HL Deb 02 July 2002 vol 637 cc125-7

3.1 p.m.

Lord Marlesford

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they recognise the need for the introduction of an identity card incorporating biometric details to assist in the prevention of acts of terrorism and the fight against other crime.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Falconer of Thoroton)

My Lords, in the period after 11th September, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary made it clear that any debate around entitlement cards should not rest solely on issues of national security. The Government do not consider that an identity card incorporating biometric details would have a significant effect in preventing acts of terrorism.

One of the potential uses of a card scheme on which we will be consulting in the near future would be to help reduce the level of identity fraud. That is a growing area of crime and is estimated to cost the economy at least £1.3 billion per annum. It will be for the British people to indicate their support or otherwise for a more comprehensive system of personal identification, including for the task of eliminating illegal working and facilitating more convenient and effective access to services.

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that Answer. Does he recognise that the people of this country expect the Government to fight with vigour and effectiveness at least four battles: against terrorism, against crime, against social security fraud and against the abuse of our immigration rules? Does he also recognise that, so long as it is not possible to identify individuals who might be involved in such activities, the Government are fighting those battles with one hand tied behind their back?

Does the Minister remember that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who knows a thing or two about such matters, has advocated identity cards with full, state-of-the-art biometric details? The Minister talked about the British people, but is he aware that, in a MORI poll conducted in September, 85 per cent of the British people said that they would like a national identity card, and 72 per cent said that such a card would not infringe personal freedom? Will the Minister please take more comprehensive action?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to four fights. We must, of course, engage in those fights. Would identity cards help? There must be full, detailed consultation about every aspect. As my right honourable friend said in another place, we will shortly produce a consultation document that will permit that debate to take place.

The noble Lord also referred to the views of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner on identity cards. Those views will play a part in the debate. All the issues raised require a full debate. The noble Lord is, obviously, a strong supporter of identity cards; others are not. We must have a properly informed debate, before a conclusion can be reached.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, how does the Minister define the phrase "biometric details"? I asked the Library what biometry is and I was told that it is a calculation of the average duration and expectation of life. Can the Minister assure me that no identity card that covers the expectation of life will be used for insurance or other purposes?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I did not understand the phrase to refer to expectation of life until the noble Baroness pointed that out. I understood it to refer to a means of measuring a part of one's body or anatomy that is unique to oneself and could provide a unique identifier. I do not think that life expectancy falls within that description.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord accept that far and away the best method of achieving the prevention mentioned in the Question is having good intelligence? Money should be spent on that, rather than on harassing law-abiding citizens with further regulations.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord was referring to intelligence on unique identifiers. Intelligence is vitally important to the fight against crime, illegal immigration and benefit fraud. The question is whether other things should be available to help in that fight. That is what we must debate.

Baroness Sharpies

My Lords, is the Minister aware that each government department has a different card? Last week, I met a lady who had six different cards—all with different photographs. She had to go through a security system before she got the cards. Would not the most sensible approach be to have one card?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I see the force of that argument, although that does not mean that I am expressing a view on identity cards or entitlement cards. Access to services that the Government provide through one source of identification would be of great convenience to receivers of those services. That is an important argument, and it should be considered in the debate.

The Earl of Erroll

My Lords, does the Minister think that the problem is in detecting and arresting criminals committing violent crimes or burglaries or in identifying them after they have been caught?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I do not know whether that is a question about the criminal justice system or about identity cards. The role of identity cards or entitlement cards with regard to crime—organised crime, terrorist crime or any other sort of crime—must be fully examined. We must consider the issue from the point of view of prevention and of detection. Both factors must be considered in the debate.