HL Deb 03 December 2002 vol 641 cc1048-63

4.19 p.m.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Rural Affairs. The Statement is as follows:

"Mr Speaker, it is an honour and a privilege to outline to the House my proposals for legislation to enable Parliament to reach a conclusion on the issue of hunting with dogs. Few people would regard that as the most important issue for Parliament and government to resolve, but it is a serious issue on which many Members of the House and of the public have strong and polarised views. That is why we must return to the matter again.

"The last time that Parliament considered a Bill on hunting with dogs, no agreement was reached between the House of Commons and the House of Lords. That is why our manifesto promised to, 'enable Parliament to reach a conclusion on the issue of hunting with dogs'. And that is why my right honourable friend the Prime Minister gave me the job of fulfilling our manifesto promise by designing legislation to command support in Parliament and to make good law—legislation that will stand the test of time.

"At the request of the Campaign for the Protection of the Hunted Animal and the Countryside Alliance, I took the conclusions of the Burns inquiry as my starting point. His terms of reference required Lord Burns to consider all aspects of hunting with dogs, and the authority of his report is acknowledged on all sides.

"The key issues emerging from the Burns report were cruelty and utility. Those two principles have run like a golden thread through the consultation process. Everything has been tested against those principles: are we preventing cruelty and are we recognising what farmers and others need to do to eradicate vermin or to protect their livestock or crops or the bio-diversity of an area?

"My Bill is based on the answers to those two questions. After my Statement in March, I started a wide-ranging consultation process involving all interested parties, Members of Parliament and the public. Initially, the response generated more heat than light. About 7,000 people wrote asking me to leave everything unchanged. That matched about 7,000 who asked me to 'just ban everything'. However, others wrote detailed contributions based on evidence and their personal experience.

"In May, I asked for detailed evidence to be submitted against a set of questions and criteria based on considering the issues of cruelty and utility and other questions raised by the evidence that I had received by that time. The amount of serious engagement increased greatly. In September, I chaired a series of public hearings in Portcullis House. The three main campaigning groups participated in full. Together, we heard expert witnesses from all sides of the argument who debated the merit of applying the principles of cruelty and utility to the activity of hunting mammals with dogs.

"I want to pay tribute to the leaders of those groups—the Countryside Alliance, the Campaign for the Protection of the Hunted Animal and the Middle Way Group—who fully engaged in a mature and intelligent manner with an issue on which each of them felt passionately and deeply. During the consultation, both sides have welcomed and praised a process that has been fair, open and transparent.

"The two principles of cruelty and utility provide the golden thread that runs from the start to the finish of the process and through the drafting of the Bill. That golden thread is strengthened by the integrity of the process, basis of principle and strong focus on evidence that has led me to conclusions that, I hope, will command the support of the House.

"I will publish a Bill this afternoon, but in advance of that, let me take this opportunity to outline the reasoning behind my conclusions. There has been support from all the organisations involved for the idea of drafting legislation on the basis of evidence and the two principles of cruelty and utility. That in itself is significant and should be noted by Members opposite.

"On a number of occasions, John Jackson, chairman of the Countryside Alliance, said: 'if something is cruel, we should not be doing it'. Animal welfare organisations have acknowledged utility: things that need to be done for such purposes as eradicating vermin or protecting livestock. Indeed, they included a list of exemptions in the Deadline 2000 option that we debated in the last Parliament. The Middle Way Group has also acknowledged the validity of those two principles.

"So the legislation is designed to recognise utility and prevent cruelty. Let me briefly spell out what that means. The utility test involves asking what is necessary to prevent serious damage to livestock, crops and other property or biological diversity. The cruelty test involves asking which effective methods of achieving that purpose cause the least suffering.

"All activities will be judged on the evidence available as to whether they meet both those tests. Where an activity has no utility and involves cruelty, it will not be allowed to continue. Incontrovertible evidence shows that the activities of hare coursing and deer hunting cannot meet the two tests, so those activities will be banned. Where an activity with dogs has general utility and there is no generally less cruel method, it will be allowed. Again, incontrovertible evidence has shown that the activities of ratting and rabbiting should be allowed to continue and that will be dealt with in the Bill.

