§ (".—(1) The Scottish Ministers may by order make provision for and in connection with transferring to—
- (a) the Commission, or
- (b) the Boundary Committee for Scotland,
§ (2) The provision made by order under subsection (1) as respects the distribution of functions between the Commission and the Boundary Committee for Scotland shall broadly correspond to that made by Part I of Schedule (Transfer of functions of Boundary Commissions) as respects the distribution of functions between those bodies.
§ (3) The Scottish Commission shall cease to exist at such time as the Scottish Ministers, being satisfied that the Scottish Commission have no further functions, by order direct.
§ (4) An order under subsection (1) or (3) may include provision for the transfer to the Commission—
- (a) of the staff of the Scottish Commission, and
- (b) of any property (including rights and interests of any description) and liabilities to which the Scottish Commission are entitled or subject;
§ (5) An order under subsection (3) may include provision for the abolition of any duty in compliance with which the Scottish Commission was established or constituted.
227§ (6) Section 146(5) shall apply to an order made by the Scottish Ministers under this section as it applies to an order made by the Secretary of State under this Act and the reference in that section to enactments shall include a reference to any enactment comprised in or in an instrument made under an Act of the Scottish Parliament.
§ (7) Any power of the Scottish Ministers to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of the Scottish Parliament.
§ (8) The Scottish Ministers shall reimburse the Commission for any expenditure incurred by them which is attributable to the exercise of any of the functions transferred by an order made under subsection (1).").
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 18 [Local Government Boundary Commission for Wales]:
§
Viscount Astor moved Amendment No. 55:
Page 11, line 13, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").
§ The noble Viscount said: I did not move Amendment No. 53 because I assumed that the noble Lord on the Liberal Benches would move Amendment No. 53C. I do not want to detain the Committee, but it might be helpful if I move Amendment No. 55. That would then enable us to break for dinner before we move on to Northern Ireland. If noble Lords opposite wish to start that, I suspect that the dinner break will not be for at least an hour and a half.
§ Lord BachI am extremely tempted by the noble Lord's proposition. However, sitting alongside me is the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and I do not think that he is so tempted.
§ Viscount AstorI am grateful. I am trying to be helpful to the Committee and to ensure that Ministers have a well deserved break.
Like Amendment No. 53, Amendment No. 55 seeks to leave out the word "may" and insert the word "shall". They relate to Clauses 17 and 18, and concern transfers. The Bill currently states that the Secretary of State "may" make an order in all these instances. Having made an order, the commission "shall" make arrangements.
We believe that there is a slight anomaly. We assume that it is the Government's absolute intention that the Secretary of State will make an order. Therefore, if one follows the logic of that argument, it surely must make sense that the wording should say that the Secretary of State "shall" make an order. We have debated in many Bills the words "shall" and "may". I am sure that similar arguments will arise to those we have had before.
My point is a serious one. The word "may" immediately raises questions: Is the Secretary of State going to put this off? Is he going to have a longer wait? When will this happen? Surely the word "shall" would be clearer to anybody reading the Bill. That would give a clear signal of the Government's intentions. I beg to move.
§ Lord BachAmendments Nos. 55 and 64, which are in the same group—Amendment No. 53 not having been moved—are concerned with separate provisions which provide for the transfer of functions or of 228 property, rights and liabilities to the electoral commission. In each case, the transfer is to be effected by order. If these clauses are to impose a duty to act, there would be the further question as to the time by which the duty must be exercised. That is our argument against Amendment No. 64.
It is certainly the Government's intention to exercise the order-making power in Clause 17 in order to transfer functions of the Local Government Commission for England to the electoral commission. The order-making power in Clause 21(5) is precautionary in nature. We are in discussion with the Registrar of Companies about the transfer of his functions under the Registration of Political Parties Act 1998. It remains to be seen, however, whether there is much in the way of property, rights and liabilities to be transferred to the commission. It is possible that some liabilities, for example in relation to legal proceedings, should remain with the registrar.
As far as concerns Amendment No. 55, there is a further argument. The use of "shall" in the context of Clause 18(1) would be particularly inappropriate. We do not want to go over devolution points yet again. But the position is that the National Assembly for Wales has devolved responsibility for local government electoral and administrative boundaries in Wales. The purpose of Clause 18 is to provide the National Assembly for Wales with the legal basis for transferring the functions of the Local Government Boundary Commission should it wish to do so. It is the Assembly's decision. By contrast, Amendment No. 55, if passed, would make the Assembly's decision for it.
In the light of the explanation on Amendment No. 55, I hope that the noble Viscount will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
§ Viscount AstorI am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. I understand that with the insertion of the word "shall", the Bill might empower the Secretary of State in Clause 17. However, as the Minister stated, Clause 18(1) relates to the National Assembly for Wales. It is probably not right, therefore, that the word "shall" is used because I think I am right in saying that the Bill cannot dictate to the Assembly, as the Minister stated.
I turn to Amendment No. 64. Page 13, line 1, provides:
The Secretary of State may by order make provision for the transfer to the Commission of any property".That obviously follows the previous amendment. The argument has therefore been covered by the Minister. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 55A and 55B:
Page 11, line 14, leave out ("the transfer to the Commission of any one or more") and insert ("and in connection with transferring to—
229
Page 11, line 17, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
("(2) The provision made by order under subsection (1) as respects the distribution of functions between the Commission and the Boundary Committee for Wales shall broadly correspond to that made by Part I of Schedule (Transfer of functions of Boundary Commissions) as respects the distribution of functions between those bodies.
(3) The Welsh Commission shall cease to exist at such time as the National Assembly for Wales, being satisfied that they have no further functions to perform, by order directs.").
§ On Question, amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 19 agreed to.
§ Lord BachI beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Committee stage begin again not before 8.30 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.