraltar, but the people of the region and would act as a magnet for prosperity in the region. The same is true of establishing a ferry in the region. At this stage it is very attractive for those who oppose what the Government are doing, for reasons that I find hard to understand, to try and pick out separate little items of discussion. We have to look at the package of agreements that will be reached at the end of this painstaking process.