HL Deb 29 November 2001 vol 629 cc451-5

3.12 p.m.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as the new president of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents.

The Question was as follows:

When Her Majesty's Government expect to make a statement on the implementation of the national road safety strategy.

Lord Filkin

My Lords, the Government's road safety strategy sets challenging targets for massive reductions in road deaths and serious injuries by 2010. Regular reports are posted on the department's website. The latest, for the period ending September 2001, has now been published.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that on page 31 of the strategy document, it states: if we fail to persuade drivers not to use mobile phones while driving, we will review the case for taking specific legislation"? How long will it take for the Government to be persuaded? If any of your Lordships go into Parliament Square they will see scores of drivers with one hand pressing a phone to their ear and the other attempting to control a motor vehicle. Given that a Private Member's Bill in another place deals specifically with the subject, would not the simplest thing be for the Government to take it over and get it passed quickly?

Lord Filkin

My Lords, I shall start by setting out the clear target that the Government have set themselves by 2010, which is to reduce road deaths by 1,500 lives a year and serious injuries as a result of road accidents by 15,000.

The Government are therefore making judgments about the best way to achieve those remarkably serious targets. The evidence so far—supported by the Association of Chief Police Officers—is that existing road traffic legislation is adequate and provides sufficient powers for the police to deal with offences in that respect. They have power to prosecute for improper control of a vehicle.

Lord Astor of Hever

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former president of RoSPA, and welcome the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, to his new position. Will the Minister seriously rethink that judgment? Evidence from coroners' inquests and police investigations shows that the use of handheld mobile phones causes fatal accidents.

Lord Filkin

My Lords, the Government's position is quite clear: the use of mobile phones in cars should not take place. It is inadvisable and drivers would do much better to desist. The same goes for hands-free use: that potentially distracts the driver from the road traffic situation. However, enforcement of a ban would not be simple, especially as people could easily switch to hands-free devices, for which there is still evidence of risk. The police can prosecute if there is an accident or if they believe that there is danger to the control of a vehicle.

Baroness Hayman

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I recognise his Answer on the adequacy of existing powers, having given it myself some years ago? Is he comfortable with the present degree of enforcement? Many of us share the concerns that have been expressed about the dangers inherent in such practice, and the legislative cover does not seem to be stopping it.

Lord Filkin

My Lords, noble Lords will be deeply surprised to learn that the Home Office figures are not disaggregated in that respect, so we do not know exactly what are the figures for prosecutions, although the matter will be kept under review.

We must consider the matter in the context of my original Answer. Our commitment to reduce deaths and serious injuries is strong. There is a widespread programme of action to achieve that, which I shall not bore the House by describing now. People are clearly advised not to use mobile phones. They will be prosecuted if by doing so they appear to cause an accident. But there are many other actions that, on the evidence before the Government, will lead to significantly greater reductions in deaths and serious injuries.

Baroness Scott of Needham Market

My Lords, the Government's road safety strategy highlights the fact that single-carriageway rural roads are the most dangerous class of highway in the country. In the light of that, what progress are the Government making to implement the review of rural speed limits promised in the Transport Act 2000? It is now almost a year since that Act was passed, and people are dying in numbers that would simply not be tolerated from any other cause.

Lord Filkin

My Lords, the Transport Act 2000 committed the Government to consider the development of rural road hierarchies for speed management purposes. If I recollect correctly, the noble Baroness had some part in that Act.

Yesterday, the Secretary of State laid before both Houses the report of an independent working group established to consider the practicability of differential speed limits throughout rural areas. The Government will be considering the implications, practicability and cost of such a scheme during the coming months.

Lord Tomlinson

My Lords, may I encourage my noble friend to improve his background reading on the subject of hand-held telephones by reading the Private Member's Bill introduced by my noble friend Lord Davies? If he read the debate on that Bill, when an excellent case was made in this House that was warmly regarded, he might have some stronger words to encourage the Home Office to produce better briefing for Answers in future.

