Liverpool

HL Deb 20 March 2002 vol 632 cc1441-62

8.35 p.m.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, in opening this debate, I start from the premise that Liverpool is a great city, recognised as such worldwide because of its historic port and shipping activities, sporting achievements, artistic and musical heritage and pre-eminence in the world of entertainment, and because of the very many personalities whose names are synonymous with Liverpool, including Ken Dodd, Cilia Black, the Beatles—need I go on? Liverpool's international reputation is well established, and its rich ethnic mix— which includes the longest-established Chinese community in the country—bears witness to its international past.

Liverpool is also well recognised nationally as an ancient city granted its Royal Charter as a borough and a port as long ago as 1207 by King John. It has produced famous lawyers from F E Smith to Rose Heilbron and our very own Attorney-General. It has also produced famous doctors and famous politicians, from Gladstone to Harold Wilson, in addition to many of those who will contribute to this short debate. Liverpool certainly holds the record for an incredible number of firsts in the social and educational spheres and in the voluntary sector. For example, the very first citizens advice bureau was established in Liverpool, and the concept of soup kitchens began there. One of the first schools of tropical medicine was founded in Liverpool, and the first special school for handicapped children began there. The world's first underwater telephone cable was laid between Liverpool and 13ilbao because of their shipping ties. Those are only a few of Liverpool's firsts.

Like many great industrial cities and ports, however, Liverpool has experienced a post-war decline in its prosperity and a depletion in its population. It is now in the process of seeking a new identity for the future. This debate is intended to acknowledge and encourage all those who are working towards that future.

Noble Lords may well ask why we are having this debate today. The noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and I have for some time been discussing the possibility of a "good news" debate. We had hoped for a slot last month, at the end of February, during "Liverpool Week", when a number of events were held in and around Parliament celebrating success on Merseyside. We also want, of course, to prepare and excite people about the 800th anniversary, in 2007, of Liverpool's city status. We also hope for a successful outcome to Liverpool's bid to be Europe's city of culture in 2008. Now therefore seems to be a good time for this debate.

Perhaps I should explain my personal involvement. Although riot born and bred in Liverpool, I can claim to have been a twinkle in the eye there. My mother's family is a Liverpool family, and she was a teacher there before her marriage. My father, then working for the Canadian Pacific Steamship Company, superintended the movements of the great liners such as the "Empress of Britain" and the "Empress of England" which, during the war, served in the convoys that provided the country with a lifeline. I have therefore known Liverpool all my life. One may therefore imagine my surprise and delight when, with that background, I was elected as Member of the European Parliament for Liverpool in 1979, in the first direct elections.

I was there at the time of the Toxteth riots and urged the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, who was then a European Commissioner, to provide European Community help and support. He did, as did the noble Lord, Lord Richard, who succeeded him. Ii was also at the time that Michael Heseltine set tip the Merseyside Development Corporation to open up the South Docks and to restore the Albert Dock to its present glory, which includes the splendid Maritime Museum and the Tate of the North. That led to the International Garden Festival in 1984.

The city has gradually been transformed and the work of very many organisations, such as the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce, the Merseyside Partnerships, the Merseyside Special Investment Fund, the Liverpool Biennial, and many other organisations, businesses and individuals have all contributed. If tourism is to be part of Liverpool's future, the foundations and infrastructure are clearly there and the environment can provide a jumping-off ground for new ventures and industries, as well as maintaining the many established industries that still exist in Liverpool.

I cannot let the occasion pass, especially in the context of Liverpool's cultural heritage and its bid for the city of culture status, without drawing attention to national museums and galleries on Merseyside, which are part of the transformation that has taken place in Liverpool. As a former trustee, I can say that everyone involved with the different parts of the museums and galleries on Merseyside has worked tremendously hard to ensure that the people of Merseyside can be aware of their heritage, proud of their past and able to show it off to others.

I can certainly recommend a visit to the Walker, with its magnificent permanent collection and the new galleries that are currently housing a splendid Romney exhibition and which are due to show the first exhibition of the paintings of Sir Paul McCartney later in the year. In addition to the Walker, there is the Maritime Museum, to which I have referred, and the Museum of Liverpool Life, which is currently undergoing yet another transformation but will be open again next year to show off many of the treasures that have been collected in the great port of Liverpool over the years.

There is a great deal more that I should like to say about Liverpool as a city of education, its sporting prowess and why it is one of the best places in the country in which to live, work, invest and visit. But time does not permit me to expand greatly. In any event, other noble Lords who are contributing to the debate will cover these matters probably far better than me. I thank all those who will contribute to the debate and say in passing how sad I am that the Viscount Mersey and the Earl of Derby are not now entitled to participate as they have both contributed a great deal to Liverpool life over the years. However, I am glad that my noble friend Lord Liverpool will be contributing to the debate.

By promoting the debate I am asking the Government to acknowledge Liverpool's achievements and efforts to emerge from its great industrial past, and to meet the challenges of the 21st century head on. I am also asking the Government to continue to support Liverpool's efforts and I hope that the Minister when replying can give us those assurances.

8.44 p.m.

Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank

My Lords, I am an unqualified Liverpool loyalist, so I greatly welcome the initiative that the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, has taken in tabling this Unstarred Question for debate.

My comments will be brief, but I wish to draw attention to the circumstances in which I grew up, and to make a brief comment on the essence of Liverpool. I was born and brought up in Liverpool, like my father, my grandfather and my great-grandfather. My grandfather and my great-grandfather were born in Liverpool 8. I grew up in the 1930s and 1940s and went to Sudley Road council school near Aigburth Vale and then to Quarry Bank high school, Calderstones, from which I took my title. I hope that your Lordships will allow me to say that I was taught in the scholarship class, as it was then called, in 1939 by Miss Budd. I am glad to say that Miss Budd is still alive and well, aged 103, and I pay tribute to her and all those who taught pupils like me. They were devoted teachers and we are greatly in their debt. As I have said, I took my title from Quarry Bank school and I am pleased to have the opportunity to say how much I benefited from my experience at Sudley Road and Quarry Bank schools.

