HL Deb 13 December 2001 vol 629 cc1417-9

3.21 p.m.

Lord Astor of Hever asked Her Majesty's Government:

What criteria they will apply when deciding whether suspected terrorists can be handed over or extradited to a jurisdiction where the death penalty can be imposed.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Rooker)

My Lords, our policy is in accordance with the Sixth Protocol to the European Convention on Human Rights and with the provisions of the Extradition Act 1989. We refuse to extradite any persons to a jurisdiction where the offence for which they could be tried, or for which they have been tried, carries the death penalty, unless sufficient assurances are provided by a requesting state that the death penalty will not be imposed, or if imposed, will not be carried out.

Lord Astor of Hever

My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister why our troops can, quite rightly, hand over to the Americans bin Laden or his accomplices if captured in Afghanistan, but if captured in this country, they will not be handed over unconditionally? Our American friends find that hard to understand. Where is the logic?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, I shall not answer hypothetical questions. I refer noble Lords to the Answer I gave to the same Question on 15th November at cols. 678 and 679. I shall not have a razor blade put between myself and the Secretary of State for Defence, or anybody else. If I am really pressed I shall read into the record the same Answers as I gave on that day when I was specifically asked about the position of bin Laden if he ended up in this country as an illegal immigrant. The position has not changed since 15th November.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill

My Lords, can the Minister explain to our American friends, of whom I am one, and perhaps to Mr Ashcroft, their Attorney-General, if this is raised, that the criteria applied are those that were laid down by the European Court of Human Rights in 1989? The government of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, honourably gave effect to those criteria. Now, as a matter of European public policy, the framework decision on Eurowarrants makes sure that within Europe, at any rate, the policy of the European Convention on Human Rights will prevent anybody being extradited to face the death penalty, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment or torture. That policy is observed by the 41 member states of the Council of Europe.

Lord Rooker

My Lords, I agree with everything said by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I refer noble Lords to the original Answer I gave; that is, that our policy is in accordance with the Extradition Act 1989. I shall leave it there. I am sure that in a moment the penny will drop.

Lord Dixon-Smith

My Lords, does the Minister find, as I do, that it is at least inconsistent if not illogical that we can send our troops out to a situation where they might have to kill suspect terrorists or be killed by them, yet we are not prepared to put suspect terrorists in danger after due process of law? I find that inconsistent.

Lord Rooker

My Lords, there is nothing inconsistent as regards what happens under fire in enemy action under the rules of war as opposed to judicial execution. If the noble Lord cannot understand the difference between the two, we have a problem in debating the issue. There is a difficulty. I repeat that our extradition treaty with the United States does not cause any problems with the United States. We extradite people back to the United States even for offences which carry the death penalty there. That is done on the basis that if such persons are found guilty and the death penalty is imposed, it will not be carried out. That is a perfectly satisfactory arrangement that has worked well for years under both governments.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, does the Minister agree that perhaps the Prime Minister's statement earlier this week caused a little confusion in some minds? Does he also agree that the safest thing that Osama bin Laden can now do is to smuggle himself into this country?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, if, having put thousands of people to death he wants to save his own skin, that is absolutely right. That would show the kind of coward he is. My noble friend Lord Stoddart asked that question on 15th November during an exchange at col. 679. The position I gave then has not changed to date. That is clear. Perhaps I may add that no one, inside or outside Westminster, inside or outside the Government or the media, has questioned any of the Answers I gave on that day.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, does not the Minister realise that if a person were apprehended or convicted as a terrorist, some people would think that the best thing would be for him to be extradited to a country which carries out the death penalty as soon as possible?

Lord Rooker

My Lords, we have been concentrating on the United States. Most of our partners do not have the death penalty; the United States does. It is still in force in 38 states. That implies that there are many states where it is not in force. When explained calmly to members of the public, I believe that they understand the difference between what happens during enemy action and acts of war and our general policy of not having execution. That has been settled on free votes in this Parliament year after year, and there has been no change.