"For some activities the evidence is less clear cut. For these activities, I propose to set up an independent process to consider on a case-by-case basis whether particular activities involving dogs meet the two tests. That is consistent with the Burns findings. The procedure will require an application to an independent registrar to show why there is a need to undertake the proposed activity and that the cruelty test is satisfied. The procedure will then allow a prescribed animal welfare organisation to provide evidence as well.

"If the registrar is satisfied that both tests are met, he will grant registration. If not, he will refuse. In considering applications, the registrar will also have to consider whether the applicant will be able to comply with standard conditions, such as requiring hunted animals to be killed quickly and humanely when caught. Applicants may also specify conditions to which their hunting will be subject.

"If either side wants to appeal against the decision, they can do so to an independent tribunal. The tribunal will be a national body with a president at its head appointed by the Lord Chancellor. A panel will have a legally qualified chairman, normally sitting with two other members, one with land management experience and the other with animal welfare experience.

"That is similar to the fair and effective way in which housing and employment law have been dealt with to a high standard for many years. Let me stress that we will not establish local tribunals. At every stage, there will be balance, fairness, clear principles, transparency and an emphasis on evidence within a process based on clear tests that enables hunters and those concerned with animal welfare to present their evidence.

"The onus is now on those who want to undertake any activity to show that they can meet the tests of utility and cruelty. They may find ways of changing their activity to meet the two tests. That will be a matter for them, and I shall not prejudge the independent registrar. What is clear is that if they cannot meet the tests, the activity cannot continue. It is simple: if the activity cannot meet the tests, the activity will not happen; if it can, it will.

"A number of commentators have tried to suggest that we intend going beyond the issue of hunting with dogs to other country sports. I want to make clear that there is no such intention. It is spelled out in our manifesto commitment: 'we have no intention whatsoever of placing restrictions on the sports of angling and shooting'. "I am also convinced by the evidence that there is no need to control falconry within the provisions of my Bill. In falconry, dogs are used to flush out quarry, so for the avoidance of doubt the Bill will specify such activities as exempted activities.

"It may be argued that the two principles of utility and cruelty on which I am basing my proposals do not go wide enough. The social and economic contribution of hunting will be mentioned, or the argument that ancient freedoms should not be interfered with. Those are serious points. I do not take them lightly. But the key point is that nobody has—nor should have—a right to inflict unnecessary suffering on animals. Of course, we want to keep to a minimum the constraints on people's behaviour and activity, but to ask for the liberty to be cruel would be absurd. Parliament has the right to set limits and has done so in the past. That is what this Bill does.

"The Bill seeks to prevent cruelty associated with hunting with dogs. Even being registered will not allow people to undertake activities in such a way as to cause avoidable or unnecessary suffering. People will be registered to hunt certain species with dogs in a specific area. They will not have licence to be cruel.

"Let us not forget that we have to address the issue and bring it to a sensible resolution in a way that will stand the test of time rather than being a quick fix or a temporary solution that cannot be implemented. My conclusions are based on evidence and principle, not prejudice on either side of the argument. I hope that Members on both sides will see the merit of the proposals. They are fair and reasonable; they balance principle and evidence; and they can be enforced.

"Most people want to see cruelty prevented. They also want farmers, gamekeepers and others who have to manage the land to be able to do so. There is no magic wand. There is no quick win. The basis of principle and evidence provides a golden thread that runs through the whole process and provides authority for the proposals themselves. I believe that the proposals will stand the test of time and are right. I commend them to the House".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

4.29 p.m.

Baroness Byford

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in another place—after, as too often happens, the Government leaked it to the press in advance. We shall all have to wait to read the Bill's detail, but I am grateful to the Minister for outlining the Government's thoughts.