Although it would be a very risky undertaking, I think that I could still ride a bicycle blindfold through the city as I once knew it. There have been changes but much is similar and I can identify with Liverpool at that time. We lived about four miles from the centre of Liverpool and I remember that I used to go down to town by tram, where there were all sorts of activities. I listened to orchestral music for the first time at the Philharmonic Hall, conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent. I went to the Christmas plays at the Liverpool Playhouse, a great repertory theatre. I visited the university, which is strong on history, medicine and architecture. I often went to the Walker Gallery to see its fine collection of pre-Raphaelites. I remember that I saw them for the first time as a teenager and was a little uncertain as to whether I liked pre-Raphaelites. As time has passed, I realise the great benefit of having visited such galleries.

I admired St George's Hall, where I saw the results of the 1945 election as a 16 year-old. Much later, I bought a fine print that hangs on my wall at home. There is also the Picton Library, where I studied, and the neighbouring William Brown Library. Earlier, in the May blitz of 1941, many of the buildings were badly damaged by high explosives and fire. One of the victims was the William Brown Library which lost nearly 300,000 books. I was standing in my garden one afternoon when I was about 12 when the sky suddenly darkened and large black flakes fell to ground. The burning pages had been carried upwards in the vortex of the blaze, and cinders with the faint imprint of language were now floating down four miles from the city centre.

I could refer to other aspects of how I lived my life there. I was a strong supporter of Liverpool Football Club. I played tennis and cricket and watched both in the fine parks. I supported what was called the Mississippi Jazz Band and other examples of popular music which led indirectly to the Beatles and to what has evolved since. I am tempted to continue my voyage of nostalgia. I hope that my remarks are relevant to the text of the Unstarred Question in the context of Liverpool's achievements.

I shall summarise what might be five characteristics of Liverpool, which are relevant to the nature of the city. First, Liverpool was a great sea port. It set its character in that respect. The port is at the heart of its identity. Secondly, Liverpool is a tough city. It made some people rich and some people poor. It was, and is, a city with warts and all. It was not, and is not, a genteel and soft place. Again, we must take account of that. That is part of the character it has become. Thirdly, Liverpool had a significant number of immigrants and many seafarers. It has had, and has, great ethnic diversity; what the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, referred to as racial mix. That caused problems and we must recognise that. However, at the same time it gave Liverpool depth and variety and made it an exciting and cosmopolitan place. Fourthly—this is rather an obvious cliché—Liverpool has both continuity and change. As part of its inheritance, I refer to its fabric, its buildings. I greatly welcome the announcement yesterday of the partnership between English Heritage and the city council which is hoping to restore those buildings now at risk from the 2,500 listed. Fifthly, civic loyalty and civic pride are relevant. Liverpool has had its ups and its downs. There have been some bad years, damaging to its citizens and making it a by-word for local government disaster. But now the news is good. There is now a high quality of leadership. I hope that all parties will work together in putting the city first.

Liverpool is a unique place. It has been moulded and toughened by circumstances and has survived full of vigour. It is a great, resilient city. I hope that the Minister will give a warm and unambiguous endorsement to our message.

8.53 p.m.

Lord Alton of Liverpool

My Lords, the whole House is indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for tabling this Unstarred Question. She made a positive and well-informed speech which eloquently set the scene.

This is a rare and welcome opportunity to flag up the significant social and cultural developments that have been achieved by the City of Liverpool. I declare my interest by virtue of the Chair that I hold at Liverpool John Moores University; as a director of its Foundation for Citizenship; a director of the Merseyside Special Investment Fund and patron or officer of a number of voluntary organisations and charities in Liverpool. Perhaps adding to the list of firsts that the noble Baroness laid before your Lordships' House, the NSPCC, of which I am president of a local branch, was founded in Liverpool. The noble Baroness also mentioned the previous involvement in your Lordships' affairs of the Earl of Derby. His wife is the president of Zoe's Place, the first hospice in the country to care for dying babies, following in the footsteps of the work begun by the NSPCC a century ago.

It will be 30 years ago in May, while a student in the city, that I was elected to Liverpool City Council and subsequently served as its deputy leader and chairman of its housing committee. In addition to my time in local government, I was privileged to serve for 18 years in another place as Member of Parliament for Liverpool Edge Hill and for the Liverpool Mossley Hill constituencies. I am glad to be able to say to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, that the two schools he mentioned, Sudley Road and Quarry Bank, Calderstones, were both in that constituency of Mossley Hill.

There is no doubt that the 1980s were a bleak decade which the city lived through and that the following decade was spent in reclaiming lost ground. Tonight we meet in happier circumstances, able to celebrate significant progress and achievements in a new chapter of Liverpool's life.

Although there always will be plenty more to do, I warmly congratulate the leaders of the city council and the local community on forging new partnerships and creative relationships. Both Mike Storey, the leader of the council, and Gideon Ben Tovim, who leads the Labour Opposition, have behaved in a constructive way in addressing the needs of the city. That has altered the outside world's perception of Liverpool and created a climate in which new investment and change have become possible. Earlier in the month the city at last shed the unwelcome and invidious title of levying the highest council tax in the country, and the council's 3 per cent tax reduction has been generally welcomed.

Tonight is a chance to celebrate a number of Liverpool's achievements, but real challenges remain. Although the city's economy is steadily improving, it still lags behind both the North West and the UK average when measured against a number of indicators. The ILO unemployment rate in Liverpool stands at 6.8 per cent compared with 5.2 per cent across the North West and 3.2 per cent nationally. GDP per capita for Liverpool is £10,886, which is 86 per cent of the UK average. Average growth is 3.8 per cent, compared with 5.3 per cent for the UK.

But the good news is that Liverpool is bucking the current UK trend of increasing unemployment with the number unemployed and claiming benefit falling for several consecutive months. The city has moved from 67th to 35th in the UK's top locations to do business and ranks joint third with London in the UK inner-city 100 index of fastest growing businesses.

Over the past four months the Liverpool Business Centre has taken over 300 inquiries for industrial and office space totalling some 250,000 square feet. The sale of the Cunard Building for around £18 million, £3 million ahead of the guide price, and the sale or the Port of Liverpool building, also underline the buoyancy of the local economy.

