HL Deb 09 October 2000 vol 617 cc10-8

(".—(1) Every access authority shall, within five years after the commencement of this section prepare and publish a plan, to be known as an access land management strategy, containing—

  1. (a) the authority's assessment of the adequacy of the provision made in relation to each of the matters specified in subsection (2) and of any need for changes in that provision,
  2. (b) a statement of the action they propose to take for the management of access land in their area, and for securing that any such land is managed without detriment to that land or any person interested in that land, and
  3. (c) such other material as the Secretary of State (as respects England) or the National Assembly for Wales (as respects Wales) may direct.

(2) The matters referred to in subsection (1)(a) are—

  1. (a) fire management,
  2. (b) byelaws,
  3. (c) access points,
  4. (d) warden services,
  5. (e) regimes for closures and restrictions,
  6. (f) the statutory map of access land,
  7. (g) signs, notices and other forms of information provided in relation to access land,
  8. (h) public transport services in relation to access land,
  9. (i) any other matters that may be specified in regulations.").

The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 301 is concerned with management. There are many issues related to the right to access which are an integral component part of managing that right. Management is the key to providing access to the public which does not unduly impose on land management interests, diminish the enjoyment of access rights by the public or damage the environment, including the flora and fauna, of access land. For management of access to work effectively for all concerned it must be proactive, not reactive. It is on that basis that successful public access to the countryside can currently be found.

Within the Bill numerous obligations are placed on local authorities, but there is no provision to encourage a proactive approach to ensure that the responsibilities are regularly reviewed to determine the success of their application. This amendment seeks to include a requirement that an authority must prepare a review of the Bill's provisions and the overall management of access in its specific area. Much like the obligation in Clause 56 in Part II for the production of rights of way improvement plans, an access land management strategy (ALMS) aims to make local authorities responsible for the operation of the right of access and to check that the access available meets the expectations of land managers, users and the environment.

Access land management strategies are already carried out in national parks. National park authorities see the need for access to be managed effectively and use management plans as a tool to achieve that. All local authorities should also undertake management plans where they have access land in their locality. How else will access land be managed efficiently and effectively? ALMS would be a practical tool to parallel strategic planning and review work to be undertaken in relation to rights of way.

At this Dispatch Box I have frequently pressed the Government on management issues when speaking to various amendments to this part of the Bill. I believe that the Government have a good understanding of that. This amendment seeks to ensure that we do not end up with an excellent Bill which has the right balance but no means to guarantee that the restrictions, privileges, access or various instruments contained in the legislation are carried out. I believe that this is a sensible amendment which, if accepted by the Government, will be a valuable fallback and confidence-building measure for all concerned with access to the countryside. I beg to move.

Earl Peel

I attach a great deal of importance to the amendment. Our deliberations on the Bill so far have shown the real possibility of major practical difficulties in trying to implement the legislation. The number of amendments that we have already debated, and the occasions on which the Government must return to unresolved issues at Report stage, are testament to that fact. The mapping process will, at the very least, provide an interesting challenge to the access authorities. I believe that that would be much more straightforward if at Report stage the Government tabled an amendment similar to that moved by my noble friend Lord Caithness which placed a duty on the Countryside Agency to define moorland, heath, down and all other access areas.

My view, which I believe is shared by many other Members of the Committee, is that the access provisions are ill-considered and there remain a number of important unresolved issues. For example, will there be access points? What information will they provide? How will the general public inform themselves about the restrictions, by-laws and regulations in existence? Will the public, landowners and managers have confidence in the system? Who knows? All of those matters must be resolved when the provisions of the legislation are implemented. I should like to know just how effective the closure orders under Clauses 21 to 24 are likely to be in protecting the management interests of those who have the responsibility for looking after the land. Furthermore, under the Bill there is no duty on an access authority to employ wardens or produce by-laws. We have yet to discover how efficient and effective the closure orders will be.