Am I alone in finding the Statement an astonishing reflection of the Government's priorities? Nothing is working properly in the country: not the trains; not the roads; not the health service; not, as we shall hear shortly, the examination system; and not, as we card last week, the Chancellor's management of the economy. There is so much to do—so much that the Government have touched, tinkered and tampered with and made worse.

We have a public pre-occupied with the growth of industrial action. We face a major threat from international terrorism. We have a nation on the verge of being taken to war with Iraq. To cap it all, we have daily reports of strife at the highest levels of government. It is against that background that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, unveils the flagship item of this Session's legislative programme—a Bill to ban hunting.

It will not be in the countryside only that the Government's sense of priorities will be utterly disbelieved. Whatever Bill is presented to us later today we cannot be sure that it will be the same Bill as will be introduced to another place. I state clearly that we on this side have a free vote. It is not a party issue.

In this response I speak for my party in condemning the bizarre sense of legislative priority, but I speak for myself now in expressing my views. I am bitterly disappointed in the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. We heard a lot of fine talk about compromise. But there should be no doubt that the end result of the proposals put forward will mean the end of hunting in most tracts of our countryside; the alienation and criminalisation of law-abiding people; and, ironically, the control of foxes by means far more cruel than those already in place and anything that takes place in a properly conducted hunt.

Who do the Government think that will please? It will not please the fanatics who want a total ban on all country sports, or the abolitionists on Labour's Back Benches in another place who have already made clear that they will try to amend the Bill. The Government have not only lost their sense of priorities, they seem to be losing their political touch, too.

What is it with this Government and the countryside? We are living through the greatest collapse of farm incomes and the gravest rural economic crisis in living memory. We have endured the agony of foot and mouth and the government-driven cruelty of the slaughter of millions of animals. And now we have this proposal. However it is dressed, it will be seen as an erosion of ancient freedoms and a passport to the destruction of a large part of our country life.

The Government would be unwise to anticipate an easy ride. I fear that the Bill is a divisive Bill that cannot be driven either through another place or through your Lordships' House without impacting on other parts of the Government's legislative programme. And no so-called "modernisation" of procedure will change that.

We shall look carefully at the Bill when it is published, but I shall ask questions immediately. There is to be rabbiting, ratting and falconry; a little bit of hunting in some places; and no hunting in other places. Where is the logic in that? Where is the principle? Where is the "golden thread", mentioned repeatedly by the Minister, running through the proposed legislation? I fear that it is a pretty slender thread.

What is the case for placing the onus on country people to prove their innocence? Is not that one more example of the changing of the onus of proof to the accused, as we have seen in too many Bills recently from the Government? For how long will the proposed licences be granted? Will they be permanent licences, or time limited? On what grounds will the so-called "independent registrar"—an unelected official—be given life and death powers over hunting? Is not the so-called "independent tribunal" a beast on which the views of one member and another will inevitably disagree, with the casting vote perhaps going to the president appointed by the Lord Chancellor? That looks suspiciously like a right of appeal from one government department being given to an appointee of another. Who will those people be? Will conservation and employment be a criteria that affect their judgment on utility?

Finally, I do not want to turn to individual activities. There will be ample scope for that in Committee. Does the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, have any idea of the scale of damage that a ban on stag hunting will have on the fragile economy of Exmoor and the West Country?

However one looks at it, it is an anti-hunting Bill. Hunting and country people have gone a long way to meet the Government. They consulted and they talked to the Government. They proposed constructive ways to move the debate forward. I am sure that spirit still remains. I hope that the Government will not pursue a divisive and damaging course that may play well with their Back-Benchers at a time of growing difficulty for the Government.

The Minister's right honourable friend was right when he said that few people will regard this as the most important issue facing Parliament. Does the Minister have any influence? Is it too late for him to persuade his right honourable friend to draw the logical conclusions of his own Statement and set this Bill on one side to allow for further discussion?

I fear that what is proposed will divide the country even further and that the real priorities of the public will yet again be neglected.

