Lords Sitting of 16 May 2000

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Bristol.

Lord Hunt of Chesterton
Julian Charles Roland Hunt, CB, having been created Baron Hunt of Chesterton, of Chesterton in the County of Cambridgeshire, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Baroness David and the Baroness Jay of Paddington.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
David Trevor Shutt, OBE, having been created Baron Shutt of Greetland, of Greetland and Stainland in the County of West Yorkshire, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Smith of Clifton and the Baroness Harris of Richmond, and made the solemn Affirmation.

Football: Free Movement of Labour
2.48 p.m.
Lord Faulkner of Worcesterasked Her Majesty's Government:
What support they are giving to the efforts of the European football bodies to persuade the European Union institutions to exempt sport from the free movement of labour provisions of the Treaty of Rome.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, a European Union working group has been constituted to consider the case for exempting sport from the free movement of labour provisions of the Treaty of Rome. The group will also consider the effects of the Busman ruling on sport within the European economic area. The Government are presently consulting a wide range of UK sports bodies. The replies to that consultation will inform our discussions with the working group.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister very much for that Answer. However, given that the chances of securing a special protocol for sport exempting it from the freedom of movement provisions of the treaty seem to be somewhat remote, will my noble friend look kindly at other measures that could tackle some of the main problems facing our domestic game, the most important of which is the ever-widening gap between the rich and the poor? Further, does my noble friend agree that proposals from the British football authorities to limit the number of players from outside the European economic area playing for any one team are certainly worth supporting? In that context, will
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the Government look rather more critically at the applications for work permits from players outside the EEA, in view of the very strong evidence that attempts by unscrupulous agents to exploit the situation are damaging the prospects for young players trying to make a name for themselves and, indeed, are affecting the viability of the England national team?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I have to admit that my noble friend has a point about the difficulty of obtaining an additional protocol to the Treaty of Rome. He is also right in thinking that the employment in this country of players from outside the EEA is not affected by the Treaty of Rome and that, therefore, from a European point of view, there is no reason why there should not be the kind of provision to which he referred.
As to the view that the Department for Education and Employment might take, I believe that the Minister concerned forms her views on advice as to what is proper and legal. I am sure that she will take into account the views of my noble friend.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, is it not the case that foreign football players like Zola, Vialli, Leboeuf and Overmars have not only entertained millions of people but also contributed to raising the standard of the game in this country? Indeed, by their example, they have been an inspiration to tens of thousands of young people. Surely we can no more resist this trend than we can resist restaurants run by Marco Pierre White, or executives from Commerzbank in the City of London? Will the Government please continue to resist the dark forces of conservatism and reject this backward-looking, nationalistic, insular, xenophobic and thoroughly outdated approach?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, if I say things like that from this Dispatch Box I get torn apart by the Eurosceptics—and that is all I am allowed to say in that respect. As I understand it, Marco Pierre White comes from Yorkshire. Therefore, I do not think that he is a particularly good example to put forward. However, in essence, I agree with much of what the noble Lord said. It is true that the free movement of labour is an important provision of the Treaty of Rome: it widens our horizons in football, in cooking and, indeed, in many other areas. It would be a sad day if we were to have too many exemptions from it.
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister clearly confirm that it is undesirable to seek this exemption from the provisions of the Treaty of Rome and that the problems to which my noble friend referred earlier largely stem from the arrogance of UEFA? If the latter had been prepared to hold sensible discussions, there need never have been a case at the European Court of Justice nor, indeed, a Bosnian ruling.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, from this Dispatch Box I am not in any position to attribute

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blame for the Bosman case being brought, any more than I am in a position to comment on the legality of the matter. Certainly, the football organisations in this country have expressed some concerns about the difficulty experienced by young footballers of UK origin in finding places in UK teams because of the number of foreign footballers who come into the game. Some protection is provided for those players under the age of 24, which is, perhaps, the right way forward. However, I have not said that the Government will take action; I simply said that we will listen to what football organisations in this country have to say before deciding what to do.
Lord Addington: My Lords, given the vast amounts of money that are generated by the football entertainment industry, does not the Minister agree that we should encourage the football industry to pump as much money as possible into the development of talent in this country? If it does not do that, we have only ourselves to blame if we do not produce players of a sufficiently high quality and then have to buy them in from other countries.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, it is certainly true that the football organisations undertake to devote only 5 per cent of their earnings from broadcasting to the wider benefit of the sport. That contrasts badly with the position vis-à-vis cricket, and particularly tennis where all of the surpluses from Wimbledon are ploughed into the Lawn Tennis Association. However, this is not a matter on which the Government can lay down laws. Football is not a nationalised industry.
Lord Hoyle: My Lords, knowing my noble friend's keen interest in sport, I am sure that he will reflect on the comments of the progressive forces in the House and not just on those made by noble Lords who are pro-European on occasion and anti-European on all other occasions. I know that my noble friend agrees that a problem arises when some Premier League sides field 11 foreign players and others field seven. Even some First Division teams field seven foreign players. That restricts the number of English players at top level. Will my noble friend treat this as a matter of urgency and see what can be done about this grave situation?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, certainly we are not delaying on this matter. We are listening to the views of football organisations and UK sports bodies on the proposal to exempt sport from the free movement of labour provisions. We shall not delay our consideration of that. My understanding is that there is no formal proposal on the table and that the French Minister of Sport proposes to take the matter forward during the French presidency. No doubt we shall be asked for our views in due course. At the moment, all we have had is a questionnaire from the French Embassy, to which we have responded.
Lord Luke: My Lords, given the views that the noble Lord has already expressed, does he agree with me that
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the notion that the EU Commission, or any derogated power, could usefully intervene in what is essentially a matter for football authorities is manifestly absurd?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I do not know that the European Commission proposes to intervene. I have already said that my view is that football is not a nationalised industry and that the Government should show restraint in seeking to intervene in the way football authorities manage their business.

State Pensions
2.57 p.m.
Lord Islwyn Lord Islwyn asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they propose to review the level of state pensions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Social Security (Baroness Hollis of Heigham): My Lords, we shall next be reviewing the level of benefits, including the state retirement pension, in the autumn to take effect from April 2001. Based on the forecast rate of inflation the basic pension will rise by about £2 a week for a single pensioner and by at least £3 a week for a pensioner couple.
Lord Islwyn: My Lords, I remind the Minister that in 1980 the then Conservative government did away with the earnings rule as a method of assessing increases in state pensions. That proved a severe blow to pensioners. For instance, up to the year 1999–2000 a single pensioner would have lost £28.30 on the basic pension and a married couple £42.60. Is it not time that we gave back a bit of dignity to our pensioners? Does my noble friend appreciate that that will not be achieved by means-tested benefits or a measly 75p?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, as my noble friend and noble Lords will know well, the difficulty with the earnings link is that the provision would go to everyone. The Government face the following choice: were the earnings link to be restored, a pensioner couple over 75 would receive about £5 extra a week; if, however, we targeted help through the minimum income guarantee—which is what we are doing—a poorer pensioner couple over 75 would receive £18 a week. That is the choice: £5 for all couples over 75 or £18 for the poorest. Given my beliefs and commitments, I know which measure is most necessary to address the poverty of our older people.
Lord Marsh: My Lords, does the Minister agree that we are dodging the issue? If one wants to consider the poorest people, the interesting figure is the cost of providing state pensions for the higher rate taxpayers—the better off in this country—which is something in the region of £7 billion per year. Meanwhile, we have a situation where the state pension for non-taxpayers is clearly inadequate on any

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basis. Is it not time that we looked at this fundamental problem, which has existed under both parties for a long time?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I believe that the implication of the noble Lord's question is that state pensions should be means tested along with MIG. That is not the position of the Government. We are very clear that the state pension should remain a universal pension and a building block for the prosperity of our older people.
Lord Goodhart: My Lords, with the benefit of hindsight, does the noble Baroness agree that, rather than providing a £50 addition to the fuel allowance for all pensioners, it would have been wiser to increase the basic pension by, let us say, £1.25 a week beyond the £75 provided last October?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, it is certainly the case that the winter fuel payment goes to all pensioner households. This autumn it will average £150 year; £3 a week. I am sure your Lordships will accept that the reason the Chancellor went for, so to speak, a hypothecated sum associated with winter fuel is that we know that pensioners need more heat; we know that they spend more time in their homes; we know that their homes are more poorly insulated; and the noble Lord will know from the questions put to me by his noble friend Lord Russell that there are some 30,000 additional winter deaths of pensioners due to hypothermia over the course of the winter. For those under 65, there are 8,000 additional deaths. So pensioners need extra help with their heating. It seems appropriate to target the money in this way, given what we know about pensioner hypothermia.
Baroness Castle of Blackburn: Will the Government give an undertaking that there will be no further cuts in the employers' contribution to the National Insurance Fund until the basic state pension has been brought up to at least the level of the minimum income guarantee?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: No, my Lords.
Lord Morris of Manchester: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us much appreciate her constant efforts to explain the Government's social policy and to keep us fully informed of its cost and other implications? But, looking beyond Parliament to the reactions of pensioners outside, will she, as opportunity arises, remind her colleagues more directly responsible for deciding the Government's priorities of the instructive subtlety of Oscar Wilde's self-mockery after the first night of one of his plays when he said:
"My play was a great success but the audience a failure"?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I accept the reproach of my noble friend that the Government so far have not been able successfully to persuade pensioners of the purpose and effectiveness of the Government's strategy. We know that, as a result of
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the increase in winter fuel allowance, pensioner families will be receiving an extra £3 a week for those over 75 and an extra £2 a week for their television licences. That £5 is equivalent to the earnings link rise. In addition, the poorest pensioners will receive another £10 to £20 on top. We have not only a good story to tell but a decent and honourable one, which mixes universal and targeted benefits in ways that address real need. I accept the reproach of my noble friend that, if we fail to persuade pensioners of that. we must make sure that our story is communicated more accurately and effectively.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is there any truth in the rumours being spun in the newspapers recently that Gordon Brown now believes that it was a mistake to increase the winter payment and to introduce free television licences and so on, and that it would have been far better to increase the weekly pension? Is he going to change his mind? Is he going to go for an increase in the weekly pension and abolish these one off payments?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, obviously the noble Lord knows more about the Chancellor's state of mind than I do. Certainly I have no reason either to challenge or accept his assertions today. The Chancellor will determine what he proposes to do in the pre-Budget statement in the autumn.

Cyprus
3.4 p.m.
Lord Burnham Lord Burnham asked Her Majesty's Government:
What talks have been held with the Cypriot Government with regard to the withdrawal of British sovereign base areas in Cyprus.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, there have been no talks between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Republic of Cyprus with regard to the withdrawal of British sovereign base areas in Cyprus, nor do we have any intention to hold such talks. The sovereign base areas are British sovereign territory, as recognised by the 1960 Treaty of Establishment of the Republic of Cyprus between the United Kingdom, Greece, Turkey and the Republic of Cyprus.
Lord Burnham: My Lords, I am very glad to hear the Minister's reply because there have been strong rumours that talks have taken place. Can the noble Baroness confirm unequivocally—I believe that she will have no difficulty in so doing—the importance of the sovereign base areas to all British interests in the Near and Middle East?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am happy to confirm what the noble Lord has said. As the noble Lord knows, the SBAs are military bases. They remain

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key, strategic assets in a troubled region; their logistic benefit as a forward mounting base was demonstrated during the Gulf War; and they provide valuable training facilities. I am happy to confirm everything that the noble Lord said.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, can the Minister explain how Cypriot negotiations for membership of the European Union fit in with the continuing use of the sovereign bases? If Cyprus is to join the European Union among the first group—which will require negotiations also with Turkey—will that in any way alter the status of those bases? Or is that the subject of an entirely different set of discussions?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, as the noble Lord said, it is an entirely different set of discussions. None of the countries has raised the issue of our bases; they remain British territory. They do not in any way impinge on the negotiations.

Disability Information Trust
3.6 p.m.
Lord Walton of Detchant Lord Walton of Detchant asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will reconsider the decision of the Department of Health to withdraw funding from the Disability Information Trust.
Lord Burlison: My Lords, each year the Department of Health makes discretionary grants to support activities to help people with physical disabilities and sensory impairments, which this year totalled £2 million. Voluntary organisations submit applications, which are considered on merit as funds are limited. The Disability Information Trust has received grants for many years. This year the trust submitted three project applications: one, jointly with the Disabled Living Foundation, attracted funding of £20,000; the other two were unsuccessful.
Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that somewhat disappointing reply. I must declare an interest: until two years ago I was chairman of this trust based at the Mary Marlborough Lodge in Oxford. Does the Minister accept that this charity has for many years, with core funding from the Department of Health, produced invaluable publications which have been widely commended by disabled people and by those who care for them? Does he further accept that the withdrawal of core funding of some £80,000 will inevitably result in the winding-up of this trust, which provides a valuable service, and in rendering redundant its three dedicated staff?
Lord Burlison: My Lords, I acknowledge the role played by the noble Lord, Lord Walton, in the trust and the value that the department places on its work in the past. The formula for reducing the payment on a tapering basis over the past three years was decided in 1996. This year the applications were rejected, generally, because of the high level of demand on our cash-limited funds and because there are several existing Section 64 grants to organisations which provide information about disability equipment. I agree with the noble Lord that the publications from the trust have been informative and well appreciated. However, other organisations have made similar applications to those of the trust.
Lord Ashley of Stoke: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that that was an incredible response? Is he aware that, in less than two hours' time, the Audit Commission is coming to the All-Party Disablement Group to explain the report on the disastrous state of equipment for disabled people in Britain? The Disability Information Trust reports on disability equipment.
This is the very last time that we should be cutting finance for trusts of this kind. With the development of the Disability Discrimination Act, the implementation of that Act and the complexity of the law which disabled people and the public need to understand, the Government should be increasing information about disability rather than reducing it. Will the Government think again?
Lord Burlison: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that comment and I am well aware, as are noble Lords in the Chamber today, how concerned he is about the issue of contributions to the disabled. The Audit Commission report's findings confirm that these services are critically important to disabled and older people. We agree that there needs to be improvement and there also needs to be a higher profile.
Lord Addington: My Lords, the noble Lord has already referred to the Audit Commission's rather damning report referring to wasted money and lack of management structures. In the light of that, can the noble Lord assure us that more funding will be given to other organisations which are covering the work done by the trust and that, if they are not, they will ensure that the trust receives more fundings? There is quite clearly an absolute lack of proper information here and most disability organisations spend most of their time giving out information.
Lord Burlison: My Lords, the noble Lord refers to the Audit Commission report. I can say that the Government are already taking a wide range of actions to increase standards as a result of that report. Extra money is available through specific fundings such as partnerships and prevention initiatives. We recently announced a £4 million investment in 2001–02 to modernise hearing aids. We funded the Disabled Living Centres Council to produce good practice guidance on provision of community equipment

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services. We have distributed the guidance widely in the National Health Service and social services. The Government's record in this area is very good. Indeed, by the end of their term of office they will have proved that they have successfully aided the position of those who unfortunately are in disablement positions.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, irrespective of the value of this charity, of which I am well aware, does the Minister agree with me that it is one thing for government departments to give project grants for individual items that charities undertake and it is quite another thing for them to give core grants to continue their operations in a general way, employing staff and such like? In those situations, does not the Minister agree that the charity in fact ceases to be a charity and becomes an organ of the state?
Lord Burlison: My Lords, I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Walton, would want me to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, on that issue but I agree with the general thrust of what he had to say. At the time of the Disablement Information Trust becoming a charity in 1991 less work was being done in the field of information about disability and disability equipment. In recent years more organisations have become active in this area. All applications from voluntary organisations wishing to further this work must be considered on equal merits. Unfortunately, that is where the Disability Information Trust falls at the moment.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, the Minister has frequently used the word "we" when talking about the allocation of grants. Could he tell us who "we" are?
Lord Burlison: My Lords, I thank the noble Countess for correcting me in that area. I can only say that my explanation of "we" is that it is the Government and the Department of Health on this occasion.
Earl Howe: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the service provided by the Disability Information Trust is not commercially economic—not remotely so—and that it must depend on grant funding of some nature if it is to survive? Does he not consider that this is a worthy use for taxpayers' money and will he not undertake today to reconsider his department's decision?
Lord Burlison: My Lords, the noble Earl refers to the Disability Information Trust surviving only if it has core funding. The decision to taper off core funding was made in 1996 under the then Secretary of State and we are now coming to a point where the core funding has indeed tapered off. It is necessary for the Disability Information Trust to consider its future which lies either on the basis of being able to apply successfully in the future for funding or, perhaps, consider other alternatives such as a merger, which might be a possibility for the future.

