Industrial and Commercial Redundancies (Hansard, 30 October 2001)

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, employers are required to notify the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry only when they are proposing to make 20 or more redundancies at one establishment within a 90-day period. Adding up these notifications would not give a true picture. It would under-estimate the number of redundancies, as it would not include those involving fewer than 20 dismissals; and it would overestimate the number, as it would relate to proposed rather than actual redundancies, which are sometimes avoided—the two do not cancel each other out.

§ Lord Roberts of Conwy
My Lords, I am not surprised at the noble Lord's failure to answer my Question. Does he agree that, in spite of the unexpectedly good growth figures for the first quarter, the outlook for employment, output and investment is deeply worrying for the future? Should not the Government take decisive action to shore up business confidence in the interests of all concerned?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I am notorious for seeking to answer the Question on the Order Paper rather than seeking to make cheap political points of the kind that the noble Lord invites me to make. His Question relates to the period since May 1997. Since that time the number of jobs in this country has increased by 1¼ million and unemployment has decreased by 584,000. In Wales, 24,000 new jobs have been created and there are 32,000 fewer unemployed.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, will the noble Lord admit, however, that there is a very real chance of an increase in redundancies in the next six or 12 months? As the Government are reviewing industrial relations legislation, is this not a good time also to review the provisions in respect of redundancy? For example, should we not examine the fact that no one receives any redundancy payments until he or she has been in a job for two years? There is also the fact that he or she cannot go out and look for work with permission from the employer unless he or she has worked for two years. Surely now is the time to improve our redundancy laws, just as we have had to review the laws on unfair dismissal. As they stand, they are almost certainly sex discriminatory and they represent indirect discrimination.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I appreciate the point that my noble friend makes about redundancy assistance. However, the issue goes a good deal wider than the statutory redundancy payments, 1298 which are based not only on service but on age and contractual income. Assistance also includes help and information on job-seeking and retraining. All those points should be taken into account.

§ Lord Razzall
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will share the surprise on these Benches at the words of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, and the U-turn on the Conservative Benches towards interventionist economic policies. However, will he accept that there is a serious issue here, particularly with regard to manufacturing industry in this country? Actual redundancies are occurring as I speak and prospective redundancies have been forecast by a number of major manufacturing companies. What do the Government propose to do about that?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
Yes, my Lords, of course I accept that point. I welcome the noble Lord's support for the Government's position as opposed to the changing position of the Official Opposition. Clearly, with a great increase in economic uncertainty in the world and disturbances in global markets, there will be continued problems, in particular with manufacturing employment in this country. They are not answered simply by the assistance to which I referred earlier; they must be answered by the continuing policies of stability and growth that have informed this Government's economic policies over the past four and a half years.

§ Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the survey by Ernst & Young indicating in relation to UK manufacturers that the profit warnings level between July and September this year is the highest ever? What is the Government's estimate of what this may mean to future employment, and what do they intend to do about it?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, we shall set out our estimates of the economic situation, including employment, when we produce the Pre-Budget Report next month. We do not provide a running commentary between the Pre-Budget Report and the Budget.

§ Lord Boardman
My Lords, will the noble Lord answer the Question? It relates to the number of private sector industrial and commercial redundancies announced since the general election. That is very different from stating that he cannot say how many are taking place. Following all the Minister's qualifications, will he answer the Question?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I gave the Answer in considerable detail. There are no figures announced for industrial and commercial redundancies. The only figures available to the Government are those that are notified when there are more than 20 redundancies in one establishment over a 90-day period. There is no answer available to the Government on the specific Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts—which is why I attempted to be rather more helpful

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, how many of those were there?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the figures would not be meaningful. I do not know why I have to repeat myself. They do not represent redundancies, because they miss out all the smaller redundancies; they do not add up, because many of the proposed redundancies that are announced never take place. It would be meaningless, and I should be misleading the House, were I to attempt to give such figures.