There have always been two tales to tell of this city. Too often we hear only the negative stories. These are some of the facts of life in the greater Liverpool area today. More than 15,000 people are employed in the automotive sector alone, with over £2 billion investment in the past 10 years. It was a particularly great achievement to secure the new Jaguar car for Merseyside. Retail growth in the city centre location is 11.4 per cent, twice the national average, and the fastest growing in the UK. Liverpool is the number one call centre in the UK, with a further 700 jobs announced in November. Twenty-two thousand people are employed in leisure and tourism, with 19 million visitors spending £600 million annually. Each year 4.5 million people come to the Albert Dock alone, and many see there the moving exhibitions on slavery and the Irish famine that are commemorated in the Maritime Museum. An application for world heritage status has been sought for the waterfront and for part of the city centre. When he replies, perhaps the Minister can tell us whether there is any up-to-date news on the status of that application.

The Port of Liverpool is handling record levels of cargo, some 13 million tonnes per year. As a Liverpool MP I was involved in the successful campaign to create a free port in Liverpool. I am glad to tell your Lordships' House that it is now the largest in the UK. Next month the new ro-ro terminal for freight and passengers will open, entrenching a cultural and economic link with Ireland.

The construction industry is anticipated to be involved in building work worth £1.4 billion over the next five years. The £8.7 million FACT centre (the Foundation for Art and Creative Technology) which is due to open in the autumn will be Britain's principal electronic arts agency, while the Kings Dock Arena development and the Paradise Street development will herald further regeneration and jobs. Only last week Mrs Cherie Booth QC and Yoko Ono unveiled the John Lennon statue at what has become one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. Last year there were more than 2 million passengers. Approximately £50 million of investment has been committed in the last four years.

The strengthened relationships between the Government Office on Merseyside, the European Union's Objective One Programme, the Chamber of Commerce and the associated private sector businesses and the local authority have all made these achievements possible. Some questions still remain to be resolved and, again, when the Minister comes to reply perhaps he can say when the DTLR response to the business case for the proposed Merseytram link to the city's cultural sites will be made.

I should like to say something further about the city's cultural achievements, to which both the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, referred. Before boarding the train at Lime Street on Monday I purchased the new publication of the Liverpool Echo entitled 100 Liverpool Facts. The Echo has enthusiastically supported the city's bid to become the City of Culture. This supplement, which I shall lend to the Minister after the debate, brilliantly sets out a compelling case for Liverpool. The recent launch of Liverpool's bid at the London Tate Gallery—at which the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, and I were able to be present—led by the indefatigable Professor Peter Toyne, set out why Liverpool really is "the world in one city". I hope that that bid is successful.

Last month I celebrated Chinese New Year in Liverpool with my goddaughter and her family, to some of whom I taught English as a student volunteer on an immigrant language scheme 30 years ago. We were sitting in the shadow of the magnificent Chinese arch at the entrance to China town. Nearby, in the summer, there will be the Hope Street Festival, in June the Mersey River Festival, the Comedy Festival in July, the Beatles Week in August and the biennial arts festival in September.

This year the Liverpool Biennial—a privately inspired event—will bring together five core strands. But also as a centre for popular music, film, broadcasting and sport Liverpool is among the country's leaders.

There have been some fascinating spin-offs from this. The Greenhouse multicultural play and arts project, for instance, began with two women identifying the need for multi-cultural play activity in Toxteth. It now has a turnover of almost £1 million with a participation of over 5,000 people. The city's two universities and its college of education attract between them some 50,000 students. The institutions, their staff and students make an incalculable contribution to the life of the city.

Higher Education contributes in numerous ways to the city's economy and its social life, but also in a city where turn-out in elections has reached dangerously low levels it has been engaging in renewing civic life. Over the past four years I have staged a series of almost 30 public lectures on behalf of Liverpool John Moores University. Some of your Lordships have participated in these. Named for the Liverpool abolitionist poet and MP, William Roscoe, these have attracted audiences of up to 1,300 people. The theme of those lectures has been citizenship.

The quality of the lectures and the debates that have followed are another aspect of the vibrancy and vitality of the city. They show a city ready to engage in profound and difficult questions, in addition to being a city that knows how to enjoy itself. In the words of one of its most famous sons, what it needs now is "a little help from its friends". In the past its reputation was marred by confrontation. Today it deserves to succeed.

Tonight's brief debate is a welcome opportunity to underline its impressive achievements and its newfound confidence. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the chance to say so.

9.3 p.m.

Lord Greaves

My Lords, I am tempted to say to myself, "Follow that". I, too, am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for asking this question and introducing the debate. I am particularly privileged to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, whose contribution to the welfare and development of Liverpool over the past 30 years or more has been well demonstrated by his speech just now.

I first remember the noble Lord when he was chairman of South Liverpool Young Liberals, if I remember correctly. In those days he was a rebel to those of us in establishment positions in the Young Liberals nationally. But, I have to say that he has come on a bit since then. I particularly remember him as chairman of the housing committee on the city council in a previous period of Liberal administration on the city council. He was in those days a radical and innovative chairman of that committee in very difficult circumstances. He was a model for many of us at that time.

Liverpool is a special place. I am one of the small minority of people in today's debate who is not a Liverpudlian, or who has any particularly close connections with the city. Most of my connections with it have been in going to help my political colleagues in elections there. Despite that, they sometimes win the elections.

However, there is something special about Liverpool. There is a vibrancy, a feel, about the place, which is shared by some other British cities. One thinks of Glasgow as being a similar city. The people are a bit different from people everywhere else. The tragedy of the city is that it has been in decline for so many years. Its population over a period of 45 years has fallen from around 1 million to 400,000. That is astonishing. Many of those people moved out on overspill schemes and so on, and they, their families and descendants now live in places such as Skelmersdale, Huyton, and Kirkby.

Nevertheless, despite that, for many of us who live in other parts of the North West—as I do—Liverpool is a beacon, and always has been one, for what can be done in very difficult circumstances. It also performs one other very useful function for those of us in the North West: it acts as a counterbalance to Manchester. It prevents Manchester thinking that it runs everything all the time. That is a very useful counterbalance for those of us in the more northerly parts of the region who sometimes find it difficult to get a look in.