Business
3.16 p.m.
Lord Carter: My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m., my noble friend Lady Symons will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement which is being made in another place on defence procurement. If the Report stage of the Electronic Communications Bill proceeds beyond 3.30 p.m., the Statement will be taken after conclusion of that Report stage. If the Report stage ends before 3.30 p.m., the Statement will be taken after the two Northern Ireland orders.

Business of the House: Debate, 17th May
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Jay of Paddington): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the debate on the Motion in the name of the Lord Tebbit set down for tomorrow shall be limited to five hours.—(Baroness Jay of Paddington.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Business of the House: Standing Order 72
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order 72 (Affirmative Instruments) be dispensed with to enable the Motions to approve the draft Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 and the draft Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) (No. 2) Order 2000 to be taken today, notwithstanding that no report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments on the draft orders has been laid before the House.—(Baroness Jay of Paddington.)
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, it is not unusual for the Leader of the House to seek to move the Motion temporarily suspending Standing Order 72. However, this is normally done in emergency situations or where matters are evolving very, very quickly. One can well understand why the Government wish to proceed with the draft Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) (No. 2) Order for that very purpose. However, that cannot be so of the flags order. The flags order, temporarily anyway, transfers to the Secretary of State what is a transferred matter: the control of the flying of flags, designs and so forth. I ask the noble Baroness to explain to me why she is asking us to abandon Standing Order 72 for the purpose of that order.
Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding the House that these matters, particularly those relating to Northern Ireland, have been taken in this form and that the House has agreed to this procedure. On the

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question of the two orders before the House, my understanding is that both are regarded as equally important and that both have to go to meetings of the Privy Council tomorrow. It was therefore thought relevant that this procedure should be adopted and it has been agreed by the usual channels.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Electronic Communications Bill
3.18 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 2 [Arrangements for the grant of approvals]:
[Amendments Nos. I and 2 not moved.]
Clause 5 [Regulations under Part I]:
Lord McIntosh of Haringey Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 6, line 3, at end insert—
("( ) Before making any regulations by virtue of section 2(3)(a) or (b) the Secretary of State shall consult—

(a) such persons appearing to him to be likely to be affected by those regulations, and

(b) such persons appearing to him to be representative of persons likely to be so affected,

as he thinks fit.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 3 stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Sainsbury of Turville. I should explain that my noble friend apologises to the House for his absence, but he is in Japan for the whole of this week on, needless to say, government business.
Before turning to Amendment No. 3, I should like briefly to say a few words on the important topic of data protection in connection with Clause 4 of the Bill. During the discussion in Grand Committee, my noble friend Lord Sainsbury noted that there was a somewhat complex interaction between the Data Protection Act 1998 and this legislation. He promised the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, who had raised the subject with him, to say a few words at Report stage about this interaction.
Clause 4 concerns regulatory information obtained for the purposes of Part I of the Bill. One of the purposes for which this information may be disclosed is in connection with criminal proceedings. But in deciding whether to make such a disclosure, the Secretary of State would have to take into account whether that disclosure is consistent with the Data Protection Act. So there is no conflict between the two pieces of legislation.
To be precise, information in this case comes into the possession of the Secretary of State through the powers invested in him in Part I of the Bill. The information, from those bodies seeking "approval" under Part I, may be commercially confidential or affect people's privacy, so it is important to define precisely the purposes for which the information can be disclosed. The clause thus makes it an offence to disclose information obtained under Part I of the Bill
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unless it is for the purposes spelled out in the clause, or the data owner has given his consent to its disclosure. There are precedents for such disclosure provisions, including legislation on competition, utility regulation and financial services.
Turning to the Data Protection Act 1998, in relation to Clause 4, perhaps I should start by noting that the Act does not, in the most part, lay down cast-iron rules on the circumstances under which information might be disclosed. Instead it lays out a framework under which those holding information can judge the extent to which it can be disclosed and to whom. This, in turn, will depend on the nature of the information—what it might identify about the person or body concerned—on what basis it was obtained and the purposes for which disclosure is to be made. A further consideration would, of course, be whether the subject of the information had expressly consented to the information being made available to other than the data holder.
In turning to Clause 4 in this context, the important point to make is that it does not mandate the Secretary of State, or anyone else, to disclose any information at all. Instead, in subsection (2), it limits the purposes for which information can be disclosed if the Secretary of State so decides. And in deciding whether information should be disclosed, the Secretary of State has to be mindful of the Data Protection Act. In other words, in each circumstance where data were to be disclosed, say, for example, in connection with the investigation of a criminal offence under subsection (2)(c), the Secretary of State would need to be satisfied that such disclosure was compatible with the Act and the data protection principles it outlines. This, as I said, would, inter alia, depend on the exact purpose of the disclosure, the nature of the information and what the data subject had been told about such potential disclosure when the information was submitted.
Such decisions, which the Secretary of State is obliged to make in each case of potential disclosure, are not uncommon. They occur with respect to other legislation and are the basis on which the Data Protection Act has been drafted. Therefore, I am pleased to be able to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, and others, that, for the reasons I have outlined, Clause 4 is consistent with the Data Protection Act, and indeed strengthens, rather than weakens, the protection given to information submitted by those seeking approval under Part I of the Bill.
I turn to Amendment No. 3. I hope that noble Lords will welcome this amendment. It merely reflects a commitment made by my noble friend Lord Sainsbury in Grand Committee to write on the face of the Bill our decision to consult on the approvals criteria. I beg to move.
Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his further clarification regarding consistency with the Data Protection Act in relation to Clause 4. I thank the noble Lord for his explanation of Amendment No. 3 and confirm our support, as clearly stated during our debate in Grand

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Committee, for the need for consultation on a broad scale. As I stated in Grand Committee, the credibility of any regulatory scheme depends upon the degree of respect that it has among the major practitioners and consumers in that industry. We are concerned here with a new, nascent industry and it is therefore crucial that the Government listen to and respect those involved with its evolution to ensure that its development will not be compromised or impeded in any way by unnecessary or burdensome regulation.
Lord Razzall: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the concern I raised on the Data Protection Act and, in particular, for his detailed statement which, when set out in Hansard, will be very useful for future interpretation of the Bill.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, perhaps I may raise one or two questions on the wording of the amendment. I am concerned that the word "shall" in conjunction with paragraph (a) means that the Secretary of State is obliged to consult everyone who might be affected by those regulations, which is likely to be quite a large number of people. That is particularly so when it is taken with the word "and" at the end of paragraph (a). He not only has to consult those people but also people appearing to him to be representative of them. I am concerned that there is not the usual combination of "may" and "or", which are the words I would have expected there, and that the drafting will leave the Secretary of State with a very large task on his hands and one on which he may well be challenged on suspicion of incompleteness.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, and the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, for their support, both for the amendment and for the statement which I was able to make about the Data Protection Act. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his tender concern for the sensibilities and duties of the Secretary of State. If there were the kind of challenge to which he referred, the Secretary of State could respond by saying, in terms of the final three words of the amendment, that he did not think fit to go any further in the consultation than he had done. I think that is a let out. It is an interesting point. We frequently use "shall" and "and" where some people think that we should use "may" and "or"; and more frequently the other way round.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 8 [Power to modify legislation]:
Lord Lucas Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 9, line 15, at end insert—
("( ) The Secretary of State shall maintain at a specified office and a specified site on the internet a list of all orders made under this section.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to continue a discussion which we had at the Committee stage concerning all the regulations that are to be made under Clause 8. They will be many and various and will be made at different times, by different departments, on different bases and will
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concern different problems. Over the course of time it will be difficult for anyone wishing to use electronic signatures to know quite where the legislation is as regards their acceptability.
In Committee we discussed various ways in which this issue might be addressed. Those were not acceptable. This amendment is an attempt to look at the problem in a different way and to make sure that the information and the legislation on the use of electronic signatures are easily and consistently obtainable by anyone needing to know it. I beg to move.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for giving me the opportunity to explain the Government's plans for publicising the use of Clause 8.
First, I remind the House that my honourable friend Patricia Hewitt has deposited in the House Library a memorandum, prepared by the Cabinet Office's Central IT Unit, giving more detail—indeed, a great deal more detail—on how we will use this power. The Cabinet Office already publishes six-monthly reports, not only to Parliament but also on the web, on our progress towards information age government. That report is likely to be the appropriate vehicle for reporting on progress in using Clause 8 and, together with individual departments' targeted publicity on legislative changes, would achieve the objective of the noble Lord's amendment.
The Government have already announced their intention to use Clause 8 to make changes to the Companies Act and to facilitate electronic conveyancing. We will shortly be publishing further details on our priorities for using Clause 8.I should add that whether or not Clause 8 has been used in a particular area will not be the only indication of whether electronic means are permitted. Where the only requirement is for a "signature", Clause 7, which will come into force two months after Royal Assent, will put it beyond doubt that electronic signatures are admissible. In some cases, existing legislation may already allow electronic means. Alternatively, the use of electronic means may be authorised or facilitated by new primary legislation or by secondary legislation made under powers conferred by existing primary legislation.
Although Clause 8 can apply to future legislation, made after this Bill becomes law, I expect that future legislation will often provide for electronic means. So the important thing will be for people to check an up-to-date copy of the relevant legislation, possibly as amended by what will be the Electronic Communications Act, rather than to know whether or not Clause 8 has been applied in a particular case.
In any case, secondary legislation is already available on a website maintained by Her Majesty's Stationery Office (www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk) which enables details of any future orders made under Clause 8 to be readily found. I understand that this has been checked within the past 24 hours and that it is necessary only to access that website and, to use the

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"natural language" search so as to find, for example, statutory instruments made under Section 8 of what will be the Electronic Communications Act 2000. I hope that this clarification will persuade the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
3.30 p.m.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I preferred my own simpler and more straightforward way of going about this; nevertheless I shall give in on the argument and accept that the Government will have their way. I hope that in this matter electronic government is rather more effective than it has been in my request for responses to my Written Questions by e-mail. I still cannot consistently obtain them in that form some three years after making my initial request.
Although I share the Minister's hopes that this will form an effective part of electronic government, we shall have to wait and see. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Lucas Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 5:
After Clause 8, insert the following new clause—
VALIDATION OF ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE
(" .An order under section 8 may not require that an electronic signature may only be validated by a cryptography service provider registered under the provisions of Part I of this Act; nor may any government department or agency make any such stipulation in any contract or document.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I had intended to speak to this amendment with Amendment No. 2, which failed to appear. To an extent both amendments address the same question.
The Minister said in Committee that the Government have no intention of licensing, approving or in any way signing up to other countries' systems for registration. However, the reality is that other countries, in particular the United States, will put in place their own forms of registration. If we do not accept those forms, we shall force companies to register under every system in the world, including ours, in order to be on side of the domestic legislation.
The Government will need to take decisions as to which forms of overseas registration they will accept for the purposes of regulations made under the provisions of Clause 8. When they have done that, they should not then declare that only UK forms of registration are acceptable under particular circumstances set out in UK legislation. We should aim for as simple and usable a world-wide system of registration as we can achieve. The Government will need to participate in that. I hope that the Minister will confirm that the Government have had further thoughts on the matter. I beg to move.
Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, I rise in support of my noble friend Lord Lucas to say only that this matter was discussed at great length in Committee. I feel that it is important that the Minister should clarify what will happen when companies wish to register to
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set up and do business in this country. Will they be burdened with the extra costs and time needed to reregister each time they establish operations in the United Kingdom? Without clarification on this point, we shall put in place a hindrance as regards the development of e-commerce. That would go against the Government's declaration that the UK is the best place in the world as regards the promotion of e-commerce.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am in some difficulty because, in referring back to Amendment No. 2, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, neglected to speak to his Amendment No. 5. For that reason, I shall need to return to briefing notes on Amendment No. 2 which I had already discarded when it was not moved. I am, however, happy to do that. But before I do so, perhaps I may say a few words about the question of whether Clause 7 is too restrictive, which was debated at some length in Grand Committee. I should like to make some general remarks about how the Bill deals with electronic signatures.
Various organisations have asked the Government to consider whether Clause 7 is drafted too restrictively and could have the effect of excluding certain certificates and certain kinds of signature from admissibility. The first point to make—this is relevant to both Amendments Nos. 2 and 5—is that Clause 7 is not intended to prevent anything being admissible in evidence. In the Government's view, it does not have that effect.
The Government's intention is that the clause should apply to a wide category of electronic things so that the courts are able to receive evidence of them and give that evidence the weight it should properly bear. The clause states what is meant by an electronic signature and its certification. Each of these terms is given a pretty wide meaning. The meaning given to the term "electronic signature" is along the same lines as that given in the European Community's Electronic Signatures Directive; it is not identical, but the Bill's definition is, if anything, wider.
The meaning given for "certify" and, by implication, "certification" is wider than is the definition of "certificate" in the directive. Noble Lords will be aware that Clause 7(3) has already been amended in another place to widen the concept of certification in the Bill. In particular, a certificate does not have to be seen in isolation. In considering whether the subject matter of a certificate is a valid means of establishing authenticity or integrity—for example, when a witness is required to confirm an electronic signature—other factors may be considered as well.
The Government have been asked whether the only certificates which are admissible are those which say, for example, "I confirm that this signature belongs to Andrew McIntosh", or "I confirm that this means of producing signatures is a valid means of establishing the authenticity of the communication". The answer is "No". Subsection (3) of Clause 7 is so drafted that it makes admissible a statement which needs to be added to other evidence to establish authenticity or integrity. For example, the signature service provider might

