Middle East: Holy Places (Hansard, 8 May 2002)

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government attach great importance to ensuring access to holy places throughout Israel and the Occupied Territories. We remain concerned at the continuing stand-off at the Church of the Holy Nativity in Bethlehem. Some progress has been made through negotiations, including the release of a number of civilians and the provision of food. There are indications that a formula has been found which may be acceptable to the parties. We hope to receive further news on that soon.
I should also point out that Her Majesty's Government have condemned the further appalling loss of civilian life as a result of the suicide bombing yesterday evening in Rishon le Zion. The cycle of violence has to stop. Both sides must demonstrate, 1146 through their actions, their commitment to peace. That requires a withdrawal, a sustainable ceasefire and the resumption of dialogue.

§ Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has said this afternoon in your Lordships' House. I agree with her that the cycle of violence will only be deepened by the appalling deaths yesterday of 15 Israeli citizens in a suicide attack. Such actions retard the objective of achieving the goal of peace. Neither the blind violence of terrorism nor the violence of war in revenge can create a way forward.
As the siege at the Church of the Holy Nativity enters its fifth week, can the Minister shed any light on the debacle which took place yesterday when the careful arrangements agreed for the removal of 13 Palestinian militants from the church and the subsequent release of the remaining captives were reduced to chaos? Can she tell noble Lords how that occurred and whether Her Majesty's Government are now playing any role in brokering a way forward? Furthermore, can she shed any light on the condition of the captives who remain in the church? What access do they have to food and water?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, the suicide bombing incident yesterday was truly appalling. We recognise that President Arafat has condemned the attack, which is welcome. However, I think that Israel has a right to expect more. President Arafat has demonstrated unequivocally that he is prepared to take action against those responsible and to try to put in place measures to prevent further attacks.
With regard to the position in Bethlehem, I understand that this matter is still under discussion. Various newspaper reports have been written about what went on yesterday. What I can say to noble Lords is that Italy is a possible final destination for some of the armed Palestinians in the church. I cannot confirm the number because that is still a matter of dispute. Secretary of State Colin Powell has been in touch with various parties and the Italian Government are considering a request to take the Palestinian militants.
At this stage, I am not in a position to comment any further. There is still a certain amount of confusion as regards who said what to whom yesterday. No doubt that confusion will unravel in due course. We must hope that a solution is found as quickly as possible. As I came into the Chamber this afternoon, the most recent update was that we still do not have a definitive position.

§ Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, we on these Benches wish to associate ourselves with the Minister's condemnation of the recent suicide bombing incident which has led to terrible casualties. We express our profound sympathy for those who have been affected.
Turning to the Question before the House, perhaps I may also ask the Minister whether, in the slightly longer term—given the peace conference that is to take place—any consideration has been given to the proposals raised at the Camp David and Taba 1147 negotiations; that is, giving international standing to the square mile which constitutes almost all of the most crucial holy places within both Israel and Palestinian territory: the Temple Mount, the Church of the Holy Nativity, the Wailing Wall and so forth? Discussions at the time turned on agreeing a form of "Vatican" settlement; that is, an area that would be neutral and guaranteed by all the great powers.
Although I realise that the Minister will not be able to respond at the moment, would she consider whether some form of international control and even some possible "internationalisation" of that small area of holy places in Jerusalem might help to move away a little from the genuine horror of the events at the Church of the Holy Nativity and, before that, the conflicts which arose over the status of and access to the Temple Mount?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
I am sure that the noble Baroness knows that the status of Jerusalem and its environs which comprise and embrace the holy places mentioned by the noble Baroness has been a matter which the parties had decided would be for "final status" talks. It is a great sadness to note that, given where we are at the moment, those final status talks now appear to be little more than a remote dream. However, I hope and believe that these issues will be revisited once more.
The noble Baroness is quite right to remind the House that the United States has proposed an international conference. We very much support that proposal because we want to re-establish the political process. We do not believe that anything can be solved through this unending cycle of violence. In the course of the next few months, but before the conference is due to be held, we shall be considering all the items that should be included on a conference agenda. I am sure that the status of the holy places will form a part of those considerations.

§ Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, we on these Benches also endorse the words of the noble Baroness, deploring the senseless and appalling slaughter outside Tel Aviv last night. It represents one more swathe of blood in this ghastly scenario. However, in even uttering such words, one wonders what good it is doing: we go on wringing our hands while the situation gets worse and worse.
Following on the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, I wish to put to the Minister one question on the matter of the holy places. Did not the Barak plan propose quite detailed arrangements in Jerusalem for safeguarding the holy places on an international basis? The plan would have assured access for all those in the four quarters of Jerusalem. Is not that the kind of plan for which we should now be striving? Regrettably, and for reasons that I still do not fully understand, Chairman Arafat and his colleagues turned the plan down.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, the fact is that the negotiations held at Camp David on the 1148 Barak plan fell short of the permanent status settlement which all parties had sought. Of course the noble Lord is right to note that both the Israeli and the Palestinian people continue to suffer as a result. However, unfortunately the issues with regard to permanent status were simply not negotiable at the time.
I think that the noble Lord was a little unfair to say that all we are doing is wringing our hands on this issue. I can assure noble Lords that my right honourable friends the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister are in constant touch with their opposite numbers on this issue. They are doing everything they can to argue for a peace process to be taken forward. I hope that noble Lords do not doubt my noble friends' sincerity in that endeavour.