4.36 p.m.

Lord Greaves

My Lords, I, too, on behalf of these Benches, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made in another place. For a long time the Liberal Democrats' official policy has been to support a ban on hunting with dogs. I hope that the Government, too, will have a free vote on the issue. We recognise that a whole range of views are held with deep conscience on this matter. Both in another place and here, if and when we vote on the matter, we shall no doubt find ourselves in different Lobbies.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, said, one of the difficulties of responding to the Statement and questioning the Minister today is that we do not know what will be in the Bill when it is published this afternoon. We have no idea what the other place will do to it on a free vote before it arrives here. Therefore, the discussion is difficult. I must add that it is unusual to have a Statement announcing that a Bill will be starting its progress through Parliament. That is not a normal procedure. In my view we should be discussing other issues rather than discussing this matter yet again in your Lordships' House.

If the Bill arrives and if your Lordships are prepared to return it in some form, it should be done expeditiously and that should be the end of parliamentary debate. Indeed, the Statement repeatedly says that it is important that the proposals stand the test of time.

The first major question I have is whether the proposals are likely to do that. The mechanism being set up seems designed to result in a series of continuing arguments, area by area, hunt by hunt, before the tribunals. Rather than settling the argument, there must be at least a strong possibility that it will merely keep it rumbling on month after month, year after year. Sooner or later it will no doubt end up back in Parliament.

My personal view is that hunting with dogs should not be allowed. People can judge anything else that I say in the light of that, although I am trying to take an objective view.

Noble Lords

Oh!

Lord Greaves

No, my Lords. I am trying to take an objective view of the Statement. I believe that hunting with dogs should not be allowed. If that is not the view of Parliament—if the Bill cannot be got through Parliament—my second choice is that the current situation should continue more or less as it is. The third way proposals, which have been associated with, among others, some of my Liberal Democrat colleagues, and the current proposal risk becoming a real can of worms. They will not bring this question to a close; they will merely continue it year after year. I believe that the Government have the right to bring the matter before Parliament. They should have done so several years ago and sought a firm resolution of it then but they were not able—or not prepared—to do so.

I turn to the meaning of cruelty and utility. When the Bill is published, will it clearly define those words? According to the Statement, they are supposed to be the golden thread that will bind all of this together. However, the Statement contained the assertion that meeting the two tests will be a decision for the independent registrar. It stated: I shall not prejudge the independent registrar". If the Government are not prepared to prejudge the tribunal that they will set up, what understanding do they have of the likely outcomes of the process that they are establishing? I hope that the Minister can tell us. What is his best estimate of how much fox hunting will remain in this country if the Bill is enacted and the procedure is set up? The Government must have an idea of that; if they have not, it would be extraordinary for them to introduce the Bill. Are they in fact saying, "We are passing the buck to other people. We do not know what the outcome will be"? I hope that the Minister will tell us what the expected outcome is likely to be.

Finally, if the Bill is passed, what levels of supervision and control of the remaining hunts are there likely to be, once those hunts have been allowed to continue by the tribunal? Will that involve the sort of regime envisaged by the Middle Way Group or has that all been put to one side? Once hunts have been told, "Yes, you can continue", will that simply involve the current situation?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, both spokespeople for the Opposition dealt with the Bill in a calm and sensible way, which, as your Lordships will be aware, has not always been the case in relation to this subject.

The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and, to some extent, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, understandably asked: why are we giving this matter priority? As my right honourable friend said in the Statement, this may not he the most major issue but it has been around for an awfully long time, it has caused a serious problem between this House and another place and it needs to be resolved. The timing of that was in effect determined in our manifesto at the previous election: we needed a period of consultation to establish whether there was consensus. We have advanced a proposition that at least reflects many of the points put to my right honourable friend during that consultation, although it may not create an entire consensus. In particular, the issues involved are: is it cruel or more cruel than other methods of control and is it useful? In that context, is it useful with regard to damage to livestock, crops and biodiversity?