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make a general statement in his literature that certificates bearing his logo were a valid means of establishing authenticity.
In drafting Clause 7, the Government have aimed at being as inclusive as possible. We have not invented the terms "electronic signature" or "certification"; these terms were already in use within the industry. The Government's approach has been to avoid focusing too much on the labels "signature" or "certificate". It is immaterial what the parties call the thing what is important is to look at the function it performs. The functions described in Clause 7 are very wide indeed.
Perhaps I may now return to the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, in relation to Amendment No. 2, which states:
"The Secretary of State may make provision for the recognition of approvals granted under compatible registration procedures in other jurisdictions where he has agreed to recognise such procedures".
The point that we seek to make here is that we do not think that, at this stage, bilateral recognition is the right way to move forward. Clearly, advances in electronic signatures and certification are taking place all over the world. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, mentioned the United States, but we must also consider the European Union and many other regions which are advancing in this area—although we rather think that we are ahead of the game.
Article 7 of the EU directive contemplates three ways in which the certificates from outside the Union may he recognised. Perhaps I may take certificates from outside the Union as exemplars of the international trade consequences of what we are discussing. The first is by a provider in a third country being accredited by a scheme in a member state. The second is by an EU provider guaranteeing the quality of the certificate from a third country provider. The third is through bilateral or EU-level arrangements with third countries. It is the third, the bilateral proposal that was made in Amendment No. 2.
We do not believe that the bilateral approach will be the most common route. We believe that the first and second routes will be the most common, and that this is a market where industry and international standards bodies are increasingly driving the process. There was a debate about UNCITRAL in Grand Committee.
Overseas providers can choose whether or not to seek UK approval. There is nothing to stop them doing so if they believe that UK approval will give them higher status in the market-place. Equally, if they believe that overseas approval gives them the status that they need, there is nothing to stop them trading in the U K on that basis. Since overseas providers will have a choice, we are not imposing a burden on them or on us. We are not requiring anyone to go in for approval procedures which are in advance of their particular needs. What we are doing is providing the basic requirement of all of these provisions; namely, that in law there is a possibility of the recognition, if the courts agree it, of an electronic signature and certification.
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This is an occasion where I believe that we are giving the lead in encouraging the market for electronic communications to grow without being over-prescriptive. I fear that the amendments would indeed be over-prescriptive.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation, which I shall read with interest. For the present, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave withdrawn.

Defence Procurement
3.41 p.m.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement on defence procurement that has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The Statement is as follows:
"With permission, Madam Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on two significant defence procurement decisions. I would like to announce our decision on a new beyond visual range air-to-air missile to arm the Eurofighter, and on delivering, the major enhancements to our strategic airlift capability promised in the Strategic Defence Review
"This Government are committed to the modernisation of our Armed Forces. We are determined to deliver improvements in defence capability, to underpin long-term security and to ensure that Britain can act as a real force for good in the world. Our Armed Forces deserve the best equipment. We are committed to ensuring that they have the best equipment. But we are also committed to doing this in a way which is cost-effective and the best value for taxpayers' money. Smart procurement means making every pound count.
"We are also aware of the wider context. The procurement package we have selected is clear evidence for our partners on both sides of the Atlantic of our strong commitment to enhance European defence capabilities. NATO's effectiveness depends on continuing technological improvement and on equitable burden sharing. The European Defence Initiative lies at the heart of this, for the good of Europe, the transatlantic alliance and the international community as a whole.
"The beyond visual range air-to-air missile is a vital component of the Eurofighter's ability to dominate the skies. It promises to be a highly accurate, highly manoeuvrable missile that will significantly improve Eurofighter's 'no-escape' zone, and hence will ensure that this world-class aircraft can combat all projected air threats. It will make a major contribution to the air superiority requirements of the United Kingdom and coalition partners, including NATO operations. Our priority is to sustain Eurofighter's superior capability as far as possible into its service life, which will extend well

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towards the middle of the century. We have to secure the highest performance, at best overall value for the taxpayer
"We have had the advantage of a strong competition with high-quality bids from Matra BAe Dynamics and Raytheon Systems Limited. The competition has been keenly fought, and many honourable Members have written to me and to other Ministers.
"After a thorough, indeed exhaustive, process we have concluded that the Meteor missile offered by Matra BAe Dynamics and its consortium is likely to best meet our needs over the life of the Eurofighter aircraft. The overall performance promised by Meteor will ensure that Eurofighter is equipped with the best weapon possible and will deliver the air superiority that is central to success in military operations.
"Meteor is a collaborative venture with Germany, Italy, Spain—our Eurofighter partners—France and, we hope, Sweden. We now plan to conclude a memorandum of understanding with those European partners by the end of the year, formally committing us all to this programme. Subject also to agreement of satisfactory terms and conditions with Matra BAE Dynamics, we will award a contract as soon as possible.
"This will be a Smart contract. Tightly defined breakpoints in the contract will be linked to flight tests and other demonstrable achievements. These will focus on, first, the ram-jet motor, then guidance systems, and finally data-links and electronic counter-measures. Specific dates will be attached to each.
"These breakpoints will be auditable and capable of external independent evaluation. If these are not delivered, the contract will be terminated by the partner nations which will recover all development costs from the contractor.
"Meteor is expected to enter service with the RAF in the latter half of this decade. Meanwhile, we intend to buy more of the currently highly capable advanced medium-range air-to-air missile, produced by Raytheon, to equip Eurofighter when it first comes into service.
"Our decision will give the RAF the most advanced air-to-air missile in the world. It will be welcome to our European partners. It will also be welcomed by our US allies as a clear indication of our commitment to a strong defence capability, available for all operations in which the United Kingdom might be involved.
"Industry in the United Kingdom will also welcome this decision. Matra BAe estimates that it will create or sustain some 1,200 jobs in the UK, including at Stevenage, Bristol and Stanmore. Many of these will be high-quality jobs in new technology, and in system and software design. The United Kingdom will lead this major project.
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"I turn now to our strategic airlift requirements. Improving the mobility and deployability of our forces was a key theme of the Strategic Defence Review. Events in the Balkans and, more recently, Mozambique and Sierra Leone, have underlined the high priority of increasing our strategic airlift capability. Both NATO's Defence Capabilities Initiative, and the Headline Goal adopted at the Helsinki European Council, identify this capability as one in which Europeans need to make particular improvements.
"We have explored a number of possible avenues to meet our immediate needs as well as the longer-term requirement. After careful consideration, we have determined that the best short to medium-term solution is a lease of four C-17 Globemaster aircraft from the Boeing company. They will begin the first of several years of service with the RAF from the middle of next year. These flexible, capable aircraft will deliver vital, early support to our new Joint Rapid Reaction Forces. They will also make a crucial contribution to improving the aircraft capabilities available for NATO and European operations and to inter-operability with the United States.
"Beyond this short-term lease, we have now decided that our heavy lift needs from the latter part of this decade onwards would be best met by the A400M aircraft from Airbus Military Company.
"This promises to be a superb aircraft—a new design that is specifically tailored to meet our military requirement. Moreover, the A400M should offer an extremely flexible capability, covering both the tactical and strategic roles. It offers scope for a multi-national support package and substantial through-life cost savings.
"At this point, our commitment to A400M is necessarily conditional, in that it is based on assumptions that are dependent both on our potential partners and on Airbus—on their commitments to sufficient numbers of aircraft at launch and the establishment of a viable programme.
"We hope that we can sign a contract for the A400M urgently but this must be based on realistic figures for purchase. All countries must balance the size of firm commitments against other priorities for defence equipment. The United Kingdom will order 25 aircraft in the A400M initial launch. This is sufficient to build a viable programme, while safeguarding our industrial interests. We look forward to other partners following our lead so together we may confirm the launch order as soon as possible.
"But affordability will also rest on confirmation of unit prices at the level offered by Airbus, commitment to the in-service date we require and satisfactory negotiation of commercial terms and conditions. Programme launch and contract placement must also be achieved within a reasonable timeframe.

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"This is a Smart process too. We shall hold European industry to its promises.
"If Airbus cannot offer us and our partners an affordable and manageable programme on this basis, we shall he able to meet our military requirement and protect the taxpayers' interests by purchasing a fleet of Boeing C-17 aircraft as an alternative.
"But we do look forward to success in this exciting and innovative programme.
"A400M will offer great benefits to the United Kingdom. BAe Systems expects the programme to create directly 3,400 long-term, high-skill, high-wage jobs—in particular at its sites at Filton, Broughton and Prestwick—with indirect employment taking this figure to over 10,000.
"Our industry will be at the forefront of developments in the aircraft's new technology, including a carbon composite and metallic hybrid wing and a new propulsion system. The project will strengthen the European aerospace industry and will complement the world-leading wing capabilities of British industry that we support through the major investment we have recently announced for the development of the A3XX.
"A vital and technologically innovative element of the A400M will be its engines. Airbus Military as prime contractor will be responsible for selecting the best power plant so that the aircraft will meet its commitments to the partner nations on performance and price. However, we shall make sure that in its decision Airbus Military takes full account of the merits of the likely proposal from Rolls-Royce and the undeniable quality of its products.
"These procurement decisions are of great importance to our Armed Forces and our defence capability for several decades to come. They deliver on our promises in the Strategic Defence Review; they make a significant contribution to Europe's defence capabilities; and they are good news for British industry and jobs.
"I commend them to the House".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
3.53 p.m.
Lord Burnham: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness most warmly for repeating the Statement by her right honourable friend, which will be very much welcomed by your Lordships. I only hope that by now her right honourable friend has released the journalists who have been locked in an office unable, without their telephones, to ring their bookmakers since 2.45.
We must give our warmest congratulations to British Aerospace on the decision that has been made. It is, however, necessary to ask the Government what took them so long. This suggests a degree of in-fighting among various departments. The decision will be welcomed universally by those parts of the Armed Forces which will operate the equipment. But I hope that today's decision does not turn into tomorrow's
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problem. Meteor is in the design stage and is st:ill concept that has not been tested or proved. That is recognised by the short-term approval of the Raytheon BVRAAM. Is the Secretary of State buying an unproven missile at twice the cost for good European reasons? Unlike the American missile, this is untried technology.
I should be grateful if the Minister could put on record the cost and in-service date of the Meteor missile. What considerations other than cost were taken into consideration in the decision? What guarantees are there that other European countries will commit themselves? If they do not back it, or the project is unsustainable for any reason, will the United Kingdom be left without a beyond visual range missile for the Eurofighter? What is the fallback situation? If the in-service date is unsatisfactory what will the Government do? Having said that, we welcome the decision.
With regard to heavy lift capability, will the Government put on record the number of C-17s that they intend eventually to lease, and the cost? Is there an option to buy these aircraft? Most important of all, what is the effect of the decision to lease the C-17s on the production of the A400M? Surely, when crews become used to C-17s they will be reluctant to change even to a more advanced aircraft. It may be a wrong decision to have three different heavy lift aircraft in commission, or will the C-130Js be retired early? With three systems, one needs back-up, spares and everything else, which inevitably lead to an increase m the cost and complication of the whole exercise. What is the future of the A400M? It cannot be good; it looks like another Rover, ro-ro ferry or Ford.
How committed are other countries to heavy lift aircraft, and what is the critical mass in terms of numbers? The possible plan that has been quoted involves 195. However, that puts the United Kingdom's requirement at 45. The Secretary of State has announced today the figure of 25. Is 195 an accurate figure? What is the breakeven point for the A400M? Even on the basis of 195, there appears to be a reduction in the number of orders from Germany and Italy in particular. Do we have assurances from those countries and others that they wish to proceed with the A400M? The United States is to replace the C-130Js at the end of this decade. Should not European and American strategic transport requirements be harmonised to allow large production runs, which appear to have a major advantage?
Finally, I should like to raise one matter which is separate from the subject that we are considering. What are the implications of this decision for future tanker aircraft which must have an involvement? Having said that, we very much welcome the Statement and the decision.
3.58 p.m.
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, we on these Benches support the Meteor programme and the development of the A400M with the short-term use of the C-17. However, I should like to ask a number of questions.

