Racism (Hansard, 26 June 2002)

§ Lord Lyell
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they agree with the views of the Director of Public Prosecutions that British society is institutionally racist and that all, or almost all, Britons are racist.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Filkin)
My Lords, the Director of Public Prosecutions expressed his personal views on the radio programme. The Government would not agree with the suggestion that everyone in Britain is racist. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will set out his vision of a modern approach to tackling racism in a speech that he will give this evening to the Social Market Foundation.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am most grateful for that fulfilling Answer from the noble Lord, and delighted to hear that the comments were only the personal thoughts of a very eminent gentleman, Sir David Calvert-Smith. However, does the Minister agree that many people, including me, were concerned when Sir David went on to say that various—I hope I get this right—"stereotypical assumptions" are made when dealing with subjects such as asylum and sport? I hope that all members of the Government have been quite politically correct in the past few weeks when watching 1356 events on television, including Wimbledon. Have they been? Was it only the personal view of the Director of Public Prosecutions?

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, I did seek to say that. I wish that I could connect more positively with the point on Wimbledon, but unfortunately time has not allowed me to watch much of it. The real issue, I think, is perhaps the need to move away from paying overmuch attention to what was or was not said in a journalistic interview, to the serious issue of how we make our public services appropriate for the future by ensuring that they deliver proper and fair services to all the people of Britain. On previous occasions this House has celebrated the fact that we are a multicultural society. It is crucial, therefore, that public services are appropriate to all residents of Britain. That is why this House, with great wisdom, passed the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000.

§ Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, staying with sport for a second, my noble friend will be aware that some of the worst examples of racism and xenophobia in recent years have been displayed by England football supporters. Will he therefore pay tribute to the behaviour of the England fans in Japan, who have contributed by their exemplary behaviour to the success of the tournament despite their disappointment that it is Brazil rather than England which is in the final on Sunday?

§ Lord Filkin
Yes, my Lords. I think that we all celebrated the success of the England team as far as it went and were delighted that English fans were a credit to the nation rather than the reverse, as might have happened if past events had been repeated. I also think that we as a country have seen considerable progress in Association Football in eradicating some of the quite appalling racist abuse that used to occur on our terraces. However, we are not completely free of that, and I think that there are still one or two clubs that need to look to their laurels in that respect. Nevertheless, we have moved considerably forward in ensuring that that type of behaviour is no longer seen as acceptable.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, will the Minister say what progress the Government have made in producing race equality schemes, as all public authorities are obliged to do, and what advice has been given by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister to local authorities on the race equality schemes that they should also produce?

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, all designated public bodies were obliged in April to introduce their implementation plans under the Race Relations (Amendment) Act. While I have not carried out a full check on compliance, I shall do so as that fits with one of my current responsibilities. Similarly, I know that advice has been given to local authorities, I think by both the LGA and the CRE, to ensure that they approach this responsibility not only with vigour, but much more imaginatively than simply seeking to 1357 comply on paper with the Act. I look forward to future discussions with the LGA about the progress being made across local government, and to ensuring that best practice is mirrored and picked up rapidly by those who can benefit from learning it.

§ Lord Ouseley
My Lords—

Lord Renton
My Lords—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, may we hear from the Cross Benches?

§ Lord Ouseley
My Lords, is the Minister aware of two public attitude surveys which have been conducted in the past two years by MORI on behalf of, first, Reader's Digest, and, secondly, the Commission for Racial Equality, in which the majority of respondents across a broad range of people in the UK indicated that they believed that racial prejudice was on the increase? In other responses they alluded to the fact that there were many more asylum seekers and immigrants in the country than was actually the case. When asked how they formed their views, they said that they had heard that said by politicians and the media.
Will the Minister respond to the issue of how we report race matters through the media? How do the Government seek to counter negative and sensationalised reporting which does as much damage to race relations as racist attitudes? Will he also comment on the responses of government through education in dealing with the needs of all our young people in the next generation to ensure that they are properly educated about cultures, values and people other than themselves so that they have respect for, knowledge of and appreciation of each other? I think that the Minister would agree that that is clearly important in building good race relations and in acknowledging the many people in this country who make a positive contribution to race relations. Education plays a very important part in ensuring that this country maintains its tradition of valuing fairness, equality and equal treatment for all.

