§ 2.53 p.m.
§ The Earl of Sandwichasked Her Majesty's Government:
What they consider to be the necessary preconditions for a viable, sustainable Palestine.
§ The Minister for Trade (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government remain convinced that an independent democratic and peaceful Palestinian state should emerge as part of a negotiated settlement that guarantees peace and stability for Israel, secure within recognised borders and viewed as an equal partner in the region. The details are for agreement between the parties in permanent status negotiations.
Her Majesty's Government believe that the characteristics of such a viable Palestinian state might include, for example, a high degree of territorial contiguity, responsibility for internal security, and the development of a full range of institutions necessary for effective governance.
§ The Earl of SandwichMy Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. Does the noble Baroness agree that Israel's determination to build and expand illegal 455 settlements around East Jerusalem and the West Bank, in spite of international resolutions over many years, is now the main obstacle, both to peace and to a viable Palestinian state? Will the Government urge the United States, which has financed some of this road building and the bypasses around these settlements, to convince Israel that withdrawal is essential under the Mitchell plan, and that there are other legal means of guaranteeing Israel's security through international supervision?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, the noble Earl is right; the settlements are indeed illegal under international law. Her Majesty's Government believe that they are an obstacle to peace. As the noble Earl said, the recommendations of the Mitchell committee are that Israel should freeze all settlement activity, including what is termed "natural growth" of existing settlements.
Of course the United States policy is a matter for that country. However, it is my understanding that the United States has repeatedly called for an end to Israeli settlement activity and has also fulsomely supported the Mitchell committee's recommendations.
§ Lord MitchellMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that the fundamental precept of viability and sustainability of a Palestinian state is the absolute commitment of the Palestinian authority to fight terrorism? Does the noble Baroness agree with the words of President Bush this very weekend that there is no such thing as a good terrorist? Does she further accept that the only way that Chairman Arafat can demonstrate his commitment to fighting terrorism is not by word alone but by the specific actions that he takes against Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I agree that the Palestinian authority's commitment to fight terrorism must be matched by a consistent and sustained effort on the ground. A peaceful Palestinian state co-existing with a secure Israel, which is recognised and respected by Israel, and which offers the best prospect of a lasting peace.
As to the remarks of President Bush this weekend, of course I agree that terrorism should be condemned absolutely. The last part of my noble friend's question asked what Chairman Arafat could do in that respect. We believe that we can ask no more or less of Chairman Arafat on this point than for him to exert every possible effort and to use every possible influence that he has to combat terrorism, to end the violence and to arrest and punish the perpetrators.
§ Lord Renfrew of KaimsthornMy Lords, does the Minister agree that in the circumstances described by the noble Lord in relation to the term "terrorism" it is sometimes difficult to distinguish the recent actions of the Israeli army from those of some of the supporters of the Palestinians?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, we have spent a great deal of time in your Lordships' House trying to discuss what we mean by terrorism. Her Majesty's Government unequivocally condemn terrorism wherever it arises. Indeed, as I made clear to your Lordships' House on the previous occasion we discussed this issue, we as part of the European Union have made démarches to the Israeli Government on such matters as extra judicial killing.
§ Lord Wright of RichmondMy Lords, does the Minister agree that one important pre-condition for a viable and sustainable Palestinian state is a fairer distribution of water resources? Is the noble Baroness aware that according to World Bank statistics, 90 per cent of the water in the West Bank is used for Israel's purposes and 10 per cent is left to the Palestinians who are not allowed by the occupying power to dig their own wells?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I indeed agree that the issue of water resources is an extremely fraught one. Of course it is not the only difficult issue with which we are dealing. In respect of water resources I believe that Her Majesty's Government have made our position clear. However, many other issues concerning trade, for example, are often related to the issue of water resources and Her Majesty's Government have made clear to the Israeli Government that on that issue we believe there should be fairer treatment of those in the territory of the Palestinian authority.
§ The Lord Bishop of WakefieldMy Lords—
§ Lord Wallace of SaltaireMy Lords, can the Minister—
§ Lord Janner of BraunstoneMy Lords—
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn)My Lords, may we hear from the right reverend Prelate first and then from the Liberal Democrat?
§ The Lord Bishop of WakefieldMy Lords, thank you. Is the Minister aware that under the Israeli Government the Palestinian Christians have felt greatly persecuted? Since the conflict began with Afghanistan that Palestinian Christian group has been under increasing threat from some of the Muslim communities. Can the noble Baroness say whether the Government will use their influence in the creation of a proposed Palestinian state to ensure that the rights of the Palestinian Christian minorities are preserved and promoted?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, I am aware of the problems faced by some Palestinian Christians. I hope that the right reverend Prelate will agree that Her Majesty's Government have made a point of fostering inter-state relationships wherever there are matters of conflict. I do not want to prescribe what kind of settlement would be appropriate 457 throughout the peace talks and the final settlement discussions, but I believe that any such talks should pay proper attention to the rights of all people in Palestine, irrespective of their faith or ethnicity.
§ Lord Wallace of SaltaireMy Lords, given the importance of the trade relationship between the European Union and Israel, does the European Union intend to use its trade instrument to bring pressure to bear on the parties to move towards a settlement?
§ Baroness Symons of Vernham DeanMy Lords, it is an interesting and difficult topic. The General Affairs Council of the European Union will meet again next week on Monday, 19th November. The meeting with the Israeli authorities is due to take place on the 20th. The position of the European Union will be discussed on the 19th and I am sure that a wide range of matters will be taken up with the Israeli authorities on the 20th.