SA80-A2 Rifle (Hansard, 10 July 2002)

§ Lord Redesdale
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether the performance of the new SA80-A2 rifle used by British Forces in Afghanistan is satisfactory.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach)
My Lords, the SA80-A2 is operating in a very difficult environment in Afghanistan with both dusty conditions and extremes of temperatures. We have had reports from Afghanistan of equipment failure. In any operational environment, such reports must be investigated as a matter of urgency, but we need to establish all the facts before commenting further.

§ Lord Redesdale
My Lords, does the Minister agree that a degree of confidence must be built into the SA80-A2 because the SA80 needed modifications? Those included a new breech block, breech bolt, cartridge extractor, cartridge ejector, recoil springs, extractor spring, firing pin, cocking handle, magazine, gas plug and cylinder, and the light support weapon has been given a new barrel and hammer. I do not believe that many parts of the rifle have stayed the same. Considering those minor modifications in changing from the SA80 to the new A2, can the Minister say whether the soldiers are confident in their weapons? If they are, can he say why the LSW was not used in Afghanistan?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, we believe that servicemen are confident in this weapon. The earlier weapons to which the noble Lord referred by implication came on stream well before our watch.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I believe it is right to point that out. However, investigations are ongoing and it would he foolish to tell the House anything that is not the result of those investigations. We do not believe that the weapon is faulty. When on patrol, it is necessary for the weapon to have dust removed from the main parts and it should also be appropriately 688 oiled. It does not need to be fully stripped. Such cleaning can be carried out in a very short time—seconds rather than minutes.

§ Lord Hardy of Wath
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that four weeks ago today members of the Defence Study Group visited the admirable School of Infantry at Warminster? There, we met the experienced officers and senior NCOs who are very familiar with the weapon. Some had been involved in the extensive trials which were undertaken in a wide variety of environments. We were shown the new weapon and the changes were explained to us. We were able to fire the weapon on the range and it worked. Therefore, does my noble friend consider that this is another example of some sections of the press trying to make mountains out of molehills?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I would never accuse any sections of the press of doing that. However, I am grateful to my noble friend. He told me that he and others had visited Warminster on that occasion. I believe that what he found when trying out the SA80-A2 was what most other people have found when using it. It has gone through the most severe tests and has been successful in all of them.

§ Lord Vivian
My Lords, can the Minister inform the House of the failure rate in rounds fired from the SA80-A2, the M16 and the AK47 rifles? Have any faults been reported by the SAS in their use of the Demarco rifle?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, as to the last part of the noble Lord's question, he knows that we do not comment on equipment that special forces may or may not have. As to the first part of his question relating to failure rates, extensive trials were undertaken before the SA80 was issued. As I replied a moment or two ago, those trials demonstrated that the SA80-A2 was a very reliable weapon system. The testing included trials in Kuwait in very high temperatures with strong winds and blowing sand.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, when I held the position that he now holds with so much greater distinction that I did, I took delivery of the first SA80 for the British Army? In the subsequent target-shooting competition with the then Chief of the General Staff, I was the clear victor. Clearly there cannot be too much wrong with the weapon.

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I was not aware that the noble Lord had had such a great victory. But it was some time ago and I am glad that he remembers it so well.

§ Lord Burnham
My Lords, as I understand it, the refurbishment of the weapon cost £93 million. What would be the cost of starting again from scratch and 689 producing another weapon in which all the forces have confidence or of using any of the other rifles which are available on the market at present?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, as a very small correction, I believe that the figure is £92 million. The cost of replacing the SA80 would be in the region of £500 million. That would be the cost of buying a new system, including spares, additional infrastructure, rifle racks, blank firing adapters, and so on. We have no intention of doing that.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that this matter is part of a bigger problem? Does he recall that as recently as November 2000 the Public Accounts Committee of the other place produced a very critical report on procurement in the Ministry of Defence? It pointed out, among other things, that 60 per cent of weapons examined by the National Audit Office after acceptance into the Armed Forces had not fulfilled the users' requirements. Can he confirm that, since then, we have had problems with armoured vehicles in Oman, with the hunter-killer submarine and with the upgrading of the Tornado aircraft? Do not our Armed Forces deserve something rather better than that?

§ Lord Bach
My Lords, I am aware of the Public Accounts Committee report which the noble Lord mentioned. I am sure that he is aware of one published just a week or so ago which expressed in clear terms the progress being made on defence equipment. I know that the noble Lord would want to be fair and recognise that there are many great successes in defence equipment going back many years under both governments. I believe that sometimes we should talk more about those than about others. So far as concerns the SA80, I ask the noble Lord, along with other noble Lords, to await the outcome of the investigations.