Some access authorities may wish to escape with the bare minimum of responsibilities through either a lack of funds or, frankly, commitment. Consequently, owners and users, like access authorities, may be dissatisfied with the practical workings of Part I. I believe that this amendment, which would place a duty on each access authority to publish an access land management strategy, makes complete sense and should be welcomed by all interested parties. There is no doubt that the provisions of Part I will have enormous implications for many people and the land in question. Under Part II there is a requirement on local authorities to prepare rights of way improvement plans. Therefore, it is quite logical that a parallel duty should be placed on access authorities under Part I.

This Bill enters new territory and it is inevitable that there will be difficulties and teething problems. Opportunities for access authorities formally to get together and learn from their experience will be helpful. If my noble friend's amendment is accepted, it will provide a real opportunity for managers of land and those who exercise the new rights of access to express their views and determine whether the legislation works effectively. This amendment makes total sense and I sincerely hope that the Government will give it serious consideration.

Lord Williamson of Horton

At least I have come back refreshed after a weekend in the countryside. I should like to support the amendment. It is common ground that we need good information, not only about the new opportunities that are being opened up for walkers, which I support, but also about the management of the new arrangements, bearing in mind the interests of owners, tenants and other interests.

It is quite reasonable that within five years the access authorities should produce documents which set out conclusions on the adequacy of those arrangements. It is the spirit of the age that we continually have to account for everything. I do not see why the access authorities should not account for the adequacy of the arrangements in operation in their area.

Furthermore, it would be useful for the public to see those documents because they cover matters of considerable interest to the public, including, for example, public transport arrangements and other matters not referred to elsewhere in the Bill. I believe that it would be sensible to include this provision in the Bill.

Lord Bridges

I have sympathy for and understanding of the purposes which lie behind the amendment. There is one matter which I should like clarified. That is the possibility of an undesirable overlap of responsibilities already exercised by the national parks and—under another part of the Bill—those relating to areas of outstanding natural beauty. I presume the intention is that the amendment refers to access land outside those two areas. It would be helpful if that could be clarified, possibly at a later stage, with a further amendment.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer

I have some sympathy with the reasoning behind the amendment and with the point touched on by the Members of the Committee on the Conservative Benches that it is important that the public and landowners should know how the matter will be managed. However, I cannot support the amendment because I feel that it moves away from what local authorities have to do, which is produce community plans.

The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, touched on a local transport plan which would have to be tied in. The community plan would encompass the national park plans and the AONB plans. It would show how the access authorities' plans accorded with those plans. I should be very unhappy to see us adding yet another plan to the 40 statutory plans local authorities already have to produce. It would mean officers spending all their time writing plans—as the amendment says, preparing and publishing plans—and actually not doing very much, often those same officers who are supposed to be out in the countryside.

However, I would ask the Government to consider that the way an access authority's performance is measured in relation to the management of land—indeed in relation to Part II, to which we shall come—by the Audit Commission should be reviewed. I am happy for the Minister to respond at a later stage. At the moment the Audit Commission's performance indicators are very much geared to other statutory duties such as social services, education and so on. The matters covered in the Bill are new duties. These new duties will urgently need to be considered as areas equally worthy of being measured. Every authority is conscious of the fact that it needs to succeed in its performance indicator measurements. That area needs to be given sufficient weight by the Audit Commission. It would be more constructive than requiring authorities to produce yet another plan.

Lord Jopling

I hope very much that the amendment will be accepted. It is very positive and helpful. The only point I want to make is that if, as I hope, the Government are prepared to accept the amendment it may be possible to amend it at Report stage. The matters referred to in subsection (2), which follow from subsection (1)(a), miss out one particularly important point. That is with regard to the emergency services.

I know that there is reference in subsection (2)(a) to fire management. However, in a clause like this it is very important that the information should include the position of the nearest telephone. Not everyone on access land will have a mobile telephone. In the event of someone having a mobile telephone, it is very important to provide the information with regard to the number for the emergency services.

