Afghanistan (Hansard, 18 March 2002)

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The Statement is as follows:
"I would like to bring the House up to date by making a Statement about the continuing role of the British Armed Forces in Afghanistan. It is just over 1139 five months since the global coalition, assembled in response to the terrorist attacks in the United States, began military action in Afghanistan. At that time we set out a number of specific short and longer-term campaign aims. These included preventing Osama bin Laden and A1'Qaeda from posing a continuing terrorist threat, breaking the links between Afghanistan and international terrorism and reintegrating Afghanistan as a responsible member of the international community.
"Five months later, it is clear that this action has been remarkably successful. Afghanistan is now a very different country. The Taliban Government, who harboured the A1'Qaeda terrorists, are no more. Terrorist training camps have been put out of action. The first steps towards creating a functioning state have been taken. Aid agencies operate with increasing freedom. Refugees are beginning to return to their homes.
"I am particularly proud of the vital part that British forces have played in this success. I have set out, on a number of occasions, the contribution that they have made to the international coalition—reconnaissance and air-to-air refuelling flights; troops on the ground engaged in operations against A1'Qaeda and Taliban elements; and Royal Navy participation in submarine and interdiction support operations in the Arabian Sea.
"Britain's Armed Forces have also played a significant role leading the International Security Assistance Force in Kabul, with some 1,800 British troops currently deployed with the force. Full operating capability was achieved on time on 18th February, bringing together more than 4,600 troops from 18 different countries in a harsh and demanding environment at a considerable distance from home. I pay particular tribute to General John McColl for his role in this.
"The ISAF is helping the Afghan Interim Authority to provide a secure and stable environment in Kabul. Life in the city is at last beginning to return to some kind of normality, as I was recently able to see for myself.
"The ISAF is already training the first battalion of an Afghan National Guard—about 600 strong and with an ethnic make-up that reflects that of Afghanistan itself. It is also providing advice to the Afghan police. Where it can, the ISAF has helped with much-needed physical reconstruction work—projects that range from repairs to schools to getting the city's dust carts back on the road.
"British forces deployed with the ISAF include troops from the Second Battalion of the Parachute Regiment. It was always planned that they would return to the United Kingdom at the end of March to prepare for their deployment to Northern Ireland later this year. They are now in the process of handing over their responsibilities to the First Battalion of the Royal Anglian Regiment.
"Germany has agreed to provide a new headquarters for the Kabul Multinational Brigade, the ISA F.'s subordinate headquarters, which has, 1140 until now, been provided by the Headquarters of 16 Air Assault Brigade. A Bundeswehr brigadier will formally assume command tomorrow. This will enable us to withdraw a number of British troops from theatre and is a real demonstration of genuine international co-operation. So too is the Czech Republic's offer of a field hospital for the ISAF. Following my discussions with my Czech counterpart earlier this month, the Czechs signed the ISAF Memorandum of Understanding last Thursday. Their contribution is very welcome indeed.
"The House will also be interested in the hand-over of the United Kingdom's responsibilities as lead nation for the ISAF. Our talks with Turkey, which has expressed an interest in taking this on, continue. It would not be appropriate to say too much before those talks are concluded, but certainly the atmosphere in the high level discussions between the UK, the US and the Turks in Ankara last week was very positive.
"We are still working, therefore, to transfer the leadership of the ISAF. We are working hard to tie down the details, with the reassurance that Prime Minister Ecevit of Turkey has told my right honourable friend the Prime Minister that he strongly supports his country taking on the role.
"But for all the progress that we have made in Afghanistan, the threat of attack from A1'Qaeda and Taliban-related groupings and individuals across the country remains high.
"The recent operation, Anaconda, in the Paktia province, lead by the United States, tack led one group of A1'Qaeda terrorists and Taliban fighters. They showed that these people are still in Afghanistan in large numbers and that they are heavily armed. Left alone, these groups would threaten all that the Afghan people and their supporters in the international community have achieved so far and would strive to retain Afghanistan as a base for training and organising terrorism. They do not recognise the Afghan Interim Authority and will work to destabilise the situation across Afghanistan. A1'Qaeda and its supporters continue to pose a direct threat to states outside Afghanistan, including to the United Kingdom.
"I know that the House will join me in offering its sympathies to the families of the Afghan and American soldiers who died during Operation Anaconda and in paying tribute to all the coalition forces who were involved, including the crews of the RAF Tristar tankers and Sentry AWACS aircraft which supported coalition air strikes during the operation.
"The United States has now formally requested that the UK provides forces to join in future military operations against other remnants of A1'Qaeda and the Taliban elsewhere in Afghanistan. I have therefore authorised the deployment to Afghanistan of a full UK infantry battlegroup, built around 1141 45 Commando, Royal Marines. This group will join a US-led brigade—forming a potent force ready to undertake such operations.
"We have held 45 Commando ready for offensive operations in Afghanistan for precisely this purpose. The lead elements of 45 Commando—its Headquarters Company and "Whisky" and "Zulu" Companies—are already in theatre, embarked aboard HMS "Ocean".
"Arrangements are now in hand to deploy these elements to Afghanistan, where they will be joined by the remaining companies of 45 Commando—held at high readiness in Arbroath—and the Combat Support and Services Support elements integral to the Commando Group. These include: 7 Battery of 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery, equipped with 105 millimetre light guns, from Plymouth; 59 Independent Commando Squadron, Royal Engineers; and elements of the Commando Logistics Regiment.
"There is already a versatile range of helicopters aboard HMS "Ocean" to support 45 Commando Group. To increase the Commando Group's operational capabilities still further, we are also deploying a further three Chinook helicopters of 27 Squadron, RAF.
"This is a powerful force, in total up to 1,700 strong. We will ensure that it is ready to take part in operations as quickly as possible. The force will go initially to Bagram, with the first members of 45 Commando Group on the ground within days, and ready to commence offensive operations by mid-April.
"The deployment of 45 Commando Group is not a decision that has been taken lightly. It is our largest military deployment for combat operations since the Gulf conflict. It is important that the House is under no illusion about what this might mean. These troops are being deployed to Afghanistan to take part in warfighting operations. We will be asking them to risk their lives. Their missions will be conducted in unforgiving and hostile terrain against a dangerous enemy. They may suffer casualties.
"No government ever take such decisions without reaching the absolute conviction that it is something that must be done. The appalling events of 11th September demonstrated very clearly that A1'Qaeda and Taliban elements have the ability and the desire to launch attacks right into the heart of nations like ours.
"Both the deployment of the Commando Group and our deployment to Kabul as part of the ISAF contribute to our overall objectives of ending the threat posed by international terrorism and restoring Afghanistan. Both are entirely consistent with the campaign objectives that we set out last October. But the troops with the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan have their own difficult and demanding job to do; 45 Commando Group will have theirs.
1142 "By deploying 45 Commando Group we shall make a new and important contribution to defeating the remnants of A1'Qaeda and the Taliban. And by our continued commitment to the ISAF we are helping Afghanistan regain her place as a stable and prosperous nation. I have no doubt that our Armed Forces will succeed in both tasks".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