This issue, as I said, has been around for a long time and it needs to be resolved; it will be resolved by this parliamentary process. If the end result feared by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, means, in effect, the end of hunting, that in itself would have to be a concession. Hunting with dogs is inevitably cruel and there is no way in which the utility can outweigh the cruelty. We are looking at a balance between cruelty and the avoidance of suffering, and utility in terms of pest control and crop protection.

This issue will be dealt with by another place in the first instance with a free vote on, I believe, all sides of the House and it will be dealt with here with a free vote on all sides of the House. We have also said that at the end of the process we want to resolve the issue. By considering the proposals in another place and here, I hope that we will recognise their merits. No one will be 100 per cent satisfied by the proposals but they reflect the key issues.

It is all very well for the noble Baroness to talk about the erosion of ancient liberties. However, if, as a result of a mature judgment, those ancient liberties are seen to maintain a system that involves unnecessary cruelty to animals, those ancient liberties, frankly, have to go. If, however, a balance can be demonstrated in favour of hunting or hunting can be adjusted to alter that balance, those liberties can, to that extent, be maintained.

I was a little concerned about the response of the noble Baroness; she does not normally utter threats. I was not clear whether she was speaking for herself or the Opposition when she referred to the effects on other parts of the legislative programme. This issue needs to be dealt with on its merits one way or another, just like any other piece of legislation. Part of the problem with regard to the way in which this House and another place previously dealt with such legislation is that somehow its significance was elevated above that of other legislation.

Baroness Byford

My Lords, I suggested that on all sides of the House this is a very controversial issue and that it will take time; my remarks should not he taken in any other way. The Minister slightly misunderstood what I said. This is a controversial Bill, which I believe he accepts, and the time that we spend going through it will obviously take away from the time that we can spend on the other Bills that I listed, which we will not be tackling.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, to that degree, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her clarification.

The noble Baroness asked a number of questions, in particular about how the registration system would work. A registration will operate initially for three years and it will be renewable. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked whether hunting could continue and under what terms: there may be conditions attached to the registration. If those conditions are not met, the registration could be withdrawn. Normally, it would last for three years. Inspectors from prescribed animal welfare bodies will be empowered to inspect the hunting arrangements.

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, slightly surprised me when, expressing his own views on the matter, he said that he would rather have the status quo than something short of an absolute and crude ban. That is an odd position for the Liberal Democrats to take on this issue.

Lord Greaves

My Lords, I made it clear that that was my view, not that of the Liberal Democrats.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, the first part of what the noble Lord said was his view and I should hope that none of it was the Liberal Democrat view.

On the Bill's definitions, cruelty will mean unnecessary suffering to animals and utility will mean the prevention of damage to, in effect, the agricultural sector and in terms of biodiversity. Both of those terms will be narrowly defined.

The noble Lord challenged me to estimate the extent to which hunting would remain operational as a result of these proceedings. He knows very well that I shall not rise to that challenge. We suggest that the registrar will take an independent judgment on these matters; having dealt with matters in that way, it would be wrong for the Government to imply that we have a target one way or the other. The Bill will achieve a reduction in the total amount of unnecessary cruelty resulting from hunting and the issue will have been resolved in this Parliament. No doubt noble Lords will raise other points.