Presumably subsection (2)(a)—fire management—will include a telephone number for local fire services; for example, if someone is hurt. We discussed that last week when talking about the mountain rescue services. All these matters ought to be taken care of when producing and publishing a plan. Therefore, when people see a plan for a certain access area it should include at the first possible stage details with regard to all the emergency services so that people who read the plan before they go on the land will be able to take note of telephone numbers and the position of the nearest telephone. A good moment to start that kind of publicity would be at the time the plan is prepared and published.

3.15 p.m.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

The new clause in the amendment would place a duty on access authorities to publish "access land management strategies", setting out how they intend to manage access on land in their area, with specific reference to a number of matters. I do not deny that access authorities will play an important role in the implementation of the new statutory right. They will have powers to make by-laws, to appoint wardens and to secure and maintain means of access. But they will not have statutory involvement in a number of other matters mentioned in the amendment, such as, for example, fire management, provisions for closures and restrictions and the mapping of access land. All of these are the responsibility of the relevant authorities—the Countryside Agency, the Countryside Council for Wales and the national parks authorities rather than the local access authorities. The noble Lord, Lord Bridges, made that point. We expect them to contribute to the consultation process, but that is not their responsibility.

We share the view that access authorities will have a key role in helping to ensure that access is properly managed so that users know where they may exercise their right and what their rights actually are. That is why we have given them the various powers to make by-laws where they are made aware of particular activities which may cause problems; to appoint wardens over access land to ensure that users are aware of their rights and enforce the restrictions on the land where necessary; and to assess whether there is adequate means of access to the land, and take action where necessary.

Surely these powers are best exercised in response to individual situations and needs rather than through a statutory plan. For example, it may not be possible for an access authority to determine in advance where a means of access is likely to be needed. It will need to find out where the public are most likely to wish to go, the level of use and how they wish to get there. I suggest that that argument applies in particular to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. I do not think that we would wish emergency telephones to be set up according to some bureaucratic statutory plan, rather than according to the way that we propose it in the Bill, which is, as necessary. One cannot determine these matters in advance. They need to be targeted according to what actually happens on the ground. The same applies to by-laws and to the appointment of wardens.

We do not believe that it would be a good use of public money to require authorities to prepare access land management strategies. It is true, as the noble Earl, Lord Peel, said, that under Part II of the Bill local highway authorities are under a duty to provide rights of way improvement plans. That is because, unlike in Part I, local highway authorities have wider-ranging responsibilities in relation to rights of way. They are not shared with the countryside bodies in the same way as responsibilities under Part I.

The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, made a telling point when she referred to the number of plans and strategies which local authorities are already required to draw up. My list has 37 statutory duties. The noble Baroness's list has 40. I should be glad to know what her extra three are. Examples are the best value regime, air quality management plans, waste recycling plans, community care plans, health improvement programmes, pipeline safety plans, and so on. I am not suggesting that these duties are unnecessary, but we should think carefully before imposing further duties on local authorities, particularly ones which do not offer value for money.

We simply do not believe that it is necessary to place such a duty on access authorities. I agree that authorities will need to assess the access available in their area and ensure that they are making the best use of the powers in the Bill. But that is no more than we would expect of any local authority, all of which have a range of discretionary powers which they must exercise as they see appropriate. In this connection I respond to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, about the remit of the Audit Commission and reviews carried out by the Audit Commission. We are looking positively at that point.

We must bear in mind that the new right will be a limited one—primarily for walking. The activities which the Bill will enable will not have a significant impact on the countryside. It would not be appropriate for local authorities to have to draw up detailed plans and assessments of such a limited right. We have given the authorities powers to manage the new right and we expect them to use those powers. We do not think that access land management strategies would be appropriate.

Baroness O'Cathain

Of course we do not want to overload authorities. We are already producing far too many plans and strategies. But I believe that there is a case for accepting the amendment. Furthermore, I believe that subsection (2) should include the ambulance service, as my noble friend Lord Jopling suggested. If the amendment is not accepted, walkers and ramblers—many councillors are walkers and ramblers—will ask for a list as long as one's arm. At least the amendment would limit it, which would be eminently practicable.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

What would the list as long as the noble Baroness's arm look like? I cannot conceive of what it would look like.

