Public Sector Jobs (Hansard, 15 April 2002)

Lord Campbell of Croy
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they foresee further significant reductions in the next five years in jobs in the public services through redundancies.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, public services are, self-evidently, a high priority for the Government. Generally, we expect staff numbers to increase over the next five years, in support of increasing levels of public service provision. Between 1997 and 2000, the number of public sector jobs increased by 140,000.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Following the recent closing of post offices throughout the country, can he confirm that between 2,000 and 3,000 urban post offices are also to be closed in the next two years? Are the Government preparing the way for employees to find work elsewhere?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the closure of post offices has proceeded over a considerable number of years, not only under one administration. But I agree that it is a fact that Consignia has plans to close a large number of urban post offices. Clearly, the jobs of those who work in such post offices, whether they are themselves sub-postmasters or employees, is very much a concern of the management of Consignia, which has responsibility for these matters.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, over the past 20 years, the public service has been bedevilled by the constant belief by successive governments that services somehow can be provided more efficiently or of a higher quality in the private sector? Is it not time for the Government to declare their belief in the public service ethos and to provide the resources and training that will give us a public service and the public servants whom we can be proud of and who can be proud of their jobs?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, it has been time to do that for the past five years and the Government have been doing it for the past five years. We have never subscribed to the view that the public sector is bad and the private sector is good. We have always taken the view that the quality of life in and, indeed, the economy of this country depend on an effective and flourishing public sector. In addition to that general recognition, we are very much taking the steps to which the noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred. We have been carrying out a cross-cutting review of the public sector labour market with the specific aim of ensuring that we strike a proper balance between supply and demand.

§ Lord Roberts of Conwy
My Lords, the noble Lord gave the figure of 140,000 as the increase over the past five years. Does he anticipate that the future increase in public sector employment will be of the same order, smaller or larger than the figure he gave for the past five years?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the figure I gave was for three years rather than five years. Yes, we expect that there will be further increases. If we consider that the figure of 140,000 includes, for example, an additional 12,000 teachers, an additional 24,000 full-time equivalent support staff in our schools, an additional 20,000 nurses and midwives, and an additional 7,000 doctors, and then look at staffing levels in our health and education services— to take only two examples—it can be seen that there is scope for further increases.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the considerable emphasis now being placed on public/private partnerships will involve the transfer of many people from public sector employment into the private sector? If so, will those workers' rights be protected?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
Yes, my Lords, PPPs could well involve transfers from the public to the private sector. However, the original Question addressed the matter of redundancies in the public sector, which would not arise in the case of a transfer. I can confirm that the transfer of undertakings regulations do provide protection to those who are transferred.

§ Baroness Byford
My Lords, perhaps I may return to the original response given by the Minister to my noble friend with regard to post offices. The Minister knows that there is great concern among those who use post offices, not least among those who collect their benefits and pension payments from post offices. If such post offices are to be fewer in number, so that the cost of having to go and collect benefits and pensions rises, will any other provision be made to help people in those circumstances?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, other provisions are being made to help people in those circumstances, such as the extension of banking services and the plans for a universal bank, as well as facilities to have benefits payments paid directly into an account, including a universal bank account. These are very much designed to help people who find it difficult to get to a post office now, let alone after any reduction in the network.

§ The Earl of Northesk
My Lords, are the difficulties of Consignia an example of the Government's commitment to what works in the context of public services?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the principle of what works was made evident in my reply to the 683 noble Lord, Lord McNally. We are not ideologically opposed to or supportive of either the public or the private sector. We believe that the public sector works in a large number of areas where the private sector clearly does not work. So far as concerns the Post Office and Consignia, clearly there are problems with Consignia and its economic viability which must be addressed by the Consignia management.

Baroness Sharpies
My Lords, the noble Lord referred to large numbers of new nurses and teachers. How do those figures compare with the number of people in fact leaving the teaching and nursing professions?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the figures I gave were net increases in the teaching and NHS workforces. They are not recruitment figures.