Liverpool is also a city which has an intense sense of pride. The spirit of regeneration in the city—not just a physical but a spiritual and a civic regeneration—is very noticeable and marked. One Member of our Benches tonight was bound to stand up and express some pride in the fact that the present civic leadership of the city is Liberal Democrat. The achievements of the present Liberal Democrat administration of Liverpool in the four years since it took over are quite astounding. I would not be able to say that of all the councils in the country that we run—do not ask me for names—but as regards Liverpool the administration is an inspiration to the rest of our party and it should also be to the rest of local government. That administration has shown what can be done.

Nowadays, people say that local councils no longer have any powers because everything goes to partnerships or is centralised in Whitehall. Liverpool is a very good example of where in a big city at least an enterprising and progressive civic leadership can actually achieve a huge amount. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, it followed a very difficult period which included an era when it appeared that the people running the city council were engaged in some sort of latter-day class war and were at great risk of bringing the city to its knees.

Liverpool is not a rich place on the whole and yet it has had the highest council tax in the country. One of the direct achievements of the council is that it has been able to hold the level of council tax for three years. This year it has been able to reduce it by 3 per cent, even allowing for increases in the precepts from other bodies. That is a great achievement. If that were taking place at the cost of cutting services, it would not be an achievement at all, but it is not. The council has been able to find the magic formula to cut costs and at the same time put into effect very significant increases in services.

I would like briefly to say what has happened in the Education and Lifelong Learning Service, as it is called, in Liverpool. Noble Lords may remember that in May 1999, there was a damning Ofsted report on the education administration of Liverpool. Ofsted itself now cites Liverpool as the best example of a turn-round in performance and expertise. In fact, Ofsted is now using people in Liverpool as an example of good practice for other authorities in the same circumstances. The school effectiveness work of the authority has just won the Local Government Chronicle education team of the year award. The intervention work for failing schools in the city is outstanding. In May 1999 there were 17 schools in Liverpool under special measures. At the end of August this year, it is confidently expected that that number will be reduced to zero. In terms of pupil attainment in public examinations and tests, the results have improved every year to record levels.

I do not believe that anyone in Liverpool is complacent about the situation. People are saying that it is improving from a low base, but from a situation in which the administration was a shambles and morale was at rock bottom. It is being turned around. Liverpool even has its own primary-age modern foreign language programme with a three-year project developing nine centres of expertise. That is typical of what is happening in the city.

When we on these Benches look at Liverpool we can be proud. But it is also a beacon for local government generally. It is not just old-fashioned local government. Nowadays, one cannot run a city or a council in the old ways. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, one has to be prepared and able to work with other people. One has to work in partnership with others whether one likes it or not. A great many people do like it. One has also to provide genuine leadership rather than simply administering everything oneself. That is what is happening in Liverpool. Obviously, it is not simply down to the leadership of the council, but down to everyone else it works with, although the leadership of the council is a vital part of it.

I finish with two useful quotes. One is from the right honourable Tony Blair, MP, who, my note says, is the Prime Minister. He said, The last time I was [in Liverpool] there was a real buzz about the place. People can see that things are beginning to happen". Nick Raynsford MP, the local government Minister, said, I have been impressed by the city council's commitment and determination to transform services for the people of Liverpool … which are already beginning to bring change for he better". If noble Lords believe that all I am giving here is a party political broadcast, I also give genuine credit to the Government. Despite the fact that this major city is in Liberal Democrat hands, they have recognised good council leadership and have been able to work hand in hand with it.

9.13 p.m.

Lord Chan

My Lords, I also wish to add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for asking this Unstarred Question on Liverpool. My task is made the more difficult because of the erudite speeches of noble Lords who were born and bred in Liverpool. However, I declare my interest as an academic paediatrician who worked for 17 years in the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine until 1994. I hold an honorary chair in ethnic health in the Department of Public Health of the University of Liverpool. I have also been the Elder of the Liverpool Chinese Gospel Church for the past 23 years.

Having lived in the Wirral for 26 years, after moving from London, and having worked in Liverpool for most of that time, I have observed great improvements and achievements in that great city and among its people. Sadly, Liverpool and its people continue to receive a bad press from sections of the media based in the south of England. Tonight's debate is, therefore, important in that it gives us the opportunity to review and celebrate the real Liverpool. I shall focus on issues of which I have personal experience, and which demonstrate the best of the city.

Liverpool was the world's premier port 150 years ago, and it continued to prosper until after World War II. The city has an area equal to that of Greater London, but its population has declined to about 450,000 from 750,000. Many talented sons and daughters of Liverpool have moved to other parts of Britain and the world to seek their fame, but some have recently returned to invest in their home city. A good example is Sir Paul McCartney—a talented Liverpudlian who returned five years ago to establish the Music and Performing Arts Institute at his former school next to Liverpool cathedral. Students from all over the world have competed to enrol in this reputable institute, and some of its graduates are now making their mark in the world of popular music.

Another cultural achievement for Liverpool has been in the making of films for the cinema and television. Because of its historic houses, buildings and streets, it is a much sought-after location for film crews and famous studios from Hollywood to India. The architecture of these locations spans the Georgian, Victorian, and Edwardian eras. Every week, a film is being made in the streets of Liverpool to be shown on television and cinemas around the world. Liverpool has also developed two other universities besides the University of Liverpool, which was established during the reign of Queen Victoria. All three universities complement each other and attract more than 50,000 students from all parts of the world. My noble friend Lord Alton has described the achievements of Liverpool's John Moore's University, which I admire for taking over many large buildings around the city and developing them into teaching and research centres for subjects that are not available in the University of Liverpool. For example, it has established a bachelor's degree course in public health for non-medical practitioners. Liverpool Hope University, based in Sefton Park, has established courses in multi-cultural and ethnic studies based on Liverpool's multi-ethnic communities and their history.

