Higher Education: Funding (Hansard, 21 January 2002)

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, the Government are considering these issues as part of the spending review, the outcome of which will be made public in the summer. The Higher Education Funding Council for England is consulting the sector on supply and demand for higher education over the coming years.

§ Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer and declare an interest as Pro-chancellor of the University of Birmingham. However, perhaps I may observe that her reply was a little light on substance. Does she not believe that it was somewhat feckless of the Government to set a very ambitious target, such as 50 per cent participation, and then to set off towards it on a wing and a prayer? Does she agree with the calculation made by the universities that the achievement of that target requires the creation of 30,000 additional places in our universities every year from now to 2010 and the allocation of £420 million of additional funds to provide the necessary resources?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I do not consider the decision to be feckless. Noble Lords will be aware of the higher education working group formed in 1999 to advise on expansion, achievement of participation rates and related funding issues. The forecast of the National Skills Task Force is that by 2010 there will be a growth of 1.73 million jobs in occupations that typically recruit graduates. That constitutes over 80 per cent of overall employment growth. It would be feckless not to take into account the needs of our graduates. As I have said, the Government are well aware and mindful of the issues relating to universities in terms of achieving this target and they form part of the spending review.

§ Lord Roberts of Conwy
My Lords, bearing in mind the already high vacancy rate among senior teachers in higher education, is the Minister confident that we have adequate numbers of such teachers available to meet this new target?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I recognise the challenge for universities in relation to the target. The purpose of the target is to set a challenge for Government and universities which they should meet in partnership. I argue that that is also 1326 true for schools. Therefore, it is important to see the target as worth pursuing in the context of where we want to go and what we want to achieve. That must be done in collaboration with the universities, taking on board issues such as the ability to provide the teaching and the research that is needed.

§ Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe
My Lords, I declare an interest as chief executive of Universities UK. I remind the Minister how hard the universities are working in support of the Government's target to widen participation through summer schools, mentoring schemes and so on. Last week's NAO report indicated the lack of resources for such work. Does the Minister agree, at least as an initial measure, that the 5 per cent access premium currently available to universities should be increased to 20 per cent in line with the recommendation of the Education and Skills Select Committee so as to enable universities to maximise their efforts to meet the 50 per cent target?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
Yes, my Lords, I am aware that the universities are working hard. We are delighted with the progress that they are making, as is highlighted in the NAO report. As regards the postcode premium, I understand that it is the reimbursement to institutions for the additional resources that they have invested in recruiting and retaining students from lower socio-economic groups. It is not intended as an incentive payment. I understand that HEFC is currently evaluating the effectiveness of the postcode premium. I argue that it is sensible to await those findings before committing more funds through that route.

§ Baroness Sharp of Guildford
My Lords, is the Minister aware that already nine out of 10 of those in the lowest two social classes who qualify for entry to universities go on to higher education? If the Government persist with the 50 per cent target they are likely to achieve it only by increasing the proportion of middle class students entering higher education, which will increase the gap between the higher social classes and the lower social classes in universities?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, it depends how it is done. As I said earlier, it is important that we recognise the need for graduates if we are to fulfil our expectations in terms of jobs. Therefore, I would expect an increase across all socio-economic groups. However, in this House we have long discussed working with those who do not aspire to a university education so that we can persuade them that it is a route that they can follow to their and our greater benefit.

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House how the Government define "higher education"?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, higher education includes academic learning beyond A-levels. It also includes foundation degrees. We are 1327 looking carefully at the role of the e-learning university, if I may describe it as such, and at different routes by which people can go on to higher education.

§ Lord Dearing
My Lords, does the Minister agree that while the £420 million mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is a tidy sum, it is dwarfed by the £6 billion that universities say will be needed over the forthcoming three years? In view of the experience of the railways and the Tube, it may be as well to take note of that.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I am sure that everyone in government takes note of experience from everywhere, and rightly so. I have heard many figures in relation to the needs of universities. I fully recognise, as does my honourable friend Margaret Hodge, who has responsibility for this area, that we have to develop the correct basis upon which we can work in partnership. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who asked the Question, was seeking that kind of assurance. We must all await the outcome in the Comprehensive Spending Review.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether she accepts that extending the catchment of universities and other institutions of academic higher education by something like a quarter of a million will have an effect on the academic standards of entry? What does she believe will be the effect? Does she also accept that norm referencing of examination results will mean that the average pass rate will remain the same regardless of the quality of the input? What will that say about overall national standards?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I am quite certain that there is no need for any lowering of standards. In relation to A-level results, there is nothing to suggest that standards are being lowered. We have many hard-working young and older people who do extremely well and make their way into our university sector. However, I accept—I believe this is behind the question raised by the noble Lord—that one has to ensure that the experience of young or older people who go to universities is a positive one, and that they can learn because the resources are available. That is the crux of the matter. There must be a partnership between government and universities to ensure that we are able to achieve that.

§ Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, whatever the merits of aiming to secure a particular overall admissions percentage, does the Minister agree that a so-called voucher system, whereby the Government vest their contribution directly to every student who qualifies, could have the advantage of making it possible to top up the voucher's basic value for students from less advantaged backgrounds; further, that it would give the universities more flexibility to recruit both students and academics at realistic market prices?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, I hope that I have understood the noble Baroness correctly. Does she mean a voucher system for those who are going to universities?

§ Baroness Howe of Idlicote
That is correct.

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
My Lords, all these ideas—and there are many—about how best to organise student financing are being considered by the review. It is important that your Lordships have a chance to impact on this important review. That is why I am delighted to be standing here again discussing higher education today. I hope that those directly involved in the review—I am sure that they will—rule "nothing in and nothing out" until they have made their decisions about what will work best. The words of the noble Baroness will be in Hansard. I am sure that they will be fed into the review.

§ Lord Plumb
My Lords—

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has tried to speak at least three or four times.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that not every young person is well suited to a university education? Will she therefore ensure that the funding for these matters is not wholly confined to universities but remains adequately available for vocational training where appropriate?

§ Baroness Ashton of Upholland
Yes, indeed, my Lords. I agree that it is very important that we do not lose sight in our discussions of the need for our young people to be able to pursue the career and the route into employment that suits them best. We ara trying to make sure that those who would benefit from a university education are given the opportunity of one and do not lose out simply because of lack of aspiration, lack of knowledge or lack of opportunity.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords—

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, we must move on now.