4.50 p.m.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, the Minister said that there would be a free vote in this House. Will there be a free vote in the House of Commons?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, I said that there would be a free vote in both Houses. Perhaps the noble Lord did not hear me. I said that as far as my party is concerned there will be a free vote in both Houses.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, will the Minister take back to his colleagues the thought that it might be a good idea if the Government stopped interfering in everyone's business the whole time? Here we have a sport which has been going on for hundreds of years and all of sudden it is to be criminalised. The noble Lord says that this is as a result of mature judgment. It is nothing of the kind. If we are such a mature society, why do so many people end up in prison? The answer is that we are not a mature society. Does the Minister agree that the Government are making a great mistake in saying that we should abandon all these sports and kill all the hounds and horses? I do not go hunting at all but it seems to me that what is proposed, on the basis that it will stop some cruelty, is to see the issue completely the wrong way round. Does the noble Lord agree?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, for well over 100 years this Parliament has had a record of taking legislative means to reduce cruelty to animals. There is a dispute about the degree of cruelty involved in this respect but it is not an innovative thing for Parliament to legislate to reduce cruelty to animals. This is the next step. I referred to mature judgment. There are polarised views on this issue. A step was taken which brought together, at least for a period, the various campaigning organisations. We tried to take the best of their views into account before proposing the process that will be incorporated in the Bill.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, I welcome the Statement and, in due course, the Bill. This long-running sore needs to be dealt with once and for all and here is an opportunity to do so. Can my noble friend enlarge on the exclusions from the ban? He mentioned ratting and rabbiting. Are there to be geographical exclusions? Or will they be nation-wide?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, they will be nation-wide exclusions. That applies also to falconry where the argument is slightly more balanced. But my right honourable friend has reached the conclusion that falconry should also be excluded. All of the exclusions will be national exclusions.

Viscount Bledisloe

My Lords, the noble Lord said that the purpose of the legislation is to prevent unnecessary suffering to particular mammals. He will be aware that the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, has brought forward a Bill to make illegal unnecessary suffering by any wild animal. Do the Government support that Bill? If it is passed, will it not render this legislation wholly unnecessary?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, the original Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, was withdrawn. However, it could have potentially dealt with a much wider range of issues than provided for within the Bill we are now discussing. Hunting with dogs has caused huge controversy for years. It is an issue we need to resolve. We shall propose further legislation on animal welfare more generally, but this is the issue that has caused the controversy we are now attempting to resolve.

Lord Tebbit

My Lords, how did the Government come to conclude that it is unacceptably cruel for a hound to bite the back of the neck and sever the spinal cord of a fox but that it is perfectly acceptable for a terrier to carry out the same operation upon a rat or a rabbit?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, it is the balance between the degree of cruelty and the unnecessary nature of the cruelty rather than the absolute pain of the animal. We are talking about unnecessary suffering. If you are trying to get rid of rats there will be some suffering involved. We are attempting to minimise the degree of suffering, but the term is "unnecessary suffering" balanced against the necessity for pest control in the first place.

Lord Palmer

My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister for clarification. The Statement says, we have no intention whatsoever of placing restrictions on the sports of angling and shooting". What, for example, would happen if the Scottish Executive introduced a Bill to ban such activities, as it has done already in regard to foxhunting? Would Westminster overrule Edinburgh?

Lord Whitty

No, my Lords. When I refer to "national" I mean that the Bill relates to England and Wales. This issue is devolved to Scotland. It can take its own decisions in this area. Therefore the decisions taken there do not in any way bind the UK Government in relation to England and Wales. Nor is Scotland subject to the UK Parliament in this respect.

I can perhaps take this opportunity of correcting something I said earlier. Although the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, was withdrawn, it was immediately replaced due to a technical error. I am sorry for misleading the noble Viscount.

Lord Mancroft

My Lords, as a board member of the Countryside Alliance, I pay tribute to Mr Alun Michael for the very open and careful way he carried out this difficult consultation process. We shall look very carefully at the Bill when it is brought forward and try to play as constructive a role as possible.

Having said that, I should like to ask the Minister about the licensing or registration system. We are told that the onus will be on the people who want to undertake any activity to show that they can meet the tests of utility and cruelty. That is all very well. However, bearing in mind that the experts at the public hearings made perfectly clear—as, indeed, did the noble Lord, Lord Burns, in his excellent report—that there was not sufficient evidence to come to a safe conclusion on cruelty, can the Minister tell the House how ordinary citizens will be able to do so if the experts cannot?

Why is conservation not mentioned in the list of features in the utility definition? The conservation of our countryside is paramount and hunting's role in that is most important. That appears to have been missed out. Is there a reason?