In 1981, Liverpool faced one of the darkest periods of its history, with the riots in Toxteth between her inner-city population of black and ethnic groups and poor white people and the police. Houses and other buildings were burnt down and tensions were high between young black Liverpudlians and the police. The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, visited Toxteth and was horrified by the dereliction that he saw in the housing stock, and by the exceedingly high unemployment of local people lasting more than a generation. I was privileged to participate, with a large number of people from Toxteth and other parts of Merseyside, in the regeneration of Liverpool set in train by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, who became Minister for Merseyside.

Between 1981 and 1994, I was involved as an advocate, initially for Liverpool's Chinese community. In 1986, this advocacy was extended to the residents of Toxteth by the establishment of the first community clinic in England catering for the needs of people, including minority ethnic people, who wanted to know more about inherited blood diseases such as sickle cell disease, thalassaemia and the red blood cell enzyme, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency. This clinic, run by a specialist nurse, Dorothy Zack-Williams—a black American woman married to a Liverpudlian—is based in a primary health centre, the Abercromby Health Centre. I continue to support this clinic by advising Dorothy, who receives calls for help from all over England, including London.

Toxteth also boasts the very modern Liverpool Women's Hospital, the last to be opened by the late Princess of Wales. It is appropriately located in the inner city where many needy people live, and employs a significant proportion of local people at various levels on its staff. All Toxteth families use the hospital, including refugees, and it has focused on the obstetric needs of female refugees who have suffered from female genital mutilation and who can now safely be delivered of healthy babies.

The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, alluded to the existence of so many black and ethnic minority groups in Liverpool. This is unique, because many of them have been in England for several generations. Liverpool is, therefore, a living social laboratory for the study of multi-ethnic and multi-cultural communities. This opportunity has been ignored for too long, resulting in many black Liverpudlians feeling disfranchised. This is ironic because most black Liverpudlians have one white parent and all have been born in the city. But with better educational achievements of black Liverpudlians in the fields of law, art and sociology, they now feel confident and secure enough to speak with the police without resorting to threats of physical force.

Other ethnic minority communities have also influenced life in Liverpool. Let me take the example of the Chinese community, who first arrived in the city in the mid-1850s. Today, if you look Chinese, no one will ask you where you come from because they assume you are local. Further, the Chinese community has influenced Liverpool to be twinned with China's main port, Shanghai. And the government of Shanghai donated the million pound enormous Chinese arch that stands at the entrance of Nelson Street, the heart of Chinatown. This is the largest Chinese ceremonial arch outside of China.

For the past decade Liverpool City Council has supported and publicised the 15 days of celebrations of the Chinese New Year in partnership with the 10 long-standing Chinese community organisations in Liverpool, including the Chinese masons and the Chinese Christian Church. The traditional dragon dance of the New Year is performed exclusively by white Liverpudlians. Similarly, the Chinese lions are also each made up of two white men. This transference of Chinese cultural activities to the white Liverpudlian community must be unique in Britain and in other parts of the western world.

That surely is an example of cross-cultural appreciation unsurpassed in Britain or anywhere else in the world. For those and all the other achievements described by other noble Lords, I hope that the Minister will support Liverpool in becoming the European City of Culture.

9.21 p.m.

The Earl of Liverpool

My Lords, I join with other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lady Hooper for giving us the opportunity to focus our thoughts on the city of Liverpool this evening. She gave us an excellent synopsis of the many flavours of Liverpool and I learnt a lot, both from her and the other speakers who either live or have greater connections with that city than I have.

I say at the outset that my only direct involvement with the city of Liverpool is that I am patron of a charity called Cancer Resource Store. It helps cancer sufferers and their families who live on Merseyside to obtain medical, nursing, counselling and other care. It provides an invaluable service in an area where, sadly, the incidence of lung cancer is considerably above the national average.

My duties take me to Liverpool only infrequently. But I am always made to feel extremely welcome whenever I visit. I am somewhat reluctant to tell your Lordships about my family tree, but as I am the holder of the title of Liverpool I should like to explain that the Earldom was first granted to my great-great-great-great grandfather in 1796. He held many senior posts in government but I believe it was given in recognition of his initiatives while President of the Board of Trade developing the country's world trade and shipping. As the maritime port of Liverpool was the main beneficiary of this, it was felt appropriate that he should take the name of that great city. His son later became Prime Minister, which I hasten to say is a feat unlikely to be achieved by his great-great nephew.

Nevertheless, I am happy that their past endeavours afforded me the privilege of having a seat in your Lordships' Chamber which enables me to speak on this subject this evening. I am happy to support my noble friend, especially as I believe that Liverpool is in the process of undergoing something of a renaissance. As has already been said, it is mounting a robust hid to he selected as the culture capital of Europe in 2008. The bid will be submitted at the end of this month, with a short-listing in September, and a final decision to be taken by the Prime Minister in March next year.

So what are Liverpool's strengths? It is well known nationally and internationally as a creative city that has bred and exported world-class musicians, writers, film and television programme makers, actors, artists, personalities and, last but not least, comedians. I believe that the so-called creative industries in Liverpool now account for just under 5 per cent of all Merseyside jobs—that is, 16,000 people—and those industries generate an annual turnover of over £485 million.

It is a famous city of learning, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and others. It is the home of the Walker Art Gallery. It is the home of Europe's largest Anglican cathedral. It is a multi-faith, multi-cultural and vibrant society. More generally, and very encouragingly, Merseyside unemployment figures are falling at a faster rate than any other location in the UK.

As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, also said, businesses are finding it attractive as a regional location. A recent Best Locations for Business survey, conducted by the Occupier Market Intelligence Service, showed that Liverpool had moved up 39 places to 28th position— an impressive move up a ladder by any standards.

It is surely Liverpool's long history as a maritime port, however, which gives it its richness of humanity and architecture. The Albert Dock, which was restored and opened as a tourist attraction in 1988, as my noble friend Lady Hooper said, is testimony to that and now attracts millions of visitors every year.

Yesterday marked the launch of a campaign to conserve Liverpool's rich architectural heritage, which has around 2,500 listed buildings. Part of this effort will be to compile a comprehensive heritage map of the city by 2006. More or less in tandem with this, I believe that Liverpool Biennial is producing a contemporary culture map of Liverpool in collaboration with more than 50 private sector partners.