§ Lord Vivian
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for repeating this detailed Statement. At the start may I congratulate all our Armed Forces in Afghanistan on the outstanding job they are doing and wish 45 Commando Group every success in their new deployment? They have all displayed their customary professionalism and their usual efficiency.
On these Benches, we have fully supported the decision of the United States of America and Her Majesty's Government to share the Afghanistan burden in destroying Al'Qaeda, but we have been concerned about our contribution to ISAF. The Chief of the Defence Staff, in his speech to the Royal United Services Institute for Defence Studies, RUSI, last November warned of getting our hands trapped in the mangle and that we would have to face the fact that our ability to run concurrent operations will be affected. Something will have to give, he said.
For ISAF, mission creep is exactly what is happening—the period for our deployment has been extended from three months to six months. Is the Minister able to say when we shall be able to withdraw from ISAF? I have noted that the Germans will provide a new headquarters for the Kabul Multinational Brigade, but does that mean that all of 16 Air Assault Brigade, which is currently doing the job, will be withdrawn? However, can the noble Lord also say whether a battalion has been warned to take over from the Royal Anglians when they are due to be withdrawn or replaced in Afghanistan?
With the additional deployment of some 1,700 personnel of 45 Commando and around 1,800 in ISAF, the British force now numbers somewhere in the region of 3,500. This is a large commitment to provide and sustain. It is not helped by the fact that we are still deployed in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo and Sierra Leone. It is an added commitment for our logistical troops and to sustain this new force will be a heavy burden on our already over-committed logistical organisations.
The mission for the British troops in ISAF and 45 Commando must be carefully defined. Our goals and how we are to achieve them should be set out in a statement. For instance, will the United Kingdom troops in ISAF operate outside Kabul?
Let me ask the Minister some additional questions. How long will British troops be involved in ISAF? Can he clearly define the mission of 45 Commando and ISAF? Under whose command will 45 Commando be placed once it has deployed? What are our goals for ISAF and 45 Commando and how will they be achieved? For what guarantees are the Turks waiting 1143 before they will agree to take over command of ISAF? If they are guarantees of USA extraction, should this be necessary? Can we be assured that the other countries contributing to ISAF will remain? If financial support is required for Turkey, why are such funds not provided by the UN? Why have we been unable to give Turkey the assurances it seems to require? Finally, what pressure is being exercised to ensure that more Afghans join their new army? Six hundred is not very many and, presumably, it will be difficult for ISAF to withdraw until the new army has sufficient numbers and is properly trained.