Can the Minister tell the House what is a prescribed animal welfare organisation, bearing in mind the helpful contribution during the hearings of Sir Ronald Waterhouse, who made it perfectly clear that it would be very difficult to have an animal welfare organisation that had been for years campaigning against a particular activity responsible for regulating it? I believe he used the analogy of having someone from the temperance society on a licensing board.

I studied the Burns report as carefully as any noble Lord, possibly more than most; I attended the hearings and I took as much part as I possibly could. I could not see a single scrap of evidence to justify a ban on stag hunting and on coursing. If the Government were so confident that these activities could not meet the cruelty and utility tests, they, too, should be subject to registration. If they could not meet those tests they would not get a licence. I get a feeling that the dangerously fragile community of Exmoor and the small and equally fragile coursing community will be the political footballs which are kicked to the Minister's Back-Bench colleagues. It has nothing to do with utility or cruelty.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, as to conservation, the Statement refers—this will be a reference in the Bill—to the protection of livestock, crops and bio-diversity. There is therefore at least some reference to conservation.

I am not in a position to give a definitive list of the designated animal welfare organisations. Obviously, there are organisations which self-evidently might fulfil that title. However, we want to proceed on the basis of as much consensus as possible.

The noble Lord referred to hare coursing and, I think, deer hunting. We want to restrict ambiguity in the Bill. There is evident cruelty in hare coursing with no significant utility in that activity. The balance was therefore clear and there was not an issue of judgment for the registrar to take. We also considered the evidence in the Burns report and that given to the hearings in regard to deer hunting. We concluded that there is evidence that deer hunting with dogs cannot meet the criteria in relation to the avoidance of unnecessary suffering. Therefore, again, there was not an issue of judgment for the registrar to take.

Baroness Mallalieu

My Lords, join other noble Lords in thanking the Minister for repeating the Statement. I declare an interest as president of the Countryside Alliance and as someone who hunts regularly with foxhounds and most particularly with deer-hounds in the West Country.

Does the Minister agree that we all want to achieve legislation that has the respect and support of the rural communities to which it will apply; legislation which, it is to be hoped, will not create a constitutional crisis between the two Houses; and which will not result, as that in Scotland has, in damage to animal welfare?

I am greatly concerned about the explanation that the Minister has just given about deer hunting. Will he look carefully with his colleagues at the material that was placed before my right honourable friend Mr Alun Michael from the National Park on Exmoor to the effect that a ban on deer hunting would have a devastating effect on the local economy, on the local community and on the deer herd'? Will he re-examine the independent report prepared by Professor Savage for the National Trust which said that simply to impose a ban on deer hunting without making a considerable number of other legislative changes—in particular in relation to firearms, following up wounded deer on other people's land and so on—would have a devastating effect on the deer herd there?

Finally, does the Minister agree that it would be wrong, in order to resolve human conflicts—differences of opinion between people in this House and another place—to take steps which destroy one of the great jewels of those western moorlands; namely, our deer herd? That could happen if a ban is imposed and there is no alternative management structure in place. What do the Government propose to do about imposing such a structure and financing it?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, my right honourable friend has seen the evidence that was submitted in relation to deer hunting and has taken careful note of the argument. He has visited Exmoor and has spoken to a significant number of people there who are concerned not only with the effects of the impact of the Bill but also with developing a positive deer management strategy. His conclusion in relation to the terms of the Bill was that the evidence was fairly clear that deer hunting as it is carried out cannot meet the test of cruelty. I repeat: in those circumstances it was not sensible to put it into the box where the registrar had to make an issue of judgment.

I accept that there will need to be some new measures in certain parts of the country in relation to the management of deer. That is the matter on which my right honourable friend was attempting to start discussion when he visited Exmoor. That does not override the objective of the Bill, which is to avoid unnecessary cruelty. His judgment and the judgment of the Government is that deer hunting does fall into that category.

