"Open Skies" Agreements (Hansard, 5 March 2002)

Lord Berkeley
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Following the decision by the European Court of Justice that "open skies" agreements negotiated between individual member states and the United States are illegal, whether they will support moves for the European Commission to negotiate all such future agreements on a Europe-wide basis.

§ The Minister of State, Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions (Lord Falconer of Thoroton)
My Lords, a final ruling from the European Court of Justice is probably some months away. According to the opinion of the Advocate-General, which comprises his advice to the court, it remains open to member states to negotiate and conclude open skies agreements with the United States subject to meeting their obligations under Community law. We are currently reflecting on the options best to advance the interests of UK consumers, airlines and the wider economy.

Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for that reply. Does he agree that there is much more likelihood of the whole of Europe acting en bloc and being able to negotiate properly with the United States for a balanced open skies policy, which would include the fifth freedom opportunities within the United States, if Europe acted altogether rather than individually, with the United States playing off one member state against another?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, our purpose in the negotiations with the United States of America is best to advance the interests of UK consumers, airlines and the wider economy. We shall make judgments in relation to how best to negotiate with the United States of America with that as our touchstone.

Lord Bowness
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the interests of consumers and airlines, whether best served by the present arrangements or open skies, need a functioning air traffic control system? Can he 125 tell the House whether the Government have now finally agreed to make funds available to secure NATS' financial position; and if so, how much?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, that is fairly wide of the Question. However, I agree with the principle that obviously a properly functioning air traffic control system is vital; and that is what we have provided.

§ Baroness Thomas of Walliswood
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be better to negotiate the open skies agreements, particularly with the United States, on a wider European basis rather than rely on individual airlines to make arrangements with American airlines, which could cut across all our ideas of what is right in terms of company structure, monopolies, and so forth?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, that is a similar question to the one asked by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. The answer I gave is that our touchstone in deciding how best to negotiate is what will he in the best interests of UK consumers, airlines and the wider economy. There is no single answer to that. We shall make our judgment in relation to that touchstone.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, I speak on behalf of the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA), of which I am president. Does my noble and learned friend agree—I am sure that he does—that the attitude of the Government is right? It is no good anticipating the views of the court at this time. All that has happened is that the Advocate-General has given his opinion. That being the case, I do not believe that the Government should act on that.

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that the attitude of the Government is right. What we have at present is simply the opinion of the Advocate-General, which does not lay down the judgment of the court. The right thing for the Government to do is to ensure that they look all the time to see what is in the best interests of UK consumers, airlines and the wider economy.

§ Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, what is the outcome of the Government's negotiations in liberalising the UK and US aviation markets? I understand that the Minister's right honourable friend Mr Spellar flew in Concorde to Washington in November last year to commence those negotiations. What is the outcome of the negotiations, or have they failed?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, as the noble Lord must know, those negotiations have been going on for 10 years. They were started by the previous government and no conclusion has yet been reached in relation to them.

§ Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, further to the Minister's reply to his noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis, can he give many examples where the court has 126 not agreed with the Advocate-General? Secondly, can the noble Lord give the House any reason for confidence that the European Union will be better at running these open skies agreements than it is at running anything else?

§ Lord Falconer of Thoroton
My Lords, yes, I can give examples of where the court has not followed the Advocate-General. But not now. So far as concerns the best way of conducting these negotiations, I return to the point that we must make judgments about how they are conducted, having regard to the interests of the aviation industry, the UK consumer and the wider economy.