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First, as the Meteor system is at the moment only at the development stage it may experience the problems that other weapons system commissioned by the armed services have suffered in the past. I hope that the Minister will report to the House, not necessarily in the form of a Statement, on how those tests are developing over the coming few years.
Although we support the use of the C-17 as a short-term interim measure, our concern is that those aircraft will be on lease. How will that affect their operating capabilities in war zones? Shall we be able to use the C-17 in areas of conflict? Will the Government also make the C-17 and the A400M, when it comes online, available to the United Nations? During debate on the Statement yesterday, we on these Benches raised the issue that some UN forces were unable to reach Sierra Leone with their equipment because they lacked the heavy-lift capability and that it was not being supplied by other members of the United Nations. I hope that the Government will indicate that the aircraft will be available for UN operations.
Finally, according to the Statement, the development of the A400M is seen to be complementary to the development of the A3XX and the dependent large number of jobs. If, due to the cost constraints which may arise from the full price of the development of the aircraft, the A400M is cancelled, what effect will that have on the development of the A3XX?
4 p.m.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for what I believe on this occasion has been a genuinely warm welcome of my right honourable friend's Statement. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Burnham, that your Lordships' House in general will welcome the Statement, in particular as regards heavy airlift. Seven noble colleagues raised that issue in the debate on defence last Friday. I hope that they, too, will be happy with the outcome.
There was no infighting between government departments on these decisions. They were closely fought competitions. They are complex projects. We are talking about three projects. Whereas the Meteor project—the beyond visual range missile project—stands on its own, the strategic airlift project was divided into a short-term need and a longer-term need. Identifying the C-17 as covering the short-term need and the A400M as the longer-term need was always a possibility.
Yes, the noble Lords, Lord Burnham and Lord Redesdale, are right: Meteor is at the design stage. But Her Majesty's Government believe that Meteor is the best of the tenders put forward in terms of the overall lifetime of the Eurofighter. It will arm the RAF with a missile which will make a major contribution to the air superiority requirements of the United Kingdom and our coalition partners.
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I was asked about the cost. I cannot give detailed costings because of the commercial in-confidence rules. But I can tell your Lordships that the overall costs of the Meteor project are approximately £1 billion. Some noble Lords have expressed recently some worries in your Lordships' House about the MoD always going for the cheapest option. It is worth saying that we have looked carefully at capability, not cost. Value for money is not synonymous with accepting the cheapest tender. I think that your Lordships will see this decision as very strong evidence of that aim at work. As I said when making the Statement, there will be break points in this contract. I stress to your Lordships that the break points will be capable of audit and external independent evaluation. That is an important point. We focused in particular on the ram-jet motor on the guidance systems and on the datalinks electronic counter measures. So we have a checking mechanism in place which I hope meets the natural concerns that there are bound to be about the project still being at a developmental stage.
I stress to your Lordships that if the missiles are not developed, the partner nations will cover all development costs from the contractor. I hope that noble Lords will see that as a significant advance in the Smart contracts we are now seeking to develop on these issues.
The noble Lord, Lord Burnham, asked what would happen if there were a failure in the project. We would go back to the market to secure the missile system that we need.
The noble Lord then turned his attention to the C-17. There will be four of those aircraft leased over a seven-year period. The total cost over that period will be in the region of £0.5 billion for that element. I do not believe that the RAF will be reluctant to make the change to this aircraft. I believe that the RAF is full of extraordinarily skilled pilots who will relish the opportunity to fly what we believe will be an extraordinarily capable aircraft. I stress to the noble Lord that we shall not have three aircraft in operation together for very long because we shall be finishing the seven-year lease on the C-17s as we bring in the A400Ms. We shall have the C-130Js which, as the noble Lord knows, have been brought into service as part of our longer-term strategic airlift requirement. At present, noble Lords will know that we have 51 C-130s. Twenty-five or 26 C-130Js are coming in. There will then be 25 A400Ms which have one and a half times the capacity of the C-130 Hercules aircraft.
As regards the A400Ms, the partner countries are Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Turkey and Belgium. We have identified 25 aircraft as our need. We believe that it is time for complete straightforwardness over this and that partner nations should not be willing to deal in the realms of speculation about what they might do. Without being too conceited, I hope I can say that the United Kingdom has given a lead on this. We hope that the partner nations will now also take the plunge and say what number of these aircraft they require.

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The noble Lord asked what number we need. I have heard various figures quoted. I have heard various figures quoted by Airbus Military itself. They vary from 150 to 270 or 280. I suspect that there is a good deal of flexibility in that number as we shall see when our partners start to declare.
The noble Lord also asked about harmonisation. There will be considerable harmonisation if all partner nations take up the challenge and go for the A400M. On the tanker aircraft, it is a somewhat different decision. It is a PH project and we ye still trying to formulate the way in which we shall run that competition.
In answering the questions addressed to me by the noble Lord, Lord Burnham, I hope that I have covered the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale. The C-17s are on lease. The test was real value for money. It was a leasing decision. It may sound an unusual decision, but noble Lords should recognise that leasing is what occurs in the civil world. There are considerable advantages to leasing aircraft. We are not in the position of having to go to a spot market to try to hire the capability we need because we shall be able to take these aircraft where we want them. They will be ours for the using. We shall not have to try to extract them from wherever they may be with the painful business of explaining why we want them and so on. They will be ours to use. They will be available to the United Nations if appropriate. Indeed, as I believe the Statement implied, had we had them, we would have used them in Mozambique and Sierra Leone. However, we shall have them soon.
4.10 p.m.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, with regard to the Royal Air Force I believe that the noble Baroness has made the right decision in moving from the Hercules to the Boeing A400. As she said, I am sure that from an operational point of view there will be no problems for the Royal Air Force. First, in relation to heavy-lift, can she give even an approximate figure of how many additional jobs there might be at Prestwick? Secondly, every pilot to whom I have spoken who has had the privilege of flying the Eurofighter says that it is an exceptional aircraft. Does the Minister really mean that it will not be in service until approximately 2008 or 2009, and is that with or without Meteor? Virtually 10 years is a long time to wait until it is put into squadron service, and I am sure that the Royal Air Force would like to have it quicker than that.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: No, my Lords. We are expecting to take delivery of the first Eurofighters in the year 2002. The delivery period will take place between 2002 and 2014. In the initial stages it will be armed with the AMRAAM missile. However, during the latter stages of taking delivery of the Eurofighter we shall arm it with the superior capability offered by the Meteor missile system. We hope that that will be towards the end of the decade. The supply of Eurofighters will be built up over that period, reaching a peak after about 2005, when we hope to take delivery of approximately 20 or so a year.
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I thank the noble Lord for his support on heavy-lift. He asked specifically about jobs. I have a full breakdown on a number of different job issues. I believe that it may be helpful if I write to the noble Lord with that breakdown. I believe that it is rather invidious to go into detail on where the jobs will be concentrated. However, in relation to heavy airlift, the concentration of jobs is likely to be in the north-west of England and, of course, in Broughton. Therefore, approximately 3,500 jobs in Broughton will be sustained directly by the decision on the A400M. We hope that that will build to approximately 10,000 jobs in the supporting industries which we believe, and which the company tell us, will flourish as a result.
Lord Hardy of Wath: My Lords, perhaps I may congratulate my noble friend for four reasons: first, on ensuring that the Royal Air Force will have adequate transport aircraft, and particularly the heavy-lift which has long been needed and was certainly needed before the last election. I also thank her for ensuring that the Eurofighter will be a highly competitive aircraft. Even though we are talking of enormous cost, will it not also be a great deal cheaper than the F22, its possible competitor? Thirdly, I thank my noble friend for ensuring that Britain retains the highest level of technological capacity in this field. Fourthly, and not least important, does my noble friend accept that the Government deserve congratulation on their approach to procurement? If they had not adopted that approach, the British taxpayer would be paying a great deal more.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I am delighted to accept all those splendid bouquets from my noble friend. It is a personal delight to me that we have managed to make these decisions. As your Lordships know, as the Minister for Defence Procurement this issue has been placed particularly on my desk and, before me, that of my noble friend Lord Gilbert, who, of course, contributed very heavily to these decisions.
I agree with my noble friend about the heavy-lift requirements. We have scarcely undertaken an operation in which one or other of your Lordships has not had occasion to remind us that we should make progress on this matter; and quite right, too.
With regard to the Eurofighter, the comparison figures that I have show that it will cost some 60 million dollars per aircraft—that is, approximately £40.9 million—and the F22, some 120 million dollars. I shall have to leave noble Lords to their excellent arithmetic to work out the equivalent in pounds. However, even I can see that the Eurofighter is half the cost of the F22, a point about which we might remind the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. I know that he has concerns on that front.
The procurement decision is enormously important in terms of technical capability and jobs, about which noble Lords opposite were asking. I refer not only to the number of jobs but to their quality and calibre.

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They are highly technical and well paid jobs, and they should be a source of considerable prosperity to the regions where they will be concentrated.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, the Minister has produced a considerable shopping list. Some of the figures that she mentioned give us an indication of what we are about to spend. Having made the calculations, inexact as they must be, perhaps I may ask whether she assumes that the overall defence budget of this country and of the Government will be substantially increased as a result of the shopping list that has now been produced. If so, would that have implications for other spending departments of the United Kingdom Government?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: No, my Lords. I do not believe that there are any implications for other spending departments in what my noble friend has quite rightly described as a considerable shopping list. Of course, I fully appreciate that in absolute terms the list is expensive. The Meteor comes in at approximately £1 billion over its lifetime; the A400M at £3.5 billion; and the C-17 at £0.5 billion over the seven-year period. That has been well understood.
As I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, the figures have been worked through by those who have responsibility for these matters within the Ministry of Defence. Your Lordships will not be surprised to know that a great deal of interest in them has also been shown throughout Whitehall. Of course it has. It is quite right that the figures are crawled over. They are within the MoD's budget.
Despite one or two noble Lords having expressed doubts last week about our willingness within the MoD to put the needs for these capabilities before everything else, I hope that today's decisions have made it clear to all your Lordships that we have, indeed, put the capability of our Armed Forces first.
Lord Hoyle: My Lords, will my noble friend take note that, unlike in some quarters in this House, what she has said today is welcomed by the Labour Benches? The decision to order Meteor, the A400M and, of course, to recommend Rolls-Royce as the power unit is good news. It keeps us in the forefront of technology and creates many jobs in this country. Therefore, will she please accept our congratulations and pass them on to her right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence? She also knows of my interest in the heavy-lift programme. Perhaps I may ask her whether the A400M is a preferred supply.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for raising those points and, of course, I shall convey his thanks to my right honourable friend. I agree with everything that he said about ensuring that we remain in the forefront of technology. I agree also with his point with regard to jobs. In making these decisions it is important that we look at the competitive edge. We should always try to
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ensure that we have viable competition for the future. That consideration may not always be terribly clear when one is looking from the outside of a project.
I shall take advice on the specific question that my noble friend asked me. If he will bear with me, I shall write to him on the point that he raised about the preferred supplier and place a copy of my letter in the Library of the House.
Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, with, I am sure, all Members of the House I welcome the content of the Statement, particularly the decision to go ahead with the C-17. The fact that that proposal was trailed in the SDR two years ago and that it has taken so long to reach it is obviously a great shame. Nevertheless, we are there and I am delighted to hear it.
I hope that the Minister will bear in mind that 20 years ago the Royal Air Force had great difficulty with a large number of different types of aircraft in its inventory which, inevitably, had a roll-on cost effect on training and spare supply. I hope that in doing the sums for our future transport requirements the fact that there may be more than one, two or even three types of aircraft in that inventory will be looked into very carefully.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I do assure the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, that that point has been taken into consideration. The fact is that a period of overlap exists between releasing the leased C-17s and the incoming A400Ms. I do not believe that it will be very long. I would not expect it to be longer than a year or two. Of course there will be the C130Js, so the lease period is for about seven years. We expect them to see the A440Ms coming into service. The overlap which the noble Lord draws to our attention is something about which we should be very careful, and one would expect his former colleagues in the Ministry of Defence to be very vigilant on this issue. I assure him that they have been, and I am sure that they will continue to be.
As to the length of time it has taken on the C-17s, I stress that although the decisions over the short-term issue over the lease are completely separate, in one sense, to the longer-term issue, they are inevitably linked. It was very important when making these decisions to make sure that the decision was going to be properly cost effective, that we were not going to have decisions that looked as if they were not going to be meshed together, that they were cost-cutting or that there was some other financial deficit in what we were considering. I am sorry that this has taken a longer period than originally expected, but I am delighted that we have made the decision now.
Viscount Waverley: My Lords, I also express relief on the Meteor decision well made. Would the Minister agree with me that the timing of this announcement could not be better, given the Minister's visit to Athens to secure, we hope, the first Eurofighter export order?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: I have to tell the noble Viscount that that is completely fortuitous. I

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would not like any of your Lordships to believe that this decision was taken on the basis of where the next visit of the Minister of Defence Procurement was likely to take place. The noble Viscount is quite right. Not only is this good news in relation to that particular visit, but it is very good news in relation to other countries to which we may wish to sell the aircraft. I hope that by displaying our confidence we will show other countries, by what we do as well as what we say, that we do mean business.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I, too, share the great pleasure and satisfaction with this news on procurement. I hope the Minister agrees with me and accepts that the many other concerns being voiced last week, not least by me, were about spending on people, spending on housing, spending on training, exercises and so forth. That is what we were very concerned about as well as the other issue. But this is splendid and I look forward to the Minister doing something about those concerns.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for reminding us of the importance of spending on people as well as on equipment. I should say to the noble Baroness that it is very important, when we are trying to bring young people into the Armed Forces and trying to persuade those who have already joined to stay, that we do indicate how much we value our Armed Forces by equipping them properly. It is a vital component in ensurng that the Armed Forces, not only are properly valued but feel properly valued. Everything I have heard today from our friends in the Royal Air Force indicates that they are delighted with these decisions and that they—and. I hope others—will take heart that the Government are doing what they can to equip our Armed Forces properly.
Lord Paul: My Lords, I congratulate the Minister and the Ministry of Defence on keeping British jobs in mind by making this decision.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for making that point. I think it is very good, particularly at this time, that we have been able to take a decision which is such good news for British jobs. I stress to my noble friend and to others in your Lordships' House, lest there be any misunderstanding, that we have taken these decisions principally for two reasons. One is that they offer a superb capability to our Armed Forces and the second is that they offer very good value for money to the British taxpayer. I am delighted that they have the additional benefit to which my noble friend also referred.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, are the C-17s new aircraft, or have they been used elsewhere? Following on from that, when will they be received into service?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I believe they are new aircraft. I think we would have
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something to say about it if they were not. I do not know the particular history of the aircraft we are going to take into the RAF. I am pretty sure that they are going to be brand new aircraft. If there is any adjustment I have to make to that I will write to the noble Earl.
We are expecting to take delivery of two of these aircraft next year and two the year after that.

Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000
4.25 p.m.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord Falconer of Thoroton)rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 15th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this order is made under paragraph 1 (1) of the schedule to the Northern Ireland Act 2000.
The key provisions of the draft order are essentially the following: to provide the Secretary of State with regulation-making powers to regulate the flying of flags on government buildings in Northern Ireland; to ensure that the regulations would be referred in draft to the Northern Ireland Assembly; to provide that the Secretary of State shall consider any report made by the Assembly of the views expressed in the Assembly: to require the Secretary of State to have regard to the Belfast agreement when making regulations and to provide that the regulations are laid in draft before, and approved by, both Houses of Parliament.
Under direct rule, the position was that the Union flag was flown from all government buildings on certain set days. These included most of the days on which the Union flag was flown from government buildings elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but also included some extra days specific only to Northern Ireland, including, for example, St Patrick's Day and 12th July.
The basis of practice on flag flying is, formally, a Royal Command by Her Majesty issued on the Royal Prerogative. Under devolution, these powers of the Royal Prerogative were transferred, in respect of devolved matters, to the individual Northern Ireland Ministers and departments.
During the 10 weeks of devolution, there was no common position among the Northern Ireland Ministers on how they should exercise their prerogative powers in relation to flags. The result was that most departments flew the Union flag from all their buildings on all the specified days; but two departments, under the instructions of their Ministers, did not fly the Union flag at all.
The Government believe that this difficult—though symbolic—issue is best resolved by the Executive Committee itself. Its members are best equipped to identify a basis on which practical and symbolic expression can be given to the underlying principles of

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the Good Friday agreement, the principle of consent, the principle of equality and the principle of mutual respect.
However, the Government do not want to see the Executive distracted by an essentially symbolic issue from their work to build up a sense of common collective purpose and approach to the business of governing Northern Ireland in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland.
So this draft order provides a reserve power to set regulations on flag flying from government buildings in Northern Ireland. This reserve power will only be used if it becomes clear that the Executive Committee is unable to agree a way forward and the issue is becoming a palpable source of division among its members.
This reserve power has a number of important safeguards. As I have already said, the power to make regulations about flag-flying on government buildings in Northern Ireland will not be exercised until the Executive Committee has had an opportunity to see whether it can resolve the issue itself. But if this power is to be exercised to remove a potential source of division, it shall be done only in consultation with the Assembly and the Executive Committee. The draft order requires consultation with the Assembly on any regulations and any views it reports are taken into account.
The draft order also requires, very properly, that regard is paid to the provisions of the Belfast agreement—provisions on the principle of consent, on the principle of equality of treatment for the different identities and the provision for symbols and emblems to be used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division.
Finally any regulations are to be approved in both Houses of Parliament.
The Government are not imposing proposals. If, at the end of the day, there is a need to exercise this reserve power there are a number of questions which will need to be answered. What arrangements for flag flying are suitable for government buildings in Northern Ireland and which respect the provisions of the Good Friday agreement? Is it right that the Union flag should be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on more days than is the case elsewhere in the United Kingdom? Is it necessarily helpful to require the flag to fly from every government building, wherever it is located and however significant or insignificant it may be? What other arrangements should be in place for flag flying?
The Government believe that a common-sense arrangement, respecting all the principles of the Good Friday agreement, can be arrived at with good will by the members of the Executive Committee. It is on that basis—hoping that the Government never need this power, but ready to use it if the Executive Committee cannot reach agreement—that I commend this draft order to the House. I beg to move.
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Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 15th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)
4.30 p.m.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, before saying anything on the order, I should like to thank the Government Chief Whip's office. The business today has been fairly confused and the Government Chief Whip's office has been extremely helpful. It has gone out of its way to make sure that those of us concerned with this order had a reasonable idea of when it would be dealt with.
I thank the Minister for the clear and precise way in which he explained the need for the order. I do not like it. I think it is a great shame that we must legislate not only in the House and another place but also, perhaps, in a Northern Ireland Assembly about whether and when we fly our national flag from our nation's government buildings. I find that very distasteful.
I feel that it is yet another move in the wrong direction. It would have been very much more helpful if the actions of the two Sinn Fein Ministers had not been highlighted in that way and they had quietly been told to go on doing what is customary to be done by the nation's Government whom they are serving. I should like to point out that those two Sinn Fein Ministers are serving in a British Government in a British state and, indeed, in part of the United Kingdom. It is traditional. As the Minister said, it is the Queen's Prerogative that the Union flag will be flown on government buildings within the United Kingdom on certain given days, ordered by her.
The other matter which concerns me about the order is its wording. So often in Northern Ireland orders, there is fudged wording. Part III states:
"The Secretary of State may make regulations regarding the flying of flags over government buildings".
It is the Union flag which is flown over government buildings. I believe that the wording of the order sends the wrong message or it is sloppy. I do not believe that it should be sloppy. We are talking about the Union flag.
I do not like this order; I do not like the way that it is pointing; and I do not believe that the 60 per cent of the population who are Unionists in Northern Ireland will appreciate it either.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the order and I endorse the view of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, that it was done with commendable clarity.
It is vital that this order goes through. The flags issue, important and symbolic though it is, should not impede this stage of the peace process. The order provides an opportunity for Northern Ireland opinion of all kinds to make its views felt when devolution returns, as we hope it will.

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It is important that this should not be an issue which is allowed to be ratcheted up at this particular point in the negotiations. On these Benches, we unequivocally support the order.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, was on the Front Bench earlier today when I questioned the noble Baroness the Leader of the House on why Standing Order 72 was being dispensed with for the taking of this order so that it could be passed, notwithstanding the fact that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments had not reported on it.
The fact that the JCSI met today at quarter past four suggests to me that by now it has passed the order, but obviously there has not been time to report on it.
The noble Baroness's reasons seemed to me to be anodyne, so much so that one of my noble friends wanted to divide the House. In my view, that would have been quite wrong as the Motion which the noble Baroness sought to move at that point covered both orders. I am glad that, in the event, no Division was called.
The noble Baroness's reasons were, first, that this had been agreed through the usual channels, something of which I was not aware as I am not a member of the usual channels; and, secondly, that there is a Privy Council meeting tomorrow at which it is due to be discussed. It is my view that neither of those constitutes the emergency for which this standing order was designed.
The order transfers the responsibility for flags from the Assembly to the Secretary of State. As the noble and learned Lord said, there is no statutory provision for the flying of flags on government buildings in the United Kingdom. In Great Britain, the flying of the Union flag on public buildings is by royal command and is an exercise of the Royal Prerogative. Under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, royal prerogative powers on transferred matters can be exercised by any Northern Ireland Minister. Since the flying of flags is a transferred matter, it should be dealt with, as the noble and learned Lord said, by the Executive Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly and, ultimately, by the Assembly itself.
However, in the light of political sensitivities concerning this matter, the Secretary of State has decided that he should take the authority to regulate the flying of flags on Northern Ireland government buildings should the need arise.
One of the reasons for that is the anticipation of the reconstitution or re-establishment of the Assembly on 22nd May, which is next week. Clearly, neither the Government nor anyone else wants that to start with a row on this or any other matter. One can understand that. Unfortunately, however, as I read the order, it does not stop the potentially antagonistic debate in the Assembly because the order provides that where the Secretary of State proposes to make regulations to regulate the flying of flags a draft of those regulations shall be referred to the Northern Ireland Assembly which, in turn, as the noble and learned Lord said, will
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report to the Secretary of State the views expressed by the Assembly. The regulations will then be subject to approval by both Houses of Parliament.
So I am even more confused. First, it will not stop the potential row; and secondly, the urgency simply disappears because the second order, which will operate the flying of flags, is still to be laid before the House.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I have one or two questions for the Minister. First, the order expressly states:
"'government building' means a building wholly or mainly occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service".
Does that include or exclude Stormont?
Secondly, we are told in the Explanatory Note and, indeed, in the Minister's speech, that the Secretary of State will have regard to the Belfast agreement. The Belfast agreement clearly states that it is recognised:
"that the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland's status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish. It would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of the majority of its people".
I appeal to the Belfast agreement to support my argument.
However, I have a further argument. The Minister said, and it is often said, that we should not allow all this fuss about symbols to get in the way of serious decisions. The Belfast agreement states:
"All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes".
I could continue with that paragraph, but I shall not. Perhaps I may suggest that we should, indeed, meet the needs of the Belfast agreement. We should acknowledge that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, has a right to fly the Union flag and need not be expected to fly any other flag. However, I freely accept that if the British/Irish Council or the other joint body, during its meetings, should wish to fly the Irish flag also on Stormont, which I understand is what the Nationalists want, that seems perfectly reasonable. But we are talking about part of the United Kingdom. The Belfast agreement justifies our sticking to that position.
Lord Rogan: My Lords, I. too, wish to speak on this order, the tone and tenor of which gives me grave concern. I believe that this issue cuts right across the unionism of the kingdom and lies at the heart of the Good Friday agreement.
The reason we are discussing this subject here today is largely due to the activities of two Sinn Fein/IRA Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive who, while in office, ordered the removal of the Union flag from their departmental building. I am sure that I do not need to remind anyone present in this House today of the importance which flags and emblems assume in Northern Ireland.
When the agreement was signed over two years ago, Unionists believed that there had been an acceptance on the part of the Irish Nationalists and the Irish

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Republicans of the principle of consent; in other words, an acceptance of the fact that there could be no change in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority of the citizens of Northern Ireland. That point was of fundamental importance and, indeed, was recognised and built upon by the actions of the Irish Government in replacing Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution which hitherto had laid claim to Northern Ireland.
If there is serious doubt as to what flag should fly over government and public buildings in the Province, we must examine the nature of the Belfast agreement. It is either, as Unionists believe, a recognition by all sides of the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom or as part of a process designed to move Northern Ireland inexplicably towards a united Ireland or some form of joint authority.
It is my view that while the order is a step forward in that it removes the power of banning the flying of the Union flag from individual members of the Northern Ireland Executive and places that power in the hands of the Secretary of State, I believe that today we should instead be discussing on what days the flag will fly and on which buildings.
As I have stated, this issue cuts right across unionism. There are no "yes" and "no" camps on the flying of the Union flag within a constituent part of the kingdom. The constitutional settlement provided for by the Belfast agreement is within the United Kingdom and on the same basis as for Scotland and Wales. There can be no question, as was raised in some quarters at the weekend, of the Irish tricolour flying alongside the Union flag on British government and public buildings in Northern Ireland. That is a particularly dangerous notion which must be stamped on at the earliest possible opportunity.
The Irish tricolour is the national flag of another sovereign state. For it to fly alongside the Union flag on government buildings would signal to many Unionists and, indeed, Nationals, that a form of joint authority was in place in Northern Ireland. That certainly was not part of any agreement which I supported and for which many Unionists voted. The Secretary of State should be in no doubt that the national flag is the only flag which should fly over government and public buildings in Northern Ireland, and that means the Union flag.
Lord Biffen: My Lords, no one can view the impractical affairs of Northern Ireland without having great sympathy for those on the Government Front Bench who have to handle the responsibilities of that Province. However, my sympathies lie with those who have great anxiety about the instrument before us. I say that because it seems that we are enveloping the whole business of flag flying with a most extraordinary degree of legislation of one sort or another.
I cannot believe that the practical consequences of that will be other than to put pressure upon the flying of the Union flag. I believe that in its way, because of
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the symbolism, it is in line of succession with the Patten report on the Royal Ulster Constabulary. It is all part of a situation where, by one means or another, there is a subtle process at work—I do not say that it is the responsibility of the Government; it goes much wider than the British political system—of hoping to shoehorn Northern Ireland out of its traditional Unionist loyalties into some other form. I view that with suspicion and sadness.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, for the good reasons expressed by noble Lords in their speeches, I share the general anxieties about the order. We hope that goodwill will prevail and that the order might not be required. But surely if it was required, it is inconceivable that the Government would prevent the flying of the Union flag in Northern Ireland. I should have thought that the Government could come out and say now, "We want to make certain that if there is disagreement, we will fly the Union flag" because that is so important from the point of view of the United Kingdom.
I cannot understand, as, indeed, I believe my noble friend Lord Glentoran said at the beginning of the debate, why this is called the Flags Order. We do not have any old flag. This should be the Union Flag Order as far as this Parliament is concerned. As my noble friend Lord Biffen mentioned, it is sad that we have reached this stage of legislating relative to our own flag. If one goes abroad, particularly to the United States of America, one will see the United States flag flying everywhere. Throughout the suburbs of many areas of the USA not only are there United States flags flying but state flags also. The people there are very flag minded. I believe that is true in Northern Ireland where, rightly, they like to promote the use of our Union flag.
I share the view of my noble friend Lady Park of Monmouth as regards the statement:
"occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service".
That does not seem to me to be a good definition of a government building. Does it include military buildings? What about army camps? Are they entitled to fly the Union flag, as they often do, alongside their regimental flag? As my noble friend asked, does it apply to RUC police stations and headquarters?
As my noble friend Lord Glentoran indicated right from the start, it was a sad affair to bring this order to the House. It is sad that it is necessary and sad that the Government have any doubt in their mind as to what they would do if there was disagreement within the Assembly in Northern Ireland. I cannot believe that any government, particularly a government here at Westminster, could prevent the flying of the Union flag in Northern Ireland and even the possibility of flying it alongside the tricolour. It just does not seem feasible to me, and I think that the Government should stand up and say, "If there is any doubt, yes, we fly the Union flag".
Lord Hylton: My Lords, I think I can understand some of the fears and anxieties expressed during this

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debate. They seem to reflect the tensions that arise from a deeply divided society. I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord the Minister whether he agrees that probably the fewer flags, of any kind, that can be flown in Northern Ireland the better for all concerned.
As regards flags on government property, there is a precedent which might usefully be followed. That is the precedent which seems to govern the letterheads on the official writing paper of Northern Ireland government departments. These simply and plainly state the name and address of the department, and are not embellished with coats of arms, crests or other devices. Perhaps that could be borne in mind.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I regard the Motion which is before the House today as rather analogous to what happened on Good Friday two years ago, when the Belfast Agreement was drawn up. I think I am right in saying that securing the vote of the people of Northern Ireland for the Belfast Agreement was on the basis of not just everything that was in the agreement but also a personal assurance that was given by the Prime Minister overnight and the handwritten note that was presented alongside the agreement to the people of Northern Ireland, reassuring them on their basic and rather fundamental fears about the issue of decommissioning.
I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, is agreeing with me that there was a concern that the people of Northern Ireland would not actually sign the agreement without that reassurance. I believe that to be the case. What we have here is another device—the word "device" has just been used—and I would not regard flying the flag of one's own sovereign country to be a device. However, this is a device: it is a device to take yet another issue about Northern Ireland, kick it into the long grass, and leave it to be fought over another day. I believe that this is a fudge and a typical "third way" in the Government's handling of matters in Northern Ireland.
I should like to say that flying the flag of one's own sovereign country is a basic human right and the people of Northern Ireland should be allowed to exercise that right. I can only foresee, as I think my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale said, that this difficult and painful debate will continue. Indeed, I believe it will bring it into greater focus. That is because the people will be preoccupied with this as the first issue that needs to be addressed by the Assembly and the Executive when they meet. They will first have to resolve the flags issue.
It seems to me almost offensive to refer to "flags". I agree with the point made by my noble friend Lord Glentoran: that we should at least extend the courtesy to our friends in Northern Ireland, our fellow countrymen, of referring to "the Union flag" and not saying merely "flags".
Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, I am very sympathetic towards the Government over the very difficult problem that faces them. I have sympathy, too, with the Unionists of Northern Ireland in their difficulty. I know that the Nationalists can be
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somewhat irritating, to say the least, but I wonder whether it is absolutely necessary or helpful to fly the Union flag on 12th July.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for the contributions that have been made to this short but important debate. I understand the concern that has been expressed about this order. Perhaps I may try briefly to reply to all the points that have been made. To begin, I should like to say something about the principles that underlie the making of the Order.
First, we believe that this difficult but important issue is best resolved by the Executive, if it can be. We believe that the best way of doing so is to pursue the principles of the Belfast Agreement. As that agreement acknowledges the legitimacy of the position of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom, I believe that practice in Northern Ireland should reflect practice elsewhere in the United Kingdom. It should result in mutual respect, not division.
The Union flag remains the flag of the United Kingdom, of which Northern Ireland is a constituent part. While that is the wish of the majority of its people, flying the flag should be accepted practice. That issue is without doubt best resolved by the Executive. Having said that, it would be in nobody's interest if the Executive was consumed for weeks and months by shadow-boxing over what is essentially a symbolic issue.
All of us would like to see the Executive build up a sense of common collective purpose and approach to the business of governing Northern Ireland in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. This draft order provides my right honourable friend the Secretary of State with a reserve power to set regulations on flag flying from government buildings. He will only use this reserve power if it becomes clear that the Executive is unable to agree a way forward and the issue is becoming a palpable source of division among its members.
Great concern has been expressed in your Lordships' House about the use of the word "flags" rather than "flag". The reason the word appears in the plural is because the order must be able to prohibit as well as to permit. There was absolutely no intention of any sort to cause offence one way or the other by using that phrase. I very much hope what I have said puts your Lordships' minds at rest in relation to that particular issue.—
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Minister for giving way. It was not the plural or the singular that I was referring to: I felt that it should be the "Union flag", as opposed to "flag" or "flags".
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the reason the word is in the plural is, as I have indicated, because there may be more than one flag at issue, both in relation to prohibition and consent. That is why the drafting appears in that way. I hope that is clear.