Baroness O'Cathain

I can. I have just had a quick word with my noble friend Lord Peel. In the extreme case, it might include the whereabouts of the nearest tea shop or where one could get water. Some of the questions one is asked when one is out walking are quite extreme. I can assure the noble Lord that some people would want "kitchen sinks" and the lot in the list.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

That would be much more likely to happen if they went to their local authority and said, "I want this on the access land management plan". We have to get this in proportion. If one flies over the country once the provisions of the Act are fully in force, it will look the same. All we are doing is opening up land for not much more than walking purposes.

Earl Peel

The Minister is right. No one is suggesting that the Bill will have a major impact on the land itself. But he has failed to realise—the Government have failed to realise it time and again—the impact it may have on land management practices. That is the point.

Perhaps I may return to the amendment. Does the Minister envisage the possibility of some form of duty on the Countryside Agency to review after a period of time how the Act is working? That would give the agency an opportunity to discuss with access groups and owners all the management implications in order to see whether the Act is working effectively and whether ways and means of streamlining it and ironing out some of the difficulties, which are bound to arise, can be found.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

The amendment is concerned with access authorities. I have already agreed with the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, that the role of the Audit Commission is relevant. It will have a remit in relation to access land and will be carrying out reviews. That is entirely welcome. The relevant authorities—the Countryside Agency, the Countryside Council for Wales and the national park authorities—will be carrying out reviews and will cover the points of concern here.

Lord Glentoran

I thank the Minister for that explanation. I am not totally satisfied. The amendment is about ensuring that all the restrictions and all the provisions of the Bill are properly and correctly carried out. I am surprised by the Minister saying, "After all, it is only a limited right. It is not really a very big thing". It is a very big thing. It is an unrestricted right over huge acreages of ground for a good many people in a way that has never been tried before. I suggest that the Bill really is a big deal. Noble Lords on all sides of the Committee are putting a great deal of work into trying to get the Bill right. It has been said time and again that, if the right management is in place, everyone will have fun, there will be no aggro and everything will be as everyone would like it to be.

I hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, says about local authorities already being overloaded. But if they are already asked to make 40 strategic plans, is the Bill so unimportant that it is less necessary for them to take seriously a public strategy on how they wish the Bill to operate in their area?

I confess that I have little knowledge of the workings of local authorities in this country, although I have a good deal of knowledge of how they work in Northern Ireland. The Minister said that the Audit Commission will have a remit to carry out reviews. That is of some comfort. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said that other organisations have to produce strategies which will be built into the community plan. How will access to the countryside be built into the plan? Who will write or produce the strategy which the local authority will incorporate into the community plan?

Many valuable comments have been made. I have heard what the Minister has said. However, I believe that we should take the matter further at Report stage. I hope that the Government will clarify that local authorities will be required to take seriously their responsibilities in relation to the Act. We know that many good local authorities will leap to it. We also know that others may be a little slow to move.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

I certainly do not want to give any impression that we are not determined that local authorities should take their responsibilities seriously. I hope that nothing I have said has given that impression. But that does not mean that we support a plan. It would not really matter if the amendment were changed in order to remove some of its absurdities. The idea of a plan is fundamentally unacceptable.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer

I presume that the question directed to me by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, was not entirely rhetorical. Perhaps I may say simply that, because of the way local access forums have been constructed by the Bill, I believe that they will play a fundamental role in feeding into any community plan drawn up by the access authority. I hope that the mechanism will work well.

Lord Glentoran

I thank the noble Baroness for that response. However, I understand that at present there is no hardline guarantee that access authorities will be set up; any more than there is a hardline guarantee that wardens will be appointed; and any more than we have been given details of the regional production schedules for regimes of restrictions and closures. These points have not been put on to the face of the Bill.

Having heard what the Minister said, I understand the Government's determination not to have anything to do with the amendment. Furthermore, I sense that the Government feel strongly that no requirement should be put on to local authorities to produce plans. We feel the opposite. We shall return on Report with a different form of words. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

3.30 p.m.

Lord Renton moved Amendment No. 302: After Clause 38, insert the following new clause—