Lord Kimball

My Lords, as deputy president of the Countryside Alliance, I ask the Minister: is it not sensible to assume that the Bill that will come to this House from the Commons will probably be very different from the Bill that is envisaged in the Statement? Might it not be sensible to set up a Select Committee of this House to review the evidence that was given at the Portcullis House inquiry?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, the procedures of this House are a matter for the House. I do not believe that that would be a sensible procedure. The evidence has been gone over, first, by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and by the process that I have described. There are not a huge number of new arguments to be discussed. As to whether the Bill will be exactly the same as the one being introduced today, that is a matter for another place on a free vote. Therefore, I can neither agree nor disagree with the noble Lord.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I, like others, am puzzled by the decision to allow cuddly rabbits to be hunted by dogs but not pestilential foxes? Why is that so? Is it because the rabbits are followed by people in jeans and tee-shirts and the foxes by people in red jackets and bowler hats? Is that perhaps the reason?

The following paragraph appears on page 4 of the Statement: A number of commentators have tried to suggest that there is an intention of going beyond the issue of hunting with dogs to other country sports. I want to make it clear that there is no such intention. It is spelt out in our manifesto commitment: 'we have no intention whatsoever of placing restrictions on the sports of angling and shooting'". But how long is that for? The manifesto operates only until the end of this Parliament. Is the Minister prepared to give an absolute assurance that new Labour will never bring forward any propositions on any legislation to ban angling and shooting?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, as my noble friend—my ex-noble friend as, regrettably, I must call him these days—is well aware, no government or Parliament can completely bind the next. The views of the Labour Party and the Labour Government were clearly expressed in that manifesto and have been clearly reiterated today.

As to whether this is in a sense a class issue—or a dress issue—people will be perfectly able to go around wearing hunting pink and rabbiting as a result of the Bill. It has nothing to do with that. It is a question of whether the balance of utility as regards vermin—rats and rabbits—is such that it outweighs any concern about unnecessary cruelty in those areas. That is the judgment that has been made in terms of that exclusion.

Lord Willoughby de Broke

My Lords, I should like to pursue a point made by my noble friend Lord Mancroft. He mentioned that in the tribunal there would be one member with land management experience and one with animal welfare experience. Is the Minister aware that during the hearing earlier this summer at Portcullis House chaired by his right honourable friend Mr Alun Michael, the representative of the RSPCA was asked by Lembit Öpik, the Liberal Democrat MP, whether the RSPCA's main aim was to ban hunting or to improve animal welfare? After much prodding, the answer was that the aim was to ban hunting. Is it right that that organisation should even consider being represented on any tribunal sitting in judgment on anyone applying for a hunting licence?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, the proposal does not prescribe which organisation anyone should come from. But it is clear that there are two sides to these arguments. Those who have experience of land management are by and large in favour of something like the status quo; those who have experience of animal welfare are by and large in favour of restricting or banning hunting. That is bound to be the position, although not exclusively so. We want a balanced tribunal, as we have in many other respects, with a legally qualified chair. That is the tried and tested method for resolving issues where there are different interests and where there are bound to be different initial opinions, as there are in almost every tribunal. The point is to come to a conclusion based on the merits of a particular case.

Lord Monson

My Lords, taking up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, after all their lengthy consultations and researches, have the Government any hard evidence that hunting is more cruel than shooting or fishing? If, as most of us suspect, they have no such evidence, how on earth can they justify singling out hunting for criminalisation, unless it is for reasons of comparative electoral advantage?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, I assume that the noble Lord's last remark indicates that there is a popular support for at least some degree of restriction on hunting, whereas clearly there is not for restricting shooting and fishing in the way that he suggests.

As to the issue of cruelty, what has clearly caused a polarisation of opinion is whether or not the way in which the animal is killed at the end of a hunt is unnecessary cruelty over and beyond other forms of vermin control. It is generally the view of those who wish to restrict or ban hunting that that is the case. That is the issue that has to be resolved. That is the process that we have put into operation by means of the Statement and the Bill introduced in another place today. That issue will be resolved in this Parliament.