HL Deb 11 December 2002 vol 642 cc225-6

3 p.m.

Lord Janner of Braunstone

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will take urgent measures to increase safety for passengers in buses and coaches.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, we debated the fitting and wearing of seat belts in buses and coaches two weeks ago, when I told the House about the existing measures we have taken and those in an EU directive under discussion aiming to improve safety for those travelling on buses and coaches. While implementing a European directive on bus and coach design, we are taking the opportunity to align and simplify all our national regulations and approval schemes for buses and coaches. Of course, all vehicle safety regulations are under constant review.

Despite last week's unfortunate accidents—I convey our sympathy to the victims— buses and coaches remain a very safe form of transport, with an average of only 0.4 fatalities per billion— not million, but billion- passenger kilometres compared with a figure of 3.1 for cars and more than 100 for motorbikes.

Lord Janner of Braunstone

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. However, does he recognise that many coaches on the road today should not be on the road? Is not the best advice that coaches constructed before 1993 could be dangerous, and that, even when they are fitted with seat belts, it is often safer for passengers not to wear them? Will he, please, urgently take steps to ensure that drivers of coaches constructed and registered after April 1993 do not drive off until they themselves and their passengers are belted in'' Although there are not so many deaths or injuries involving coaches on our roads, many of the deaths that do occur could be avoided if those rules were followed.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I am very reluctant to take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Janner, that passengers on vehicles fitted with seat belts should not use them. I do not know that there is any evidence for that, and, if I may say so, I think that it is very dangerous advice. Since 1998 rules have been in force stating that seat belts should be fitted on all coaches and minibuses which carry children. That clearly applies to a very large number of coaches and minibuses as very few of them could make a living unless they carried children for at least part of the time.

The EU directive which we discussed a couple of weeks ago and to which I referred addresses the issue of wearing seat belts. The current position is that it is the driver's liability to ensure that all seat belts are worn, but that is very difficult indeed to enforce. The EU directive will help to have alternative enforcement measures.

Lord Bradshaw

My Lords, will the Minister, please, give careful consideration to the imposition of further regulations, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Janner? The Disability Discrimination Act, for example, requires all bus operators to have low-floor buses and access for wheelchairs. However, that is vitiated by the fact that sometimes buses cannot draw up alongside kerbs. People in wheelchairs and people with buggies cannot reach the buses because parked cars prevent the buses reaching the kerb. Will the Minister give attention to the secondary issue of clearing bus stops of parked vehicles so that the requirements of the Disability Discrimination Act can be complied with?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. These are important matters, and particularly important for people with disabilities, although they are not strictly related to the Question on the Order Paper, which is about safety. However, his words are taken very seriously.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one measure that would improve safety standards on coaches and buses would be to dissuade their drivers from using mobile phones while at the wheel? Is he aware that the proposed ban, which we have read about and is coming, on the use of mobile phones by drivers cannot come too soon for road safety organisations? They believe that a ban will make a fundamental difference to road safety generally.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I think that the position of the Department for Transport has been made very clear. There has been a lot of debate about this in your Lordships' House, and I am sure that those who have taken part in those debates will be pleased to know that we are taking action along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner.

Viscount Simon

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that holders of a driving licence in the state of New South Wales, in Australia, automatically lose their licence if they are not wearing a seat belt, regardless of whether they were driving? Does he agree that the introduction of similar legislation in this country would not only concentrate the minds of those who do not wear seat belts but reduce deaths on the road?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

No, my Lords. I was not aware of that; but, having driven in New South Wales myself, I shall examine my conscience very closely. It seems draconian, but if it works, then no doubt it is worth investigating, and we shall.