House of Lords and House of Commons Refreshment Departments (Hansard, 16 December 2002)

§ The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, I am always ready to consider any proposal from your Lordships. If your Lordships wished to pursue this, I think that, in the first instance, the House Committee would wish to seek the advice of the Refreshment Committee. Consultation would then be needed with the authorities in another place.

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer. Does he agree that, on grounds of management efficiency alone, there would be a case for merging the Refreshment Department of this House with that of the other place? Does he further agree that it is an even more pressing problem given that the Commons will start to rise much earlier in the evening, and that there are likely to be underused resources in the Refreshment Department in the other place by January? Will he, therefore, give the matter urgency?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, as I said in my original Answer, we are prepared to consider it. So far as efficiencies are concerned, I understand that the last time the issue was raised—which, admittedly, was in 1981–82—it was decided that no economic advantages would accrue to either House. It is too early to say what the effect of the change of sitting patterns will be in your Lordships House. I understand that the same view is taken in another place. Obviously, that must be closely monitored.

§ Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords—

§ Lord Colwyn
My Lords, is the Chairman aware that changes are taking place in the Refreshment Department? Mr Bibbiani, the superintendent, leaves in two or three days' time, and his successor starts work in the new year. Work on new staff facilities, new kitchens and a new restaurant outlet start in July. Is he also aware that, as chairman of the Refreshment Committee, I have regular meetings with my counterpart in the House of Commons, when we 444 discuss matters of mutual interest, which do not at present include amalgamation of the two departments?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, who is chairman of the Refreshment Committee. I am sure that we all wish to join him in paying tribute to Mr Bibbiani, who is shortly to retire. As I am sure your Lordships are aware, Mr Bibbiani was awarded an OBE in recognition of his outstanding 22 years' service as superintendent of the Refreshment Department. I am sure that the House will be pleased to hear what the chairman of the Refreshment Committee said about new facilities and keeping in touch with the other place.

§ Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Refreshment Committee, which takes great interest in the welfare of the staff, who serve us amazingly well in your Lordships House. Does the Chairman agree that it is vital that the morale of staff be a primary consideration in any discussion of future arrangements?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. I am sure that I speak for the whole House in echoing her praise for the staff of the department, who serve us so well, particularly at this time of the year. I know that for many of your Lordships the presence of friendly and familiar faces is an important element of our services. I reassure the staff that they have no reason for concern.

§ Lord Roper
My Lords, does the Chairman of Committees not accept that Barry, in his original plans for the Palace, suggested that there be a common set of kitchens for both Houses? Although that was not put into practice, will he at least examine whether there are opportunities, while maintaining the diversity important to the two Houses, of achieving economies of scale?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, as I said, we will look into the matter. Since the original Barry design of this House, refreshment facilities have sprung up elsewhere, including in outbuildings—in our own case, in Millbank House. I am thinking, in particular, of the Barry Room, the Attlee Room, the Reid Room and the Home Room. The Commons now have an enormous empire across the road in Portcullis House and at 1 Parliament Street.

§ Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, will the Chairman undertake to see whether fairly traded products are used as much as possible in the catering of the Houses of Parliament?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, that strays slightly from the Question on the Order Paper. Bearing in mind the rules of procedure of this House, which I must be the first to obey, it would be wrong of me to answer that question. However, the question will have been heard by members of the Refreshment Committee.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords—

§ Baroness Greengross
My Lords, will the Chairman also consider other areas of life in the House; for example, the Computer Office or even the Library? That might help efficiency and cost-effectiveness.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, that is even wider of the Question than the previous one was.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords—

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords—

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, I gave way before.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, so did I.

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, it is obviously Gardner's Question Time.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I agree with most Members of the House that we have seen great improvements and are happy with things as they are, particularly given the new improvements to be made. Is there any discussion about the Pugin Room returning to us? In the 21 years in which I have been here, it has supposedly been coming back. When we got red carpet, we were told that it would return, but it did not.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I understand that that issue has been on the agenda for many years. Nothing has happened about it so far.

§ Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, has the Chairman any information on the costs of running our department as against that in the House of Commons, and on losses or profitability in each case?

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I do not want to get into a comparison between our arrangements and those of another place. The net costs to the House of Lords last year were £977,000 out of a turnover of £2.7 million. The costs in the Commons are a matter for them.