Military Museums (Hansard, 27 November 2000)

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)
My Lords, military museums are afforded tenure of occupation on Ministry of Defence property under a commitment first made in 1956. They should continue to be accommodated unless there are changes in deployment or estate requirements. Some have applied 1107 for security of tenure by way of a lease from the department. But a number of smaller museums, the majority of which are Army regimental and corps museums, have not made such applications. The trustees of these museums may apply to lease their accommodation, except for a very small number which occupy buildings on land known as Old Land Revenue Property, which is owned by the Crown Estate.

§ Lord Burnham
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that very full Answer. My Question was originally based on an article I read. The noble Baroness's department was kind enough to point out to me this morning that Mr Max Hastings, who wrote it, had reneged on his statement. He said that the Ministry of Defence had stated that most existing museums would be unaffected. I hear what the Minister says, but that sounds rather dangerous. I hope that she can inform the House that all existing museums will be unaffected if they so wish.

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord that complete assurance. As I indicated in my initial Answer, there may be changes to regimental accommodation because of changes in deployment or in estate requirements. Where there are such changes, as there have been on one or two occasions, sometimes the museum is able to follow its regiment elsewhere.
I am interested that the noble Lord believed every word of the article. As I recall, it started off by saying that Malcolm Rifkind was a disastrous Defence Secretary and Michael Portillo only marginally less so. The author did not renege on those points.

§ Viscount Falkland
My Lords, based on the exchange that has taken place, can I take it that there is some reason for regimental and other museums to be anxious about the future because their tenure is not secure in the long term? Has there been any contact between the noble Baroness's department and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, and also with the area museums councils, which are particularly concerned with these issues? Not all regiments which have connections with areas and regions and which have stories and treasures relating to those regions can make the arrangements that have been made, for example, by the King's Liverpool Regiment, which is now under the umbrella of the National Museums and Galleries on Merseyside, and the 60th in Hampshire. Can the Minister offer some word of comfort? Is there a dialogue between her department and other agencies, so that we do not lose valuable treasures?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, there are some 68 regimental and corps museums throughout the country. In 1998, the executive committee of the Army Board agreed a policy which allows the trustees of museums on the MoD estate to lease their museum accommodation for up to 50 years on sites where the MoD is prepared to agree to such a lease being taken out. That is very different from the 1108 DCMS position. There is contact between all departments on matters of mutual concern, but in this case the leases are a matter for the MoD. As I explained to the noble Lord, Lord Burnham, we are not able to give the absolute assurance he would like. Some 14 museums have currently applied for leases; I believe that two have signed up and the remainder are being considered.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, in Scotland, museums are devolved to the Scots Parliament but defence, of course, is not. Is the noble Baroness able to give any assurance or information regarding the important military museum at Edinburgh Castle?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I shall write to the noble Baroness with any details that I manage to get together about the museum at Edinburgh Castle. However, the MoD estate will remain a matter for the Ministry of Defence. Any museum which is currently on Ministry of Defence land will be affected in the way I have described. There are three categories: a museum may have tenure of occupation under the commitment made in 1956; it may secure a lease under the 1998 Army Board requirements; or it will not be able to do so because it is on Crown property.

§ Lord Haskel
My Lords, are there any more nuggets of wisdom in the article that was drawn to our attention by the noble Lord, Lord Burnham?

§ Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, like a good deal of what Mr Max Hastings has written recently, it was very interesting indeed and I can recommend it. It was written on 28th October, and Mr Hastings apologised to the MoD on 25th November for getting the matter wrong.