The appetite of the people of Liverpool for art and culture is growing. I read that in a recent MORI poll more people in the city said that they had visited a museum or gallery in the last six months than had watched Everton or Liverpool play football—which is surprising to some. While on the subject of football, I cannot let the opportunity pass without congratulating Liverpool on last night's win over Roma, which now puts them in the quarter-final of the Championship League. Things are definitely going Liverpool's way at the moment.

At the Heritage campaign launch yesterday, the chairman of English Heritage, Sir Neil Cossons, said, There is no other city equivalent to Liverpool…you can walk through Liverpool and see why it was the great seaport it was, and the tremendous commercial dynamic is reflected in shipping offices, the banking quarter and the three wonderful buildings on the waterfront". As I have already said, there is a lot going for this city.

I believe that it was an inspirational decision to give the redeveloped city airport the name of John Lennon. He was undoubtedly a genius both musically and artistically and that his name should live on in this way does the city nothing but credit.

I was lucky enough to meet him once with the other members of the Beatles. Not many noble Lords will be aware of this but in the long distant past I was a drummer with a pop band and we were asked to stand in for them and do what is called a "warm-up" on a television programme called "Ready Steady Go!" at Teddington Studios. We met afterwards backstage and I remember him telling us, with a wink and a smile, that with a lot of practice we could only get better. A backhanded compliment if ever there was one, but it typified his Liverpudlian sense of humour.

As I reach my conclusion I make no apology for repeating that I believe that we are witnessing the renaissance of Liverpool. The city's 800th birthday is in 2007. What a wonderful birthday present it would be for it to be selected as the Cultural Capital of Europe in 2008. There is some stiff competition, but I believe that the indomitable spirit of Merseyside will win through.

9.30 p.m.

Lord McNally

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, may not have been an elected politician in his career, but he certainly knows how to push all the right buttons—for example, congratulating Liverpool Football Club and confessing to have been on the same bill as the Beatles, would, I believe, get him through most public meetings.

Like other speakers, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, with her experience of service to Merseyside, for initiating tonight's debate. I am also pleased that my noble friend Lord Rodgers chose Liverpool as the topic on which he has got back into the saddle as a speaker in this House. Like my noble friend Lord Greaves, I put on record my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his past service to Liverpool, and for the contribution that he continues to make.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, reminded us that Liverpool still has some way to go in terms of economic recovery. My own impression is that Liverpool no longer has a chip on its shoulder about Manchester or Leeds. Indeed, there is a general celebration in the North that those three great cities are growing, recovering and building together.

Why have I put down my name to speak tonight? My father was born in Old Swan in 1899 in Oceanic Road, and my mother was born six months later across the way in Oceanic Road. They were brought up in pre-First World War Liverpool. Although they later moved to Blackpool, my early days were dominated by tales of their childhoods—stories of the Cast Iron Shore, Biscay Bay, the Adelphi, Nanny Conners' lodging house, selling the Liverpool Echo on the day that the "Titanic" sank, Jackson's Rope Works, the Sunlight Soap Works, the Glass House in Old Swan; and, indeed, the policeman who, according to my father, cleared the streets simply by saying, "Clear off!" It was many years later in this House that the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, suggested that my father's version of "Clear off!" might have been bowdlerised for my ears.

When I visited Liverpool as a child in the late 1940s and early 1950s it was with a sense of awe at the power and majesty of the city. I recall the excitement of the trip to New Brighton on the ferry, the talk among my family of the Mecanno, the Automatic, Crawfords biscuit factory, and, of course, Littlewoods and Vernons. Then, in 1981, as a north-west MP, I was asked to go on a round table discussion initiated by Granada Television. It was a terrible and traumatic experience to feel the bleakness of an uncared-for city. This was a city of the Empire—an Atlantic city—which was now facing the wrong way as Britain turned its face towards Europe.

I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, observed that the 1980s was a bleak decade for Liverpool—with its industrial militancy, racial tensions, high crime rate, low educational standards, low skills base, and a shrinking population. As one Liverpudlian once put it to me, it was a "Naples without the sun". Many of those problems were self-inflicted wounds.

In the early 1990s, I was commissioned to assess from a public relations point of view what Liverpool could do to reposition itself. I was actually in Liverpool on the day Mrs Thatcher resigned as Prime Minister. If there had been a vote in Liverpool, Michael Heseltine would have been elected by a large majority. The question that I kept hearing was, "Will Heseltine get it?" The reason, quite frankly, was that Michael Heseltine had shown interest in the city during those bleak times. He had demonstrated that he cared and had shown initiative. I believe that that is still appreciated on Merseyside.

But even 10 years ago the building blocks of "renaissance", as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, pointed out, were there. I should mention Liverpool's marvellous architectural heritage. A number of speakers referred to the new initiative to protect it that was announced just yesterday, and reported in today's edition of the Guardian. The quote from Sir Neil Cossons is worth repeating: There is no other city equivalent to Liverpool in terms of high quality 19th century architecture". He goes on to remind us, as did my noble friend Lord Rodgers, that St George's Hall is Europe's finest neoclassical building. Sir Neil made an important point. He said: Historical buildings should be the key to regeneration, not an obstacle". I would go further. I would say that economic regeneration and cultural and social regeneration go hand in hand.

I am pleased to discover that I share with Tony Blair the opinion that there is a buzz about Liverpool again. I was there just after Christmas and again saw improvements in the public buildings. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I were talking about how John Moores University had at last removed that dreadful eyesore of a hotel that was left derelict for decades. Reporters would come out of Lime Street station, take one look at it, write their story about Liverpool's decline, and get back on the train.

We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Chan, about the drive of the education sector and from a number of speakers about the magnificence of the art galleries, and Liverpool's music and pop heritage. The noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, reminded us of one aspect of sporting heritage: football, where two clubs can have a fierce rivalry without some of the poisonous relationships that bedevil the rivalries between other clubs. Fans, whether blue or red, can go to each other's grounds and go to the pubs afterwards to discuss the game. Long may that continue. Of course, Liverpool also has the Grand National and golf. Tribute has been paid to the John Lennon Airport, which is another imaginative initiative.

