The Church of England and the Sex Discrimination Act (Hansard, 10 January 2002)

§ The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
My Lords, we have no plans to review Section 19 of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, relating to organised religions generally.

§ Baroness Perry of Southwark
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does she agree with her right honourable friend the Home Secretary that it is unacceptable that there should be discrimination against women in any part of British society? Is it not therefore unacceptable that women priests in the Church of England are subject to humiliating discrimination in their conditions of employment? Why is it still possible for a parish to decide that they will not even consider a woman for the position of their parish priest? Is it not time for the Government to reconsider that point?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I agree with the Home Secretary's statement that it is unacceptable for women to be discriminated against. However, your Lordships will know that it has been the policy of successive governments, particularly since the Church of England (Worship and Doctrine) Measure 1974, to leave internal church affairs to the Church itself. The position of women priests is a matter for the Church and I am confident that the Church of England is dealing with the issue, mindful of the Government's commitment to promoting equality. We shall continue to keep the legal position under review in the light of developments in EU law.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that if the clergy were treated as employees and covered by the relevant sections of employment legislation, the problem of gender discrimination would not be as the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, has described?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, we have a difficulty, because there is case law that indicates that members of the clergy are not employed in the normal sense of the word, but are following a vocational calling. They do not fall within the normal 689 construction of an employment contract. That is the reality of the situation. Since the establishment of the Church of England during the reign of Henry VIII, the introduction of women priests has been an issue. However, recently that issue has been resolved in part by the Church.

§ Baroness Richardson of Calow
My Lords—

§ The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Bishop!

§ The Lord Bishop of Manchester
After the noble Baroness.

§ Baroness Richardson of Calow
My Lords, I hate to fight it out with my noble friend the right reverend Prelate. In framing her reply, did the Minister take into account any of the experience in the Anglican Communion in other places or experience in other free Protestant Churches in this country, which have had women in leadership positions for a long time without any noticeable disintegration?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I am confident that the right reverend Prelates and others who make up the General Synod are conversant with that view. Your Lordships will know that a debate in the General Synod in November 2001 drew attention to what some would see as an anomaly in the safeguards for parishes in the 1993 Measure. Following that debate, some individuals and organisations within the Church of England have begun to suggest the need for a review of the Measure, or parts of it. Careful consideration is being given to the best way of responding to those suggestions. Whatever is decided will need to take into account the views of those in favour of the priestly ministry of women and those who have conscientious objections to it, as well as the continuing need to preserve the unity of the Church, while also ensuring that women priests are fairly and properly treated. Perhaps reconciliation is something that the Church will have to practise as well as preach.

§ The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, is the Minister aware that less than eight years since the General Synod's legislation permitting women priests came into force, the latest figures show that out of a total of 13,200 parishes in the Church of England, fewer than 1,000 rely on the safeguards for those with conscientious objections? I am glad that the Minister accepts that the Church itself should decide whether and when it would be appropriate to review those provisions, which were closely scrutinised by no less a body than the Ecclesiastical Committee at the time. I am also pleased that the Minister accepts that the Church will he able to safeguard its unity by taking into account the conscientious objections of some to women priests and by encouraging the ministry of those who have been given such encouragement by the 690 widespread acceptance of women priests. Is she aware that we are already talking about the possibility of including women in the episcopate?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I am indeed aware of that. The Government recognise that the Church has already made great strides. There are more than 2,000 ordained women in the Church of England. As the right reverend Prelate says, only 1,000 of the more than 13,000 Church of England parishes have sought to rely on the restriction. I hope that, having listened to these exchanges, they will be further encouraged and that the 1,000 may reconsider their position.

§ Baroness Thomas of Walliswood
My Lords, does the Minister agree that we must have a good deal of confidence in the Church's willingness and enthusiasm for recruiting women priests, but that is not necessarily the most relevant issue? The working conditions of those women could be adversely affected—consciously or unconsciously. Those women might not then have recourse to the appeal available to other women under the equal rights legislation.

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, although I sympathise with what the noble Baroness has said, I repeat that the Church of England has to listen to the debate. It must take account of what will best meet the needs of its congregation and how to keep that congregation. We can be encouraged by the steps that the Church has taken to address the issue, but it is a matter for the Church, not for the Government.