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The second concern that was expressed was about timing. Legally, the Government only have power to pass this order while the Assembly is suspended. From Monday it will not be possible for them to pass this order and therefore it has to be done this week. That is why it was done at speed, bypassing to some extent the normal procedures. It was not done as an attempt to avoid the proper protections but simply to reflect the fact that if there was to be this reserve power, which we think is important to avoid the risk of the unsuspended Assembly becoming consumed by this issue, it had to be done this week. That is why the normal standing orders have been bypassed.
There was concern about what is a government building. The noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, asked whether it included Stormont, or the parliament building. As I understood it, that was her question. The answer is no, it does not. The Parliament building, as the seat of the legislature, is not under the control of a Northern Ireland Minister in the Executive. Decisions relating to parliament buildings are taken by the Assembly Commission, which is a corporate body made up of Members of the Assembly and chaired by the Speaker.
One question related to army camps. They are not under the control of the Executive but under the control of the Ministry of Defence. Obviously it will be a matter for the Ministry of Defence to determine. As for the RUC, that body is under the control of a chief constable, and obviously it is for him to determine issues about flag flying. I believe I have dealt with all the specific points that were raised. Obviously we understand the great concern that has been expressed, but I hope your Lordships understand that a painstaking and enormous amount of hard work was put into building confidence in an attempt to restore politics to normal in Northern Ireland. We think this is a sensible way forward in this respect, and I commend this Order to the House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) (No. 2) Order 2000
5 p.m.
Lord Falconer of Thorotonrose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 10th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this order appoints 21st May 2001 as the date before which the amnesty period identified in a non-statutory decommissioning scheme must end. The amnesty period is the time during which firearms, ammunition and explosives can be decommissioned in accordance with the scheme, thereby attracting both the amnesty and prohibitions on evidential use and forensic testing of decommissioned items provided by the Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997.
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Section 2 of the 1997 Act requires that a scheme must set out the amnesty period and that it must end before 27th February 1998 unless the Secretary of State, by order, appoints a later day. Three such orders have already been made. Under that made in February this year, the amnesty period will expire at midnight on the 22nd of this month. The purpose of this order is to extend that period until midnight on 20th May next year.
When this order was last extended the political situation in Northern Ireland was very different to that which we see today. My noble friend Lady Farrington sought an extension of the amnesty period only three days after the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive Committee had been suspended due to a serious decline in confidence in the political institutions brought about by a lack of tangible progress on decommissioning. I am delighted to be before your Lordships today under much more positive circumstances.
The details of the recent progress in the political negotiations are now well known to noble Lords and I do not intend to go over them again in great depth. However, I wish to stress again the significance of the IRA statement issued last week. It has undertaken to put its arms completely and verifiably beyond use. It is making arms dumps available to outside inspectors and the first steps are already being taken.
The importance of those undertakings cannot be underestimated. The very real prospect of progress on decommissioning is now within sight. The extension of the amnesty period is crucial to progress on this front. Without the extension of this order decommissioning is simply not possible—whatever commitments are made by the IRA or any other paramilitary organisation.
In order to continue to fulfil our commitments under the agreement, it is essential that we extend, through this order, the period during which an amnesty is provided in respect of offences which might otherwise be committed in the course of decommissioning in accordance with a decommissioning scheme. The confidence-building measure announced by the IRA last week is the first step in a process which will lead to arms being placed completely and verifiably beyond use. The IRA will reengage with the International Decommissioning Commission to take this forward. Arms will be secured in separate dumps which will be inspected by independent third parties.
The Decommissioning Act requires arms to be destroyed or made permanently inaccessible or unusable. Precisely how and when that should take place is a matter for the IICD. The Government are most grateful to former President Martti Ahtisaari of Finland and former General Secretary of the ANC, Cyril Ramaphosa, who have agreed to act as independent inspectors of the arms dumps, reporting to the IICD. Theirs is a crucial task. The Government have every confidence that they will fulfil the role they have been given with the utmost professionalism. They have already visited London and Belfast for an initial

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round of discussions. They met with the IICD while in Belfast to discuss how they will be taking their responsibilities forward. Their visit indicates the speed with which we are moving forward and demonstrates the very real nature of what has been offered by the IRA.
For the first time we have both words and deeds to demonstrate and underpin the IRA's statement that it will pursue its political aims through peaceful means. Those developments are hugely significant. This Government are committed to both devolution and decommissioning. This order is essential to ensure that the conditions exist to make decommissioning happen. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 10th May be approved.—(Lord Falconer of Thoroton.)
Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanation. The second order before the House this afternoon continues for a further 12 months the provisions of the measure taken through another place by my noble friend Lord Mayhew of Twysden four years ago. On this side of the House we agree that the provision should be renewed. The order will last for a further year and we support it.
However, it is sad that it is necessary so to do. If decommissioning had taken place, your Lordships would not have to consider the issue. But we take particular note of the fact that the IRA has made a positive statement on decommissioning, though as yet there has been no such indication from the so-called loyalists. However, we wish the people of Northern Ireland well as they grapple with this difficult problem.
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, we support the passing of this order. We realise it is necessary at this particular point in time otherwise there would be no possibility of decommissioning. Having the two independent assessors—Cyril Ramaphosa and Martti Ahtisaari—reporting to the IICD is good news. Of course, we all wish that this had happened in the past, but let us not be curmudgeonly; this is an important step forward. As the noble Lord, Lord Eames, the Archbishop of Armagh, said on the radio today, this is a significant time. He was indeed being reasonably optimistic, more optimistic in fact than we have heard over the past few years. We should follow his sentiments and give this order a fair wind.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I doubt if anyone would wish to oppose this order. But it worries me that the Minister seems to be living in an optimistic world and looking at this matter through rose-tinted spectacles.
So far as I can discover, the IRA statement gave no date for the commencement of decommissioning; it gave no date for the completion of decommissioning; and it laid down certain conditions which, if one understands IRA-speak, mean the end of the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Northern Ireland before it has committed itself to do anything other than possibly allow two gentlemen—whose motives will be good——to look at some of their
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armaments dumps (not all, but some), I doubt very much whether, in a year's time, we shall have any clear assurance that any arms have been rendered unusable. If the IRA had wanted to render its arms unusable, it could simply pour a few tonnes of ready-mixed concrete into the bunkers. But that is not what is proposed. It proposes that the bunkers should remain there and that the arms should remain there, ready for use and most certainly not decommissioned.
The Minister, no doubt for good reasons, wants to believe that a great step forward has occurred. But I see no great step forward except by Her Majesty's Government along the road to ending the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Northern Ireland.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I hate to be, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, said, curmudgeonly, but I, too, feel doubt about the efficacy of inspections of arms carried out by a Finnish and an African politician, neither of whom, so far as I know, has ever handled Semtex or held a gun. It may be difficult for them, looking at the interesting exhibits they will be shown, to reach any real conclusion. I am delighted that they will be allowed to do it, but I do not have much faith in the result.
I share the view of my noble friend Lord Tebbit that, until we know what has been promised to the IRA in return for this, in terms of what it wants in the criminal justice Bill, and a number of other issues of that sort, I shall not be happy that we have had a good deal. I shall watch with interest how far General de Chastelain is actually able to apply any serious "modalities of decommissioning", as they are described in the instrument.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, I certainly support the remarks made by my noble friend Lady Park. However, there is something that concerns both me and my noble friend Lord Tebbit about the two gentleman who are now going to look at the arms dumps. Indeed, can we go a little further in this respect? For example, are they going to inspect them every month, or every three months? Are they going to count the number of weapons inside these dumps to see whether there are 100 or 1,000 rifles, and so on, within—or, indeed, any semtex? Further, will any of these weapons be de-activated during the coming year? There is no point in starting off the process of inspection of umpteen arms dumps all over Northern Ireland if they are in exactly the same condition in 12 months' time. We want to see fewer weapons and de-activated weapons. This will ensure that they can never be used again in the future.
People in this country have gone through the strictest firearms legislation over recent years. Indeed, whether you want a shotgun certificate or a firearms certificate, you have to go through very complicated procedures, including getting a number of people to vouch that you are a reputable person and suitable to own a weapon. I suspect—and I am sure that this applies to everyone in practical terms—that there are a number of members of the IRA who do not keep their weapons in an underground dump but who keep them

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under the bed or in a cupboard. Where do those people stand? Do they have firearms certificates? Will they have their weapons de-activated? Alternatively, will they be required to hand them in to the nearest dump to enable them to be inspected from time to time by the officials so that we know that such weapons are not in the hands of members of the IRA in, so to speak, open countryside?
Like my noble friend Lord Tebbit, I thought that the Minister seemed to be looking through rose-tinted spectacles when outlining how this was going to happen. We have been so near the brink year in year out about decommissioning, yet it never seems to happen. Therefore, we should not be too excited until we actually see some form of decommissioning—and I mean decommissioning, not just storing arms for another 12 months—or the de-activating of each individual weapon so that such weaponry can never be used again.
Lord Carver: My Lords, there can be no doubt that these proposals will not produce a really effective inspection system that will ensure that all IRA weapons are beyond use. However, we should welcome them as a further step in the whole business of dealing with the situation in Northern Ireland. One advances with little creeping steps, and sometimes one then takes steps backwards. I welcome what is proposed, although I have sympathy with the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, and the noble Baroness, Lady Park. As a professional soldier, I know perfectly well that this is not an effective inspection system; but it is a further slight step forward towards maintaining and bringing about a situation in which those arms will not actively be used again.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, I welcome what my noble and gallant friend just said. In the light of some earlier remarks this afternoon, I have just one comment to make. Since 1994, we have had cease-fires with, admittedly, a number of breaches. This has been an enormous benefit for the great majority of people living in Northern Ireland. It has led to a very marked economic improvement. Therefore, anyone who breaks the cease-fire and returns to the violence of the past will be most unpopular and held, I would say, in execration by many people. That is all I wish to say.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, again, I am grateful for the comments that have been made in this short debate. It is worth emphasising two points. In their statement of 6th May, the IRA's leadership said that they would,
"initiate a process that would completely and verifiably put IRA arms beyond use".
They have never previously said such a thing. They also agreed to put in place within weeks a confidence-building measure,
"to confirm that our weapons remain secure",
which was a reference to the inspection of some arms dumps. Again, that is something to which they have never previously agreed.
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Of course one must be vigilant; of course one must be on one's guard; and of course one must not be too credulous. But the Government regard this as a significant step forward. The timing and modalities of the process of decommissioning are matters to be determined by General de Chastelain and the decommissioning commission. We believe that we have reached a significant moment and that we should capitalise on it. I am grateful for the support that has been expressed, especially from the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Front Benches, for the extension of the amnesty order, which is plainly a vital step in ensuring that decommissioning occurs. I commend the order to the House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Terrorism Bill
5.15 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Bassam of Brighton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Elton) in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Terrorism: interpretation]:
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Elton): Before I call Amendment No. 1, I must tell the Committee that, if it is agreed to, I shall be unable to call Amendments Nos. 2 to 8 inclusive.
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 7, leave out from ("use") to ("outside") in line 14 and insert ("of serious violence against persons, or the causing of serious damage to property, or the threat to use such violence or cause such damage, to intimidate or coerce a government, the public, or any section of the public, in order to promote political, religious or ideological objectives.
(2) In subsection (1)—

(a) "damage" includes any interference with electronic systems,

(b) "property" includes any public utility undertakings,

(c) "violence" includes the causing of personal injury,

(d) "use" includes use").

