§ Baroness Gould of Potternewtonasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are satisfied with their progress towards achieving equal pay and equality of opportunity in the Civil Service.
§ The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Macdonald of Tradeston)My Lords, the Government have committed all departments and agencies to undertake an equal pay review and to prepare any necessary action plans by April 2003. Departments and agencies are at various stages of reviewing their pay systems. We are making good progress with equality of opportunity in the Civil Service, with increasing numbers of women, ethnic minority and disabled staff at all levels, including the senior Civil Service.
§ Baroness Gould of PotternewtonMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that detailed Answer. I am given to understand that in response to a survey among staff on Civil Service diversity, which was conducted sometime last year, more than half of those who replied did not believe that promotion policies operated fairly or were based on individual merit, and were particularly to the detriment of women and ethnic minorities. Given that finding, can the Minister indicate whether there are any plans to undertake a skills and qualifications audit of Civil Service staff in order to ensure that promotion prospects are felt to be fair and based purely on the merits of candidates?
§ Lord Macdonald of TradestonMy Lords, the Civil Service takes very seriously the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness and others. We are not clear about what is to be gained by having information on the skills and qualifications of around half a million staff. We 1192 believe that it is most important that departments and agencies operate a system of open advertising of vacancies, where staff are free to put themselves forward and to demonstrate how their skills and experience are relevant to the post.
§ Baroness LockwoodMy Lords, in view of the Minister's reply to the Question of my noble friend Lady Gould, can he explain why women whose jobs have been rated as of equal value to those of men—women in administrative work and men in technical work whose jobs have been rated as of equal value—are paid less? Can he explain why?
§ Lord Macdonald of TradestonMy Lords, taking that point across the economy as a whole, the gender pay gap was assessed and explained by the Equal Opportunities Commission task force as arising through, yes, unfair—and, indeed, sometimes unlawful—discrimination in pay systems: the impact of the different patterns of male and female careers; and occupational segregation of the workforce. The task force estimated that up to half of the gap was caused by discrimination in pay systems. But government departments are leading by example in carrying out pay reviews, which are to be completed by April 2003. Research by the trade union Amicus suggests that only 1 per cent of private sector employers have similar plans.
§ Baroness Thomas of WalliswoodMy Lords, does the Minister agree that inability to make progression in a service amounts to a form of unequal pay? Does he recognise that there are complaints from middle rank civil servants who might expect to progress well but who, as women, are encouraged to take time off when they are having a child or to work part time, and then find it very difficult indeed to get back into full-time work within the same job or the same kind of job'? Will any of the units established under the recent reforms announced by Sir Andrew Turnbull turn their attention towards ensuring that the Government's targets for progression of women within the Civil Service are achieved?
§ Lord Macdonald of TradestonMy Lords, in regard to the final part of the noble Baroness's question, there will be a unit, led by Alice Perkins, which will attend to these issues with the same kind of commitment as has been displayed in recent times. The targets for women within the workforce were from a 1998 baseline of around 18 per cent of women in the senior Civil Service. By October last year that figure had gone up from 18 per cent to more than 25 per cent. I am pleased to say that we now have four women Permanent Secretaries and that the proportion of women recommended for appointment to the fast stream has increased almost to parity with men.
§ Baroness Howe of IdlicoteMy Lords, does the Minister recall the Government's target in respect of appointments to public bodies, whether paid or unpaid, that, by 2005, 45 to 50 per cent of such 1193 positions should be filled by women? Can the Minister assure the House that these targets are being applied, in particular, to the chairmanship, deputy chairmanship and chief executive positions of all such appointments?
§ Lord Macdonald of TradestonMy Lords, I cannot reply to that point in detail as it is wide of the Question on the Order Paper. I shall inquire into the matter and ensure that my government colleagues are made aware of the concern.
§ Lord SaatchiMy Lords, would not the Minister's assurances to noble Baronesses on all sides of the House carry more weight were it not for the fact that, while other employers pay women an average of 20 per cent less than they do men—which is bad enough—the Government pay their women employees 28 per cent less, which is truly appalling?
§ Lord Macdonald of TradestonMy Lords, the equal opportunities survey that I mentioned gave a figure of 18 per cent. The trade union survey quoted by the noble Lord cited 28 per cent, but the bases of the two surveys were very different. The survey indicating a figure of 28 per cent conflated full-time and part-time employees and was therefore not comparable.
§ Baroness Thomas of WalliswoodMy Lords, it is helpful to hear the Minister tell us that we had four female Permanent Under-Secretaries. But does he recall that Dame Evelyn Sharp was a Permanent Under-Secretary when Richard Crossman was Minister for Housing?
§ Lord Macdonald of TradestonMy Lords, I do indeed recall that. I also recall that Dame Evelyn moved over to television and kept us under a very strict regime.