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made the point that the regeneration programme, which has been led locally, has been supported nationally. That is greatly appreciated in Liverpool. A strong and adaptable skills base is growing. When I went to the reception given by John Moores University, I was told that students want to stay in Liverpool after graduating. It was pointed out that Ford, a pretty hard-nosed company, did not decide to build Jaguars in Liverpool for the love of it, but because it makes good, sound business sense.

Liverpool has a cultural richness and diversity and the environment is improving all round Liverpool. It has both countryside and sea. It has good communications, although we all know that the West Coast Main Line could do with improvement. As has been said, there is a well-led local authority that is restoring civic pride by example. I recently attended a briefing given by councillor Richard Kemp about public/private partnerships, which seem to be succeeding more in Liverpool than in London, say. There is a joint venture with BT on payroll and human resources. Street cleaning, lighting and highways are all being provided by joint ventures, as are car parks and street parking. There is a genuinely non-ideological approach to public/private partnership, with no inferiority complex on the part of public providers but acceptance that funds and know-how exist in the private sector which benefit the city and its inhabitants.

I cannot finish without paying tribute to another factor which during the 1980s and 1990s built that recovery. I pay tribute to Bishop Warlock and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sheppard. It is suitable that the two cathedrals in Liverpool are linked by Hope Street, because the bishops recognise that Liverpool's greatest asset is its people. They are funny, irreverent, tough, resilient and, as the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, reminded us, very creative. They are citizens of no mean city. My mum and dad would have been very proud of Liverpool today. I know that I am, and I wish it well.

9.39 p.m.

Lord Luke

My Lords, perhaps I may say first that at one stage during this interesting debate I felt that I would be interrupting a mutual admiration society between the Cross Benches and the Liberal Democrat Benches. But my noble friend Lord Liverpool broke the mould, so I can too. Perhaps I may also gently point out to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that my noble friend Lord Liverpool and I have been elected. It is because we have been elected by our hereditary friends that we still serve your Lordships' House.

Like all the preceding speakers, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Hooper for introducing the debate about Liverpool and its culture. It is an enormous subject, and we could have spent much more time discussing Liverpool's centres of learning and centres of art, such as the Walker Gallery, which has been mentioned on several occasions.

Liverpool was, of course, extensively damaged in the Second World War. It took a long time for effective regeneration even to start. I repeat the suggestion made by my noble friend Lady Hooper and others that we must thank my noble friend Lord Heseltine, who, sadly, is not in his place this evening, for the imagination, initiative and sheer energy that he put into starting the regeneration process in Liverpool in the early 1980s.

During my research for the debate, I came across the following description of Liverpool. I was scared that someone else would produce it. Liverpool is described as, A small and picturesque port nestling in the mountains". It comes, as your Lordships will probably not know, from a short and not very distinguished opera by Donizetti, called "Emilia di Liverpool. Emanating from Naples, it has not proved easy to translate into English, especially as England in the 1820s, viewed from Naples, was a distant land with distinct romantic overtones. It has been sung with Joan Sutherland in the name part and performed by the BBC. History does not relate whether it has been performed in Liverpool.

As had been said by several noble Lords, Liverpool's history can be said to have begun effectively in the reign of King John, when a Royal Charter was granted, mentioning 168 merchants. Not much progress appears to have been made with the port through the Middle Ages. Indeed, Liverpool was in decline during the reign of Elizabeth I. However, as soon as a trade route to the new American colonies developed across the Atlantic, Liverpool's prosperity was assured. Even by the early eighteenth century, Liverpool dominated transatlantic commerce. Principally, that meant the slave trade—sadly—then cotton and sugar coming in from the Americas to England. Of course, the shipping of cotton goods From the north-west of England to the colonies came soon after. Then it was immigration into Britain from Ireland and emigration from England to the USA. Liverpool became a great port, which it still is. All that activity produced a cosmopolitan but overcrowded, unhealthy and turbulent city of some 850,000 people in 1931, declining to 425,000 in 2001, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said.

That history produced an ideal breeding-ground for creativity. That has also been mentioned by noble Lords. At present, 4.7 per cent of Merseyside jobs—some 16,000—are in what one might call creative industry, generating £485 million per annum. Arabella McIntyre-Brown says in Liverpool: The First 1000 Years—a splendid book that, I am sure, most noble Lords will have read: Liverpool is not really an English city: from its earliest days as a port, Liverpool has attracted people from other places; people with an appetite for the new and the different; people with the courage to travel and explore; people with ideas and people with the guts to back them. Risk takers; pioneers; entrepreneurs; inventors; reformers. This is not a place for quiet contemplation, but for doing, changing and trying". As we all know, the occasion inspiring the debate is the Liverpool Biennial contemporary arts festival, which runs from 14th September until 24th November this year. However, as several speakers have also pointed out, a longer-term target is the city's bid to become the European capital of culture in 2008. We have heard a great deal about that bid in the contributions made to this evening's debate, in particular the efforts being made by the city itself. If Liverpool wins—some 17 or perhaps 19 other cities think that they may have a better chance of being chosen—it will be a major boost to the arts as well as to the city's general commercial activity.

Winning the bid would also serve as a great encouragement to tourism in the North West. That area has just endured a desperate year and it will take a long time for the tourist industry to build itself up again. If Liverpool wins, then in 2008 not only will there be visitors from abroad, but also visitors will come from the rest of the United Kingdom.

This has been a diverse and wide-ranging short debate. It has informed the House and, it is hoped, it will inform the general public. It has certainly informed me. I have to say that the range of statistics provided by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, slightly lost me, but I shall enjoy reading them in Hansard. As a result of what I have learned about Liverpool, I should very much like to visit the city and hope that I shall be able to arrange to do that soon. I have visited Liverpool only once; by sea from Canada. I do not know it well.

I look forward to listening to the Minister's reply.

9.46 p.m.

Lord Davies of Oldham

My Lords, like all noble Lords who have participated in the debate, I owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for having introduced this important topic. There has been a certain eclectic quality to the contributions which suggests that perhaps I ought to be able to represent some eight or nine government departments in order to respond to all the points that have been raised. At one stage I had thought that I could have left out the Foreign Office, but then the noble Lord, Lord Chan, corrected me on that point by mentioning the Chinese arch.