The noble Lord said: This amendment, and those grouped with it, concern the definition of the word "terrorism". As we know, the Bill does not create an offence of terrorism in itself, but the definition is the key that allows the police, the courts, the Government, and so on, to use the special anti-terrorist measures provided by the legislation, some of which contain reference to offences which were thought necessary to their proper operation. Therefore, from the point of view of offences, but also in a much wider sense, the definition is vital to the success of the Bill.
It is most important for the definition to be correct. Apart from the offences, it is what triggers the additional powers for the police, the courts and others, which are provided in the Bill. Judging by the Second Reading debate, I believe that we are all agreed that those powers should not be triggered except in the case of genuine terrorist outrages, because they run against our normal expectation of the freedom of the individual, human rights, and so on. So the definition is of the first importance.
There has been a great deal of discussion about the definition because it is very difficult to formulate one in legal language that will stand up to the pressures placed upon it. The discussions in another place about what the proper definition should be continued right up until the end of its debates on the Bill, with the Minister saying at intervals that he was willing to consider the arguments. Therefore, I do not believe that the Government regard the definition as being set in concrete at this point, or that they would necessarily go to the stake for it—provided, of course, that we can convince them of the desirability of modifying the definition.
The definition in the Bill does not follow the lines recommended by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in his report on the situation, which forms the foundation of the legislation; nor is it in line with that recommended by Mr John Rowe QC, who reported on these matters. Indeed, it does not follow the definition to be found in the Government's own consultation document. The responses to the consultation document supported the earlier formulations as developed in the report of the noble and learned Lord, Lloyd Lloyd, and in the views held by Mr Rowe and others. It was rather a surprise to note that the definition did not follow those formulations accurately. So far we do not seem to have been given a clear explanation of why the Government changed their mind in that respect.
This afternoon I propose to address the points of interest with regard to the definition comparatively briefly to give the Minister and others the opportunity to outline the Government's case and to allow us to discuss the matter as fully as possible. I hope that that will enable us to achieve wider agreement on all sides of the Chamber before we reach the later stages of the Bill. As I say, I recognise that it is difficult to arrive at a wholly satisfactory definition.
Amendment No. 1, which stands in my name, reproduces the definition of "terrorism" as proposed by Mr John Rowe QC in a letter written after the Second Reading—and obviously after having seen the Bill—to myself and to a number of noble Lords including the Minister. Since I tabled the amendment I have had the opportunity to discuss the matter with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. He told me that he much regretted that an unbreakable engagement this evening prevents him attending this debate as he would have wished. He told me that I could inform the Committee that he thinks that Mr Rowe's draft is an improvement on his own suggestions. The noble and learned Lord believes that the definition in the Bill is seriously defective. While I
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do not in any way seek to tie him to every word that I say, I believe that he and I are in general agreement as regards the problems concerning the definition as it appears in the Bill.
The most important difference between the definition in the Bill and Mr Rowe's formulation in Amendment No. 1 is the omission in the Bill's definition of the concept of terror, of placing the public in fear or—as stated in Amendment No. 1—
"to intimidate or coerce a government, the public, or any section of the public".
Most of us believe that terror is of the essence of terrorism. The dictionary definitions all seem to contain that concept. Their definitions of "terrorism" refer to the use of terror and fear to try to influence governments, public policy and public action. This is not just a case of a semantic disagreement; it is more important than that. The omission of this concept from the definition extends it much more widely. That is why the definition in the Bill has given rise to much concern that it would cover all kinds of legitimate protests, even, for instance, a political argument in a pub which led to an exchange of blows.
Each of us can, no doubt, think of groups of protestors with whom we agree and others with whom we disagree. We can all deplore violence of any kind in support of both causes with which we agree and those with which we disagree. However, laws exist to combat such violence and it is going too far to brand all such violence as terrorism, which the Bill potentially does. That is the most important difficulty as regards the definition in the Bill.
I turn to the second difference, which is much more minor. Mr Rowe's formulation uses the phrase, "serious damage to property" rather than "serious violence to property". I consider that the phrase "serious damage to property" constitutes better English, but I am not so sure what is the legal difference, if any, between "serious damage to property" and "serious violence to property". However, it strikes me that "damage" is wider than "violence". If, for example, one entered a building and turned all the taps on, that is not a violent action of itself but it could cause an immense amount of damage to the building. There are numerous other, perhaps less homely, examples that one could mention in the context of terrorism.
The third difference is much more important. Unlike the definition in Amendment No. 1, the Government's formulation in the Bill does not specifically include, "interference with electronic systems". I believe that we shall return to so-called "cyber terrorism" throughout the Committee stage. It is important that the definition we are discussing should include cyber terrorism. The only question that arises is whether it needs to be included in the specific legal wording. I rely on the legal expertise of Mr Rowe and the noble and learned Lord in thinking that it is desirable that a phrase of this kind should be included in the definition.
I do not think that there is any doubt in any of our minds at present about the potential dangers of cyber terrorism. If there was, the "love hug" and its effect on

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the parliamentary system a few days ago should have reminded us of those dangers. As far as we know that was not the work of terrorists but of amateurs, relatively speaking. Cyber terrorism and the use of electronic devices to damage systems in pursuit of political and ideological objectives is taken extremely seriously in the United States. The director of the Cyber-Terrorism Taskforce, who is advising Congress in the United States on this matter, explained the other day that the first official terrorist use of what he called "offensive information operations" occurred two years ago when the Tamil Tigers disrupted Sri Lankan embassy communications in Washington, Ottawa and Korea. As I say, this threat is taken extremely seriously in the United States.
Experts from the Home Office are this week attending a conference in Paris for three days, with other nations in the Group of Eight, to debate ways of harmonising computer crime law in case criminals attempt to use viruses of the kind I have mentioned to attack networks. That conference is, apparently, primarily concerned with crime rather than terrorism, but the effect of such action is the same. No doubt lessons can be learnt at that conference with regard to laws on terrorism as well as laws on crime. Anything that the Minister can tell us about the conference and the lessons to be learnt in terms of this Bill would be valuable.
The fourth difference between the two definitions I am discussing is that the definition in Amendment No. 1 specifically includes a reference to "public utility undertakings". Strictly speaking, this may not be necessary in a legal sense. I think that it is desirable to make the matter clear in case there should be any argument, but I accept that it is a less important difference than some of the others that I have mentioned.
The fifth difference is that the Amendment No. 1 definition includes "the causing of personal injury". That could be taken to refer to, among other things, punishment beatings. There was some discussion about this issue at Second Reading. It is extremely important that punishment beatings in Northern Ireland, which have been practised until recently in a very vicious fashion indeed—by both sides, I hasten to add; not only by terrorists on one side—are seen as terrorist actions, which indeed they are. Punishment beatings by terrorists are intended to control sections of the population—often to control sections of their own population, as it were; their own side of the divide. Punishment beatings are a part of terrorist activity and should be included in the definition.
One can argue that it may not be necessary to define them specifically, but I believe that it is desirable to do so, as do Mr Rowe and the noble and learned Lord. In all these ways, the definition given in Amendment No. 1 is preferable to the definition given in the Bill.
Included in this group of amendments are a number of possible variations of the definition which have been proposed by myself and by others, notably by the Liberal Democrats and by the noble Lord, Lord
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Beaumont. They cover some of the points to which I have referred. I shall respond to points made later in the debate, but obviously I support the elements of their definitions which are similar to mine.
It is desirable that the definition should be as good as it possibly can be in order to ensure that it will stand up to legal attack and legal examination in the courts in the future. It is also necessary in order that there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that we are not trying to go further than what we all understand by "terrorism"; that we are seeking to ensure that the powers set out in the Bill are available to the police and to the courts in terrorist cases. I beg to move.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Goodhart: Our Amendment No. 3 adds a further element to this interesting and important discussion about how terrorism should be defined. It is worth the Committee taking some time to discuss these issues and to see how far we can get towards a consensus. That may enable us to come back at a later stage with a more effectively targeted definition.
We believe that the definition in the Bill as it now stands is in some respects too wide and in other respects too narrow. We believe that it is too narrow because it requires the relevant terrorist acts to be,
"for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause".
We do not think that motive is a necessary or desirable part of the definition. A motive for terrorism could be none of these; it could be criminal. For example, a group of criminals could get hold of radioactive material and threaten to let off a crude bomb which would scatter it around an inhabited area such as central London unless the Government buys them off by submitting to blackmail.
Criminal terrorism is fairly rare, but it certainly happens. For example, it plainly happens in Columbia, where the drug cartels go in extensively for terrorism. It could happen in many other parts of the world and there is no reason to suppose that it could not happen in the United Kingdom.
We could, of course, deal with that particular point simply by adding the word "criminal" to the words "political, religious or ideological"—but why bother to do that? If acts are being committed which involve deliberate violence being directed against the public or against a government in order to intimidate, why does it matter what the motive is? It simply adds an unnecessary element which has to be proved before a conviction can happen. It possibly opens up the prospect that someone could be charged with a criminal offence because of a political motive and could then claim that he should be acquitted because his motive was not political but ideological. That I think is the kind of "logic-chopping" argument that any definition should seek to avoid.
But the definition is also too wide. First, it does not require violence. I believe that violence is, in most circumstances, an essential element of terrorism, with the exception of cyber terrorism. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Cope: cyber terrorism is clearly

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something which has to be taken very seriously. We could well end up with something far more damaging than the "love bug", which turned out to be a serious nuisance but not a major economic threat.
Under the Government's definition, a long strike by refuse collectors could create a serious risk to the health of the public. It could, therefore, come within the Government's definition of "terrorism". But that plainly would not be regarded as "terrorism" in any normal use of the word.
Secondly, where the Government's definition refers to violence, it does not require that violence to be unlawful. The actions taken on behalf of Her Majeity's Government and other states in Kosovo and Serbia last year involved serious violence against the person and property; it was, unquestionably, for the purpose of advancing a political cause. It therefore seems to me that that is plainly within the Bill's definition of "terrorism", even though the violence was lawful under the law of the United Kingdom. Plainly some change to the definition—which could be done simply by describing the violence as "unlawful"—is necessary to ensure that we do not end up with that kind of absurdity.
Thirdly, under the Bill the definition of "terrorism" can be triggered by too low a level of violence against property. It has been suggested that the action of Greenpeace in pulling up GM crops might fall within the Bill's definition. I do not think that that is so; it would be difficult to regard that kind of violence as falling within a definition of "serious violence". But the actions in Whitehall and adjacent areas on May Day could certainly be regarded as involving serious violence to property, although I believe that they fell short of the level of violence required to constitute terrorism.
I do not accept the arguments from some quarters that violence against property can never of itself amount to terrorism. Economic terrorism is plainly possible. Indeed, a high proportion of IRA terrorism has been for economic reasons. The bombs in the City of London and in Canary Wharf in recent years were primarily intended to cause economic damage, although, sadly, they caused some loss of human life and injury.
A terrorist campaign involving putting the London Underground out of action or destroying a number of the Thames bridges in London would cause serious damage to the economic well-being of London and would be properly regarded as terrorism even if steps were successfully taken to ensure that it was done with no loss of life or serious injury. So, for example, would attacks on the National Grid. As has already been said, cyber-terrorism holds enormous prospects for economic damage.
I am not convinced that our definition is the best that can be achieved—I think further improvements could be made to it—but it does include what I believe is the core definition of terrorism as far as possible and little, if anything, beyond it.
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That core definition seems to me to involve these factors. First, there must be serious and unlawful violence, extending that definition of violence to include cyber-terrorism but not actions such as strikes. Secondly, that violence must be directed against the public or a section of the public. Thirdly, where the violence in question is violence against property, it must be at a level which causes serious economic damage to the country as a whole or to a significant part of the country such as London.
Lord Avebury: The examples that the noble Lord gave such as attacks on the London Underground or attacks on the bridges would surely be serious criminal offences under our existing law.
Lord Goodhart: Of course they would be serious criminal offences under our existing law. However, that is not a sufficient reason for saying they should not be regarded as terrorism. The essence of terrorism is not merely that they are serious offences but that they are serious offences directed against the public either in terms of causing physical threats to sections of the public or in causing serious economic damage. That is, for instance, why the powers that are given to control terrorist organisations may he required in cases where the terrorism in question is economic terrorism of this kind.
I believe that our definition in Amendment No. 3 is better than the definition in the Bill. The amended version moved by the noble Lord, Lord Cope, was indeed an improvement on that in the Bill, but that in itself is capable of improvement, particularly in two respects. First, it includes what I regard as an unnecessary reference to the motive for the terrorism. Secondly, the terrorism is once again triggered by too low a test of violence to property. For example, within the Conservative definition, road protesters sabotaging construction machinery by setting it on fire could be committing acts of serious violence for a political or ideological motive and would therefore come within that definition, though I do not think it is appropriate in those circumstances that they should do so. That is certainly criminal damage but it is not damage which causes severe harm to the economy and therefore is not, in my opinion, appropriate to be described as terrorism.
That is an explanation of our views. I await with interest what the Government and other speakers have to say on this matter.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: The proposed definition of terrorism in the Bill is wider than that employed in the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989. That Act stated that,
"'terrorism' means the use of violence for political ends, and includes any use of violence for the purpose of putting the public or any section of the public in fear".
The new definition in the Terrorism Bill will apply to terrorism connected to matters in Northern Ireland, international terrorism and, for the first time, actions by domestic groups in Great Britain. Additionally, the

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purpose necessary for actions to be defined as terrorist has been widened beyond the merely political to include religious and ideological causes. The definition of violence has also been extended to serious violence against any person or property.
The definition goes even further in that it also includes acts which create a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public. This is not qualified by the need to show that violence has been used to intimidate or coerce a government, the public or a section of the public. It also includes action taken for the benefit of a proscribed organisation. There are real concerns that, for example, road protesters and those opposed to genetically modified crops will be among those whose activities are branded as terrorist, whereas, whether they are right or wrong, they are clearly at a lower level than that.
The definition has also removed the distinction usually made in the criminal law between acts which injure people and actions which damage property. I do not go quite as far as those who think that property is theft, but I do go as far as those who think theologically that all private property is lent and is not absolute property to be disposed of as anyone wants. Therefore, I think there is an important distinction to be made between the public property about which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, has been talking, and private property. We might explore a little in this debate at some stage.
The rationale behind such a distinction is the deterrence of acts which threaten life. Thus crimes that injure or endanger life normally carry higher penalties than those that damage property. No such distinction is made in the definition of terrorism adopted by the present Bill. Therefore, there is a risk, which must be taken seriously, that there will be no incentive under the scheme of the Bill for a terrorist to choose targets which do not endanger other people.
One of the principal concerns about the Bill's definition of terrorism in relation to the application of human rights standards is that it is so broad as to lack certainty. The definition of terrorism in the Bill is crucial because it forms the basis for the application of much of the remainder of the Bill. Since the consequences of the definition are so great, it is important that the scope of the definition should be clearly ascertainable and justifiable so as to ensure the credibility of the legislation and its enforcement mechanisms.
In analysing the proposals contained in the Terrorism Bill against the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights, it is important to bear in mind that hitherto consideration of the laws of terrorism by the court has been concerned with particular types of political violence. The broadening of the definition of terrorism to include actions undertaken for religious or ideological causes and the inclusion as terrorist organisations of domestic groups is likely to put the proposed terrorist laws to even more stringent examination under the convention, both at
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the Court of Human Rights and later in domestic courts when the main provisions of the Human Rights Act 1998 come into force in October 2000.
This is a very, very important definition. There was a great deal of debate about it in another place which, as has been said, was really indeterminate in the end and no one, even the Government, appears to be absolutely certain as to what they want the answers to be. I hope my amendments in this area are helpful. I very much look forward to hearing the debate at this stage and hope that some kind of consensus may arise which will lead to us having a more focused debate at Report stage than was had in another place or than we are likely to have this evening.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I find myself in the position of agreeing with all of the speeches made so far. All of us are seeking to, in the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in his report,
"strike the right balance between the needs of security and the rights and liberties of the individual".
That is one of the noble and learned Lord's four principles. All of us are struggling, as must the Government and their advisers have struggled, to find a definition that is not over-inclusive, in that it hits at a wider target than is really necessary, or under-inclusive, in not including conduct which deserves to be stigmatised as terrorism and made unlawful, subjected to severe sanctions and conferring on the police and the security service necessary but very wide powers. That is why all of us are concerned to achieve reasonable legal certainty in the definition of what constitutes terrorism.
My noble friend Lord Goodhart explained very fully the reasons why we have put forward the amendment and so I shall not take the time of the Committee by adding very much to what he said. But I should like to make one or two points. First, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Merlyn-Rees, who once said in relation to Section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911—perhaps it was Lord Franks who said it first—that it was a blunderbuss. The noble Lord, Lord Merlyn-Rees, said that it should be replaced by an Armalite rifle. It is important that the definition in the Bill of terrorism should be more like an Armalite rifle than a blunderbuss. We are concerned that in some respects there is unnecessary vagueness and over-inclusiveness.
There is a great deal to commend the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. We can see advantages in each other's definitions and are searching towards a consensus definition. No one has achieved a perfect definition. Amendment No. 1, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, is a useful amendment. Its disadvantage is that it retains the requirement for terrorist action to be political, religious or ideological in motivation, which may well be problematic, and it also requires that the threat of violence is,
"to intimidate or coerce a government, the public, or any section of the public".