§ Lord Redesdale
My Lords, we on these Benches value the work that ISAF is undertaking and we take pride in the fact that Britain has taken a lead role in commanding ISAF. Obviously the search to find successor to take over that lead role is under negotiation and we welcome the talks that are taking place in Turkey, especially as Turkey is suffering from such a turbulent economy at the moment.
I have only one question in regard to ISAF. Is the UN mandate, which is due to expire in June, currently being renegotiated? If so, how far have those talks developed?
The Minister said that this will be our largest deployment since the Gulf conflict. Our thoughts are very much with the men of 45 Commando and their families because, for such a large deployment to take place, the strength of the current resistance must have been severely under-estimated in the reports in the press. Obviously the Minister will not be able to give the House detailed information about deployment and strengths, but perhaps he can tell us the strength of the remaining resistance in the mountains of Afghanistan.
As the noble Lord, Lord Vivian, pointed out, we are talking about 3,500 troops in Afghanistan. Will this lead to a degree of overstretch outside the commitments that we are already undertaking?
Britain has been asked to take part in this operation. Can the Minister give an indication of whether the Americans have requested the support of any other nation? He said that this was to be a US-led operation; can he say whether 45 Commando will come directly under the command structure of CENCOM? If so, to what extent will British command be subsumed by the American command structure?
This very large commitment raises the question of cost. Obviously the cost of ISAF has depleted reserves set aside for such issues—we will return to this subject at a later date—but can the Minister give an indication of the Treasury's position in regard to funding this extra commitment if it falls outside the contingency reserve?
We support the Government's commitment in Afghanistan and the roles being undertaken by the British Array—not only in the forthcoming combat situation but in the rebuilding of Afghanistan in areas such as the training of police forces and making Kabul safe for the civilian aid workers. However, with such a destabilising influence in Afghanistan showing further 1144 resistance, is it feasible at this point to consider any future action against Iraq in the short term? If the figure being bandied around in the press—which obviously has little foundation—of 25,000 men being necessary, where would these men come from?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Vivian and Lord Redesdale. I shall do my best to answer their questions. But, first, I thank them for their congratulations and good wishes for the British Armed Forces. They will be very well received. Secondly, I thank them for their support for the decision taken by the Government. The support of all parties in this House and the other place in regard to this conflict has been most impressive. I am grateful to noble Lords for repeating that support in such fulsome terms today.
A number of questions were raised by both noble Lords and I shall do my best to answer them. So far as concerns ISAF, at present 20th June is the end of its six-months' existence. It is true that there may be an extension of that time if the United Nations decides that that is what it wants to do—it would be foolish to pretend that that might not happen— but, as I speak today, no decision has been taken to extend ISAF's six months beyond 20th June.
The noble Lord, Lord Vivian, used the cliché "mission creep" unfairly. As matters stand today, we are to be the lead nation until 30th April. We hope very much that Turkey will succeed us on that date. If it does not, we shall not run away from our responsibilities, but it is our desire that Turkey should succeed us then.
As to what is holding up Turkey's agreement to being the next lead nation, I would rather not go into any details today. But negotiations are at an advanced stage and I repeat that we very much hope that Turkey will take on that important role.
As to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Vivian, about whether a successor battalion to the Royal Anglians has been named, the answer is no. The Royal Anglians themselves are not yet fully in Kabul.
Let me now deal with a number of questions which were common to both noble Lords. First, the issue of overstretch. As regards overstretch, we know that there are problems which have been admitted before in both Houses. But we are comfortable that this particular deployment can be managed alongside our existing commitments. Out of the 1,700 or so personnel involved, some 400 are already in theatre. It is important to remember that when numbers are being bandied about. The remainder have been held at high readiness in the United Kingdom against just such a contingency as this. We believe that this is a realistic and sustainable deployment.
As regards the question asked by both noble Lords as to who will be in command, obviously clear command and control arrangements are essential to the success of any force. As part of our deployment, Brigadier Lane, the commander of 3 Commando 1145 Brigade, and his headquarters will also deploy to Bagram. The brigadier and his staff will join the American headquarters from Central Command who are already there. The commando group itself will join with its American counterparts now in Afghanistan and it will benefit from the support of coalition forces now at Bagram.
On the question of costs, our initial estimate is that the additional cost of this deployment will be in the region of about £65 million. I know that noble Lords will not hold me to that figure in time to come, but that is the best estimate that we can give in trying to be as frank as we can with the House.
I was asked whether any other countries were part of the deployment. No doubt the Americans are negotiating with other countries as we speak. It would be wrong of me to take in advance any decisions which might be made on that matter. I thank both noble Lords for their support.