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, the specific reference to MORI does not immediately leap to mind. However, one that does leap to mind is the statement from recollection that some 86 per cent of people in Britain believe that you do not need to be white to be a British citizen. That may sound an obvious statement but it is important that that proportion of the population is quite clear that a black person or a person of Asian origin is as much a member of British society as anyone who is white.
Having said that, the evidence that the public have become more tolerant and that public bodies have become better in this regard does not for a second mean that we have reached the stage where we want to be in the future. There is considerable need for further progress as regards a range of public bodies and private organisations to ensure that they look at how policies are formed, that they recognise the diversity of 1358 our society and to ensure that employment practices are fair. I am sorry that I cannot give noble Lords more of an idea of David Blunkett's speech which will be made this evening, but it will set out a clear stance on that matter and will state quite clearly his commitment and the Government's commitment to eradicating racism and to equality.

Lord Renton
My Lords, in view of the welcome replies which the noble Lord gave to my noble friend Lord Lyell, will he confirm that there is a long-established convention that those holding full-time, non-political legal appointments should avoid making controversial public statements?

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, it is not my area of expertise but I can well believe that the noble Lord is correct. I am sure that anyone who has experienced the joy of finding that they are front page news reflects afterwards whether they quite captured in their interview exactly what with hindsight they would have wished to express.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that Sir David Calvert-Smith was being interviewed in his capacity as the Director of Public Prosecutions and not in a private capacity? Is it not a gross slander, libel and insult to the people of this country to be described by a very senior public official as all being racist? Is it not a fact that the people of this country, particularly those working people living in terraced houses and semi-detached houses in our cities up and down the country, have done a marvellous job in assimilating people of different cultures from many parts of the world? Is it not a fact that what we should be doing is praising them, not condemning them?

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, although I did not hear the programme I read a transcript of it. It is quite clear that Sir David was speaking in his role as Director of Public Prosecutions and head of the CPS. Nevertheless, he expressed his personal views. They were certainly not the views of the Government. The Government's view, and my own, is that it is quite clearly untrue that everyone in Britain is racist. That is a nonsense. On the other hand, neither is it true to say that no one in Britain is racist.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, I have the privilege of coming from an area in the London Borough of Brent where no group enjoys a racial majority. Will the Minister take note that that situation does wonders for racial tolerance?

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, having enjoyed working in the London Borough of Brent for some years when it was becoming a rich, multicultural area, I agree with the noble Earl.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that most racism is entirely unconscious on the part of the person practising it? Is he aware that in some London schools no black adult can visit if he or she is 1359 not wearing a sharp business suit or the female equivalent without it being assumed that they are either the cleaner or constitute a one-parent family? That is an element of racism which does exist and which we should take account of.

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that much racism, but not all, can be unconscious. Some is conscious and deliberate. I was not aware of the point that he made about the mode of dress in certain London schools.

§ Baroness Howells of St Davids
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Director of Public Prosecutions actually made the statement based on the empirical data that he found in the job that he is doing? There is a lot to be said for studying his report.

§ Lord Filkin
My Lords, that is why it is important to make the distinction between the particular words that caught the media's attention—the statement that everyone in Britain is racist—and the fact that Sir David was responding to two reports on practices in the Crown Prosecution Service which quite clearly demonstrated that management had failed to manage staff in ways that did not allow segregation to take place. There was strong concern that areas of prosecution decision-making could not categorically be seen not to have been tinged by racial assumptions. There were issues which had to be attended to. That is why Sir David gave a commitment on the programme to introduce changes which are needed in the Crown Prosecution Service.