HL Deb 23 July 2001 vol 626 cc1749-50

7.36 p.m.

Lord Williams of Mostyn rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 9th July be approved [3rd Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this order gives effect to Recommendation 2 of the SSRB that there should be an increase in Lords Ministers' salaries of £4,000 in two instalments of £2,000. The order also gives effect to similar increases to the Leader of the Opposition in the Lords and the Opposition Chief Whip. I fear that this is an inevitable, if lamentable, consequence. I commend the order to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 9th July be approved [3rd Report from the Joint Committed.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his brief introduction to the order. I have only one or two points to put to him.

First, it is worth reading these documents because a little germ of information is always found. I was interested to discover that the Attorney-General is paid more than the Lord Privy Seal. Since the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal was the Attorney-General in the last Parliament, that means that he has taken a pay cut in order to become the Leader of the House. I wonder whether that is a worthwhile sacrifice—a question I put to the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. Can the noble and learned Lord explain the discrepancy, since he was the first and original holder of the post of Attorney-General in this House?

Secondly, I discovered to my cost that during the period of the dissolution, Members of the Opposition in receipt of a salary were not paid. On further research I discovered that Ministers were paid, as were the chairmen of our various committees. Can the noble and learned Lord explain the position to me? He does not need to tell me immediately because he may not have the information to hand. However, I should like to know on what legislative basis that was done.

Finally, I take it from paragraph 2(b) that the commencement date is from 1st April 2002. Does that mean that those Ministers who left office after the election will now receive their severance pay at the new rate? Furthermore, can the noble and learned Lord tell the House whether the severance period has increased from three months to six months, as I believe it should?

Lord Goodhart

My Lords, I rise to say that we have no objection to this order. No doubt if we want capable people to accept these offices, they must be paid a reasonable salary. In many cases I have to say that, even with the increases provided for by the order, the salaries they will receive are substantially lower than they would command if they were acting in professions or business outside your Lordships' House.

Earl Russell

My Lords, perhaps I may respond to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, as regards the difference between ministerial and Opposition salaries. There is always government, but in time of dissolution there is no Parliament and therefore there can be no parliamentary salaries.

Lord Williams of Mostyn

My Lords, I am most grateful for the comments of the noble Lord sitting on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench; namely, that we were grotesquely underpaid. All that I can say in response is to echo the words of the late lamented Noel Coward: I do so agree.

I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for pointing out that in my present incarnation I am distinctly worse off than I was before the election. It is always gratifying to have such points brought to one's mind. I think that it pays tribute to my continuing life of self-sacrifice in the public interest, which I shall endeavour to bear with some fortitude.

On Question, Motion agreed to.