§ Lord Hurd of Westwell
My Lords, as the noble Lord said, this is a serious commitment which has been announced to Parliament today. Does it arise from a revised assessment by the Americans and ourselves following Operation Anaconda or was it always envisaged that after the earlier and brilliant successes in kicking the Taliban out of positions of power there would be, in a way rather reminiscent of Afghan history, a long and difficult follow through such as the noble Lord is now describing?
Perhaps I may raise another issue where we have a national and a European interest which the Americans do not seem entirely to have. If it is true that 90 per cent of the heroin which reaches Europe comes from Afghanistan, what steps are our forces or agencies taking to check that flow? Would it not be a bitter paradox if, as a result of all this energy and new commitments, the flow of heroin which can poison so many of our children were increased?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, with his great experience in this field, the noble Lord is absolutely right. The Statement I have repeated this afternoon is indeed a serious one. I am not in a position to say whether such an event as I have announced was forecast months ago. As the noble Lord will know, these analyses change with time. As he rightly said, there were great successes which were perhaps achieved more quickly than some anticipated last autumn. It may be that the Anaconda campaign has affected both the United States and its allies in realising that the A1'Qaeda and Taliban would not just disappear. The United States has always said that it was going to be a long haul as regards the Afghanistan part of the warfare against terrorism. I do not believe that it is true that the coalition has been caught by surprise. But what is absolutely vital is that the battle against A1'Qaeda and terrorism is finally won in Afghanistan because if it is not, then why have we bothered to risk the lives of our troops and those of the coalition?
I am grateful to the noble Lord for having given me advance warning about his last question concerning drugs. That is a very important issue. It has not been 1146 the task of British forces to destroy opium crops. We do not specifically target heroin stockpiles. Some may have been destroyed during coalition military attacks on terrorist targets. It is impossible to say how many. But the Afghan Interim Authority is planning to destroy this month the Spring opium crop. ISAF is not strictly responsible for the areas of Afghanistan where these crops are largely grown. The interim authority has put on record its determination to stamp out opium production and the signs are encouraging. That is the latest information. The prediction is that this year's crop will be about one-third of what it was under the Taliban, which is one-third too much. But it is an improvement. We are working hard with the Afghan interim administration and the rest of the international community, with the funding that was promised at the Tokyo conference, as the noble Lord will recall. Some of that money will be used for crop substitution and other schemes to help wean Afghan farmers from their opium production, which was basically the result of Afghanistan being a failed state. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his questions.