Questions have been asked of every other department during the course of the debate but I am not equipped to offer effective replies. First, I must confess to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that I have no answer to his question on the tramway link. That has somewhat taken the Department for Culture, Media and Sport by surprise, but I promise that once I have contacted the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions about the issue I shall write to him. I also cannot follow the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, too closely down the by-ways of local government. I hope that he will forgive me for that.

I hope that I have not been wrong in this respect, but I had thought that, given the timing, the main thrust of the debate would relate to the question of Liverpool's bid to become the European Capital of Culture in 2008 because the deadline for submission of those bids falls on 31st March, a point made by several noble Lords. I have not the slightest doubt that Liverpool will submit its bid in time. I am not sure whether it has yet been delivered but I am reassured that it will be sent shortly. Many of the contributions to tonight's debate have been designed, I believe, to strengthen that bid. I am not in a position to adopt anything but the most benign neutrality on the point, as no doubt will be recognised on all sides of the House.

However, noble Lords have certainly succeeded in making a strong case of the virtues of Liverpool. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, stressed with his customary force the important aspect of Liverpool's architectural heritage. It is one that all will greatly respect. No one should underestimate the change in the economic circumstances of the city. We are all well aware of the comparative reduction in the transatlantic sea trade and the development of the European trade. That means that where Liverpool stood 100 years ago, Felixstowe stands today. But even my greatest friends in Suffolk are not prone to advocate the architectural glories of Felixstowe. We all recognise that the great architectural inheritance of Liverpool built over those great years is a major feature of the city and is not a disadvantage to a city bidding to become a capital city of culture.

I was delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, speaking with his customary force and fluency from the Back Benches as he had from the Front Benches. I cannot follow him too far down the road of Liverpool 8 because I have no ancestry at all connected with that area. The best I can do to correct that deficiency is that my eldest son went to Liverpool University and lived in Liverpool 8. So we were working in the opposite direction, but what a great experience it was for him. I hasten to mention that this was a year or two after the great difficulties of the city. We appreciated at that time how fast the city was making a recovery, and due tribute has been paid today to the recovery of the city from those difficult days of the early 1980s.

Primarily, I wish to respond to the broad theme that in 2007 Liverpool will celebrate its 800th anniversary and that it hopes to crown this in 2008 by being the European capital of culture based upon its unique heritage, which combines a diverse population, maritime history, commerce, industry, music, the arts and, of course, sport.

I was particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for emphasising the character, humour and the popular culture of Liverpool, which is one of its great glories. There is a tendency on occasion when one is considering the cultural advantages of a city or region to think only in terms of high culture when we should respect how much popular culture means to the vibrancy of a place. After all, in a democracy, it reflects the culture of a far larger number of people than those who enjoy high culture—although we hope increasingly to ensure greater and greater access to our wonderful cultural opportunities for all our citizens.

That is one of the great features of Liverpool's artistic resources. We applaud the fact that the Tate Gallery in Liverpool has made strenuous efforts to be socially inclusive, to open up its treasures and to inspire in its remarkable works the interest of children and those sections of the population who may not otherwise enjoy the opportunity. It is a great tribute to the Tate that it has broadened its appeal. It has set an example which many other art galleries in the country may wish to follow. So that, again, is another great advantage of the city.

The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, also mentioned the theatre, which he enjoys. He will also recognise that lottery grants to our regional theatres have been significant over the past year. The Liverpool Theatre has benefited to the tune of a £6 million investment. These resources are long overdue in terms of our regional theatres. There has always been a problem in Britain of over-concentration on the incredible resource in the West End, but we also need to cherish those regional theatres to which so many of our citizens have readier access. Again, Liverpool enjoys such an amenity.

Although we shall be awaiting developments in regard to the bid over the next 15 months, Ministers have been active in looking at Liverpool's position. My noble friend Lady Blackstone recently re-opened the Walker Art Gallery following the very significant redevelopment of its facilities in a scheme costing £4.3 million. She also discussed the plans for the Liverpool Biennial at the Tate Gallery and visited the Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts.

Earlier this month, the Minister for Sport was also in the city. He had the enormous benefit of going to the match at which the lights failed for the first half hour. It has been suggested to me that he might claim credit for switching the lights on. I am not too sure that he did that, but he certainly enjoyed the match. What was reflected in his visit—and last night's triumph was another notch in those terms—was that Liverpool is associated right across the nation with sporting prowess, particularly in football. While not wishing ill to any other side in the Premier League, as well as extolling Liverpool FC's achievement, I think we all hope that the city retains a Premier League status for both its football clubs despite the present trials and tribulations.

We should emphasise the way in which Liverpool has been developing in terms of cultural works. A new post of Assistant Executive Director for Culture has been created, giving strong emphasis to the role of culture as a driver of services across the city. There is no doubt that the city is reflecting what we all recognise; namely, that there are new drivers in the economic development of our cities and of our regions.

The noble Lords, Lord Chan and Lord Alton, referred to higher education in that respect. That is an important dimension in the age of lifelong learning. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, also referred to the important role of educational institutions in developing the skills of our nation and enhancing not only our economic development but also the abilities of our citizens to benefit from all aspects ofthe cultural life of the great cities in which they live.

In addition, there is no doubt that we recognise the cultural advantages that this country has in its many great cities, among which Liverpool is outstanding. These factors are increasingly valued both by tourists from abroad and by our fellow countrymen—who are able to travel more easily than in the past and who value the riches which a city like Liverpool is able to offer.

I have very much enjoyed the debate. I refer to the obvious fact that we regarded the debate as being centred primarily on Liverpool's proper expectations and ambitions to fulfil itself in terms of being the EU capital of culture. That will be a significant event for all of us. We all recall with enormous pride just what that meant to the city of Glasgow on the occasion when it enjoyed that privilege. If Liverpool proves to be the fortunate city, I have not the slightest doubt that all the features identified in the debate will be enhanced and developed by that opportunity. I wish the city well, while at the same time saying that perhaps at some distant day I shall be able to come to this Dispatch Box and congratulate the city on such an achievement.

House adjourned at one minute before ten o'clock.