Lord Filkin

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's advice on this occasion—as I am sure I will be in future. There is a danger of my being boring by repeating what I said earlier.

Noble Lords

Hear, hear!

Lord Filkin

My Lords, I was confident that the House would agree with me on that. The point about statistics for prosecutions is noted, but whatever the figure, we are still left with the challenge of whether a ban is the priority—whether it is effectively enforceable or whether we would just feel better by passing legislation. Legislation is usually relatively easy to pass—if not this week—but the Government must consider whether it will be efficacious.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, is the odious habit conducted at present—certainly by Westminster City Council—of finding every side road, digging it up at great expense and putting a huge great hump in it, supposed to be helpful in reducing road accidents? If so, will the Minister consider that it is greatly to the detriment of those travelling in and driving cars?

Lord Filkin

My Lords, I must declare two interests as a resident of Westminster and having the privilege of being a neighbour of the noble Earl. At times, I share his frustrations, but I shall be careful what I say from the Dispatch Box.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Thames Valley Police Authority recently introduced a scheme offering a reward of up to £500 to people who are prepared to inform on relatives, neighbours and friends who drink and drive? Is he in favour of that scheme and is it likely to be extended? How can confidentiality be assured in such circumstances, because if it is not I can see a great deal of fighting going on in streets and homes?

Lord Filkin

My Lords, the noble Lord, as a resident of Berkshire, makes an interesting point. It is clearly an operational matter for the Chief Constable. The Government's commitment is to continue the reduction in cases of drink driving which has been experienced during recent years. As noble Lords will know, the number of cases has declined from some 30,000 to some 18,000 in the current year.

Lord Peyton of Yeovil

My Lords—

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

My Lords—

The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn)

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

My Lords, does the Minister agree that if British drivers stuck to the speed limit as it appears in the middle or at the end of a road, there would be no need for humps and bumps in the road and there would be a great reduction in local authority expenditure on roads and bumps?

Lord Filkin

My Lords, I agree that if that were the case we would have a significant reduction in the number of road humps and in deaths—but we would probably already be in paradise if those circumstances had come about. To be serious about the issue, some 1,100 deaths and 12,000 serious injuries each year are predominantly associated with excessive speed. One hopes that in time we shall reach the situation that has occurred in relation to drink driving; that speeding is no longer seen as socially acceptable.

Lord Peyton of Yeovil

My Lords, arising from the question asked by my noble friend Lord Ferrers, does the Minister recall that his noble friend Lord Macdonald, when happily in charge of transport, took powers on behalf of the Government to deal with the menace of people who persist on digging holes in the road without caring a jot for the inconvenience and danger they cause to others? I want to know whether the Government have ever used those powers and to express the hope that they will.

Lord Filkin

My Lords, I am speaking from recollection rather than from recent reading, but I understand that the Government have moved forward in trying to make it possible to introduce penalties when operators exceed the nominated time periods they have set for roadworks. I very much hope that local authorities will be extremely vigorous in enforcing those penalties when operators do so.

Viscount Simon

My Lords, is my noble friend aware—I suspect that he is—that research indicates that one's attention is adversely affected by using a mobile telephone, irrespective of whether it is handheld or not, for up to 10 minutes after the conversation has concluded? I go out with various police forces on traffic patrol up to three dozen times a year. Is the Minister aware that every single officer at the sharp end wants to see specific legislation to ban the use of mobile telephones while driving?

Lord Filkin

My Lords, I am aware that such use affects the attention span of the driver. That is why the Government's position is quite clear that people should not use mobile telephones. Many other things happen within cars which also affect the attention span of drivers—and I shall not develop the point. However, as regards some such issues, one is dealing with the balance of risk.

We are aware that some European countries recently introduced mobile telephone legislation and we shall monitor the situation very carefully in order to see whether it informs us, in particular in relation to enforceability and impact.