§ Lord Swinfen
My Lords, can the noble Lord say when the Czech field hospital is likely to be deployed? Will that mean that our own field hospital, currently there in support of ISAF, will return home or will it be used in support of 45 Commando?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord when the Czech hospital will be deployed and neither can I answer his second question. I shall write to the noble Lord with the answers when they are available.

§ Lord Rogan
My Lords, I shall be brief. I welcome this afternoon's Statement and offer my support and that of my noble friends of the Ulster Unionist Party, for those additional troops who will now be deployed in Afghanistan. Having spent some time with Brigadier Lane and 45 Commando, Royal Marines, in the Omani desert towards the end of last year, I know that they are well equipped, that they have high morale and that they can deal with any challenge that they may face. I, and I am sure all the Members of this House, wish them well.

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his party's support for this undertaking.

§ Lord King of Bridgwater
My Lords, the Minister has made a very serious Statement committing our forces to a war-fighting role. There was reference by the noble Lord, Lord Vivian, to the speech of the Chief of Defence staff as to whether we were going to be caught in the mangle. It certainly does not look like a short engagement, but a long haul. The issue of overstretch is not just whether 45 Commando can go there now, but who may replace them and who is going to undertake this continuing assignment in the future.
I do not think that the noble Lord responded to one question from the noble Lord, Lord Vivian; namely, what was the total commitment now of British troops to theatre? I am referring not just to the Royal 1147 Anglians or 45 Commando, but the total commitment we have now of forces to this theatre of operations, which will have to be sustained by further planning about which there appears to be no commitment at present.
The dates which the noble Lord has given to the House sound rather extraordinary. As I understand it, he is hoping that the Turks will take over ISAF by 15th April—

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, 30th April.

§ Lord King of Bridgwater
And then that ISAF itself is due to wind up because its commitment runs to 20th June, as I understand it. I have some experience of Turkey. While I am delighted that Prime Minister Ecevit is supportive of the Prime Minister, everyone knows the power of the armed forces in Turkey and that they are unlikely to take on anything unless they are persuaded that they are going forward on a proper basis. It does look as though the commitment may stay with us and that with those we are taking on now, for what looks like a much more difficult undertaking than it might appear in the initial stages, they present a significant military commitment. We clearly have to deal with the terrorists, but we should not underrate the scale of the commitment that we are taking on.

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, it is difficult to give a precise answer to the noble Lord's first and important question about how many of our Armed Forces are involved. If one includes the large number at Tampa Central Command, those working on this issue in London, those on our ships in the Arabian Sea, the troops who are already in Afghanistan and the troops in Britain who are ready to go, the figure of about 9,000 would not be wildly wrong. That is a frank answer to the noble Lord at present.
I take the point made by the noble Lord about the 30th April and 20th June dates. We hope that the Turks will soon make a decision and will take over shortly after, if not on, 30th April.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, will the Minister give the House an indication of when these grave matters will be discussed by Parliament? Until recent months, it has long been the tradition for affairs of national moment to be laid before Parliament and for Parliament to give its views. Successful military and political leaders in the past have always insisted that Parliament must reign supreme and that parliamentary consent on behalf of the nation is an indispensable condition to the successful prosecution of any course that the country finally decides to take.

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend, with his vast experience. However, I must gently point out that we are making this announcement in Parliament at the first available opportunity. The country first knows of it as a result of my right honourable friend's Statement in the 1148 House of Commons and my repetition of it here. I think the House will agree that that is the appropriate way to announce a decision of this kind.
My right honourable friend was asked in the Commons exchanges a short time ago about the matter of debate. His reply—the one that Ministers make on all these occasions—was that it would have to take place through the usual channels. However, I find it difficult to believe that these serious matters will not be debated very soon.

§ Lord Inge
My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for that statement and endorse what the noble Lord, Lord King, said about the importance of this commitment.
Touching on the remark that has just been made, I should like to add how important it is for the Armed Forces to feel that the nation is behind them when they are deployed. That is an enormously important point, which is sometimes underestimated by those who send them on these kinds of difficult missions.
I should also like to ask the Minister whether it is right that 45 Commando will be commanded by the Americans rather than by ISAF. For what length of tour of duty does he expect 45 Commando to be deployed in Afghanistan? Was it considered—it would be the usual practice—that a force deployed on a dangerous operation such as this would take with it its own air support? I assume that we shall be relying on the Americans for that close air support. However, will the Minister tell us whether consideration was given to sending our own close air support and, if not, the reason for not doing so?

§ Lord Bach
I am grateful to the noble and gallant Lord for his contribution. As far as command is concerned, I must draw the distinction sharply between ISAF and 45 Commando. 45 Commando has nothing to do with ISAF. We are now talking about Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Veritas, which are part of the coalition forces in the continuing struggle against A1'Qaeda and the Taliban. They will be under the same command as other British Armed Forces have been in the four or five months of this conflict thus far.
With regard to the timescale, we hope that this tour of duty will last for three months. I make no promises to the House about that. That is the intention as I speak today.
I have no separate knowledge of air support. I suspect that the RAF has played an important role in air support in its most general terms during the course of Operation Enduring Freedom and will no doubt continue to do so. Air support for 45 Commando and the work that they do with their American colleagues, and any other country that takes part, will no doubt be under American escort.

§ Lord Tebbit
My Lord, first, was the implication of the Minister's last answer that 45 Commando will in fact be under American control but that he could not quite bring himself to use the words?
1149 Secondly, does he agree that the implication of his Statement is that we have now entered into an open-ended commitment in Afghanistan? Will he say whether the Treasury has entered into an open-ended commitment with the Department of Defense?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, let me be explicit. I hope I was fairly explicit previously. Under Operation Enduring Freedom, the command of the coalition forces has been by the Americans from Central Command at Tampa. That continues. It will apply to 45 Commando, as it has to other British Armed Forces that have previously been there. This is not an open-ended commitment, but we are determined that A1'Qaeda and the Taliban should be destroyed in Afghanistan before Operation Enduring Freedom ends. Otherwise, I repeat, what would have been the point of entering into this difficult task in any event?
With regard to questions about Her Majesty's Treasury, the noble Lord will have more experience than I of those.

§ Lord Gilbert
My Lords, my noble friend has quite understandably said that he cannot give the House any commitment as to how long our troops may find themselves in Afghanistan. However, will he tell us whether Her Majesty's Government have made a decision about the size of our contingent? Will it permanently be capped at the number to which he has referred at the Dispatch Box today, and, if so, have Her Majesty's Government told our allies that?
Secondly, although I understand the Minister's reluctance to identify other countries that have been invited to make contributions to this war-fighting force in Afghanistan, will he at least tell us how many other countries, without identifying them, have been invited to participate?
In conclusion, perhaps I may comment on the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hurd. However worthy his objectives, I can think of nothing more disastrous than having British troops sent on a war-fighting expedition being asked to take part in policing operations that are the responsibility of the civil authorities in Afghanistan.

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I have no doubt that we have discussed the matter of numbers with our allies, as we discuss everything with them. The number in our ISAF force is presently down on the original number. It makes up part of the total number that I gave in my answer to the noble Lord, Lord King. He asked me for a figure in the round and my figure represented ISAF as well as Operation Enduring Freedom. That is the position so far as concerns numbers.
I regret that I am not in a position to answer the question about who else the Americans may ask to join in.

§ Lord Gilbert
My Lords, have the Government capped the number of British troops who are going in a war-fighting ro?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I do not believe that the British Government have, but the decision to send in 45 Commando, with the logistics and other forces that it needs to make it operational, comes to between 1,500 and 1,700. If that is a cap, then they have.

§ Baroness Park of Monmouth
My Lords, I should like to ask the Minister three questions. First, may we take it that we can now forget any British commitment to the new EU army's plans for Macedonia? Secondly, is there any truth in the press statements that a major training exercise in Canada had to be cancelled? Thirdly, how is that in any way consonant with keeping our troops properly prepared and able to rotate?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, the noble Baroness is cleverly trying to lead me down the road to Macedonia, but I shall not be tempted on that. I have enjoyed talking about Afghanistan this afternoon, but I am not going to answer questions about Macedonia. I do not know the answer to the noble Baroness's question, but, with the greatest respect, I do not think that it is relevant to today's Statement. The issue of Canada is relevant. I do not have the answer, but I shall write to the noble Baroness as quickly as I can on that.

§ Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde
My Lords, I, too, welcome the Statement and endorse the comments of those who have pledged full support for our Armed Forces in Afghanistan. I should declare an interest as chairman of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. I have listened to the questions and answers about operational issues. One of the best manifestations of support for our troops is to ensure that their welfare is taken care of. The terrain and climate in Afghanistan are very difficult. Like other Members of this House, I have read the reports about the field accommodation and the quality of the reconstituted food that our troops are receiving. I know that some noble Lords may not regard that as a priority, but I do, having met service personnel. Will the Minister give me an assurance on this important issue, particularly as it appears that, while we may be hoping for a three-month operational deployment, the task may well take longer?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, who plays an important role. Of course welfare and accommodation are crucial, even more so in hostile terrain such as Afghanistan. I can give her the assurance that she is seeking.

§ Lord Mayhew of Twysden
My Lords, is it not essential that the operation is funded by the MoD, with full indemnity from Her Majesty's Treasury? I have not given the Minister notice of this question, but perhaps he can answer it anyway. Is it not the case that counter-productive penny-pinching in the recent Gulf exercise, in which Challenger tanks were sent to the desert without desert air filters, has been found to have 1151 resulted in significant damage to their engines, for which spares are being delayed, with consequential harm to our ability to deploy those vital units?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, the Treasury has not been lacking in the war against Afghanistan. The noble and learned Lord will know that there was a debate in the other place on defence funding last week. Extra money has been paid out of the consolidated fund to cover the money that was expended by the Ministry of Defence in relation to Afghanistan. The figures are available. I do not believe that there has been any penny-pinching on Afghanistan. I speak on behalf of the Government, not just on behalf of the Ministry of Defence.

§ Lord Mayhew of Twysden
My Lords, what about the future?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is pressing me on the future. My view is that the Government will make sure that the important decisions that I have restated today will be properly funded.