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That has the advantage of securing some kind of proportionality requirement and is modelled on the recommendation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick.
Amendment No. 5, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, restricts the application of the Bill to,
"unlawful action which is intended to intimidate or coerce a government, the public or any section of the public".
That is in line with the review of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I prefer the amendment in our names because what constitutes intimidation or coercion is very unclear and could also be unnecessarily restrictive. Amendment No. 7, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, restricting the application of terrorist legislation to what he describes as,
"serious violence against property which endangers the life of, or risks serious injury to, another",
would exclude much economic sabotage or terrorist activity directed against infrastructure, including cyber-terrorism, as my noble friend Lord Goodhart indicated.
We have difficulties with those amendments for those reasons. We all seek a fair balance and we are not satisfied that the Government's wording is sufficiently inclusive and in some respects it hits too wide.
Lord Taylor of Giryfe: I hope that the Committee will be able to come up with a consensus and a clear definition in this matter. I should like the Minister to say a few words about our international obligations in connection with the definition of terrorism with regard to both the European Court and any other international court which deals with these matters. I ask that because I am reasonably familiar with a case, which is outstanding, in Greenock sheriff court. Three ladies of deep religious conviction and associated with a pacifist religious group took a boat, went out to a Trident submarine sitting in Holy Loch, obtained access to the submarine and promptly put £40,000 of computer equipment into the Holy Loch. That was their protest.
Under the definitions in the Bill it would appear that they would be guilty of action against property. However, that is not what the sheriff of Greenock sheriff court decided. She was led evidence of the findings of an international court which deliberated on this matter and argued that since Trident is an offence against humanity they were quite justified in taking the action they took because Trident in itself is illegal except when applied in self-defence. The three ladies were acquitted and under Scottish law they cannot be retried. They were acquitted on the grounds that their action, which in the Bill's definition would be an offence, did not constitute an offence because they were avoiding a greater offence against humanity.
I am sorry that I have not given my noble friend notice of this matter but it is an interesting case. It arises from the issues we have been discussing concerning what is an offence against property. I
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would be happy if the Minister could give us some guidance on the implications of this matter as it is affected by European or international jurisdiction.
Lord Hylton: At Second Reading there was general agreement, with the exception, of course, of the government, that the Bill is too widely drafted and perhaps nowhere more so than in its definition of terrorism. I should therefore like to ask the Government whether they have studied the other current definitions that exist in other jurisdictions. In particular, have they examined how those have worked out in practice and are they too wide or too narrow?
I turn to Amendment No. 1. It is vitally important that the definition should establish that the person in question has an intention to commit terrorism—in legal language, that he has the mens rea.> Amendment No. 1 seems to wish to do that by bringing in the words "intimidate or coerce". I notice that similar words occur again in Amendment No. 5.
I move on to the following words, "a government". I would prefer to see in their place a phrase such as, "the institutions of democratic government". That wording was put forward by the Northern Ireland human rights commission, a semi-statutory body.
The noble Lord, Lord Cope, rightly pointed out that the phrase, "serious damage to property", is almost certainly preferable to the Government's phrase of "violence" to property. Perhaps I may add that, as drafted, the Bill refers to any property anywhere in the world, regardless of whether that property is valuable or important.
The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was right to use the words "unlawful violence" in Amendment No. 3 because we do not want to include, for example, a strike held by nurses. Furthermore, he and others were, in my view, correct to mention economic damage and to stress that it should be "serious" economic damage.
I conclude by expressing the hope that a consensus will be reached by the time we reach Report stage and that we shall end up with a generally agreed definition.
6 p.m.
Lord Avebury: I think we shall be in serious difficulty if we retain the definition in Clause 1 as it stands. My noble friend Lord Goodhart touched on this when he pointed out the distinction between acts that might be committed by a terrorist against the London Underground or the bridges crossing the river Thames, on the one hand, and the kind of violence against property exhibited during the May Day demonstrations, on the other. No one in their right mind would suggest that the person who daubed the statue of Sir Winston Churchill in Parliament Square should have been convicted of an act of terrorism. In my opinion it was bad enough that he was sent to prison at all for an offence of daubing graffiti, but it certainly was not what an ordinary member of the public would consider to be a serious act of violence.

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The difficulty with the definition lies in the fact that, in the law as it now stands, that phrase is not well understood. I am advised that it occurs in Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 in which powers have been given to the police to search people without the need for reasonable grounds if an act of serious violence is feared. The problem with the provision is that it has never been tested in the courts. For that reason, people who are searched under the terms of that provision do not think it would be easy to go to court and challenge the interpretation of the police by saying that what was contemplated was not serious violence within the meaning of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.
The Government need to convince noble Lords that the phrase would be easily interpreted by the courts and that it would not be applied in cases where common sense would dictate that a person should be charged with a lesser offence.
Another interesting point that noble Lords should bear in mind when deciding on the definition is the incompatibility between Clause 1 and what is proposed under Clause 59(2)(e) where reference is made to a person who commits the offence of inciting terrorism overseas. The essential element of that offence is that the act to be incited should, if committed in England or Wales, constitute one of the offences listed in subsection (2) of Clause 59. That includes, in subsection (e),
"an offence under section 1(2) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971 (endangering life by damaging property)".
The test of a terrorist act overseas is far less rigid than that which we shall apply in the United Kingdom. I would prefer to see the two definitions aligned. It seems to me to be perfectly reasonable that a person should be charged with an offence of terrorism if the damage to property is such as to cause loss of life or to threaten to cause loss of life. I do not know whether the examples given by my noble friend fall into that category.
It could be argued that, in a case where someone damaged the National Grid so that electricity was suspended in a certain area and people dependent on artificial lungs had their lives put in jeopardy, an offence of terrorism might apply. However, to include such a general definition of damage to property as now stands in the clause is extremely dangerous.
That is especially the case when one considers the term "ideology". That, too, is undefined. I do not know what the Government mean by "ideology". Perhaps they will explain it. For example, let us suppose that one's ideological belief is that housing is an absolute right, that property is theft, and that one is entitled to break into a house owned by the local authority and take possession of it. Are we to say here that that is an act of terrorism? We may disagree with the act—I do not like squatters—but to pretend that such an offence should be included in a definition of terrorism would be taking things much too far.
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Whether we accept the definition proposed by my noble friend, which personally I think provides the right answer, or that put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, the fact is that the definition in the Bill is grossly unsatisfactory and needs to be amended.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: We have had an extremely helpful and useful debate this afternoon. I am very impressed by the contributions made by all Members of the House because they have been delivered so constructively and thoughtfully. As I work through my remarks I shall try to deal with as many of the points that have been raised under the various amendments as I can. I hope that noble Lords will give me the time needed to do that, because I believe that this is the most important area of discussion and debate on the legislation before us.
The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, was right to remind us that we must ensure that we deal with the Armalite rather than the blunderbuss. That was a helpful reminder of how we need to consider this whole debate: how wide should we make the definition and how should we narrow it down at certain points? That offers the parameters for the debate and illustrates the difficulties we face in getting this just right. I am grateful, too, for the sympathy many noble Lords have expressed as regards the difficulty of the exercise.
Perhaps I may make a number of opening remarks about definition and then go through the various points that have been raised. If I repeat some of the remarks I made in the debate on Second Reading, then I apologise to noble Lords. However, I am sure that some of those comments will bear repetition. First, I shall explain the consideration behind the Government's definition, which draws heavily on the existing definition in the prevention of terrorism Act. That defines terrorism as the use of violence for political ends, including putting the public or any section of the public in fear. That definition has stood the test of time. It has not changed since the prevention of terrorism Act was first introduced in 1974. It has, in its rough and ready way, worked well. We took the view that the definition should be changed only where it was necessary to do so.
Secondly, we considered carefully the definition proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in his report. The new elements introduced were the application of the definition to all forms of terrorism; the raising of the threshold to "serious violence"; the inclusion of threats as well as acts; and the inclusion of additional "qualifying motivations"—so social and ideological as well as political objectives were included; and the requirement that, for an action to be classed as terrorist, it must be done to intimidate or coerce a government or the public. The noble and learned Lord proposed also that the definition should cover,
"the terrorist who without using violence sets out to disrupt vital computer installations such as air traffic systems thereby causing great danger to life".

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We agreed with the noble and learned Lord on most of his conclusions and we believe that our definition covers virtually all of those points.
The noble and learned Lord offered a helpful reminder to us at Second Reading. He said that there was great difficulty in finding a satisfactory definition. He went on:
"Indeed, I was unable to do so and I suspect that none of us will succeed … [but] we must do our best".—[Official Report, 6/4/00; col. 1444.]
That is the spirit in which we should conduct our debates as we work through the Bill.
Thirdly, as now, there is no terrorism offence linked with the definition. What the definition does is to trigger the availability to the police and others of certain powers and offences. We need to understand it in that context. The role of the definition is to set the parameters within which the powers and offences under the Bill may operate.
Fourthly, and importantly, we took the view that it was essential that the definition should cover all the ground that experience over the past 25 or more years, and our assessment of future threats, suggest should be covered—so that the police and other security agencies always have at their disposal the powers that they need to combat terrorism. In working up the new definition we consulted the police and other agencies closely and took careful account of their views. While we of course recognise the importance of the circumstances being proportionate in which the additional offences and powers under the Bill are available, we should be failing in our duty if the definition of terrorism did not extend to the full range of contexts where security advice and experience suggest they are needed. A judgment has to be made based on security and other considerations. The fact that some of the amendments before the Committee seek to limit the scope of the definition, while others seek to extend it, indicates the complexities involved.
Fifthly, and finally, while the Government would never be so complacent as to suggest that there is no chance that the definition could be improved upon—which is why we have been grateful to consider alternatives that have been proposed—we continue to believe that the definition on the face of the Bill is, roughly speaking, the right one. We believe that it balances correctly the need to ensure that the definition is only as wide as it needs to be with the need to ensure that the police are confident that they will always have at their disposal the powers and offences that they need to fight terrorism.
I now turn to points raised in relation to particular amendments, and, first, to those of the noble Lord, Lord Cope. We believe that the amendments tabled—
6.15 p.m.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Before the Minister turns to amendments tabled by other noble Lords, perhaps I may ask him a question relating to Clause 1(1) as it now stands, which causes me a problem as regards what he rightly referred to as proportionality. The problem is this. On the Government's definition,
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paragraphs (a) and (b) of Clause 1(1) refer to conduct which does not necessarily give rise to a serious risk to the public at large. In the words of paragraph (a) it is conduct that,
"involves serious violence against any person or property",
and in (b),
"endangers the life of any person".
Then there is the word "or", and paragraph (c) refers to conduct which,
"creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public".
So only in paragraph (c) does one come for the first time to the idea of conduct that threatens the public at large. Is there not a problem with a definition of terrorism that triggers later in the Bill the use of very strong counter-terrorist powers to combat action that does not give rise to a serious threat to public wellbeing? Does it not create a potential problem under the European Convention on Human Rights when it comes to using those very wide and necessary powers to deal with conduct which does not threaten the public or a section of the public?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: The noble Lord raises an interesting point. We have taken the view that the Bill is compatible with the convention and that serious violence against personal property or action that endangers the life of any person can in its outcome create a serious risk to the health and safety of the public or a section of the public. That is the important part of the definition and it is on that that we rely. I shall study the noble Lord's comments and reflect on them, but we are content that the provisions are compatible with ECHR considerations.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he reflect also on the fact that the Goodhart amendment is focused throughout on,
"directed against the public or a section of the public".
That is why that amendment ensures proportionality. Will the Minister reflect on that point when reading the debate?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I happily undertake to reflect on it. I make no promises in that regard. I should like to deal with the points as we work through the Bill.
Perhaps I may express some of the concerns that we have with the alternative definition suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Cope. It provided a useful starting-point for debate. The noble Lord talked at some length about the use of the word "damage", not "violence", in connection with property. Mr John Rowe, the annual reviewer of the operation of the prevention of terrorism Act and the emergency provisions Act has suggested that "damage" is the more usual word to use in connection with property. We recognise that, but prefer the term "violence" because it is, we consider, more appropriate to the sort of conduct which is normally considered to be terrorism. Action which seriously damages property but does not involve serious violence—for example, graffiti, to take up the

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point made by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—might seriously damage a building and deserve punishment, but we are not persuaded that in itself it reaches the threshold to be considered terrorism. Therein lies one difficulty with that definition.
As to the injection of the words "intimidation" or,
"coercion of a government or the public element",
we consider those proposals to be undesirable. In most cases we think it would be unnecessary, as most terrorist acts are clearly done with the intention of causing fear or getting a government to change their policy on a particular issue. But cases could occur where it might not be obvious whether that was the case—for example, the bombing of an animal laboratory at night. In those circumstances it could not necessarily be safely argued that that was done to intimidate the public, as they would not be present; nor could it be safely argued that the intention was to coerce the government as the primary focus. Presumably, it would be to disrupt the work of the laboratory and the related commercial concern. Yet we would take the view that such actions are forms of terrorism. Similar considerations might apply in connection with a terrorist assassination attack. Depending on the victim, it might again be unsafe to assume that the intention was to intimidate the public, or government. Again, the target might be a commercial concern.
We presume that subsection (2)(a) is designed to catch interference with computer systems. But the formula "electronic systems" is very broad and would probably catch other systems perhaps not meant to fall within the ambit of the definition—for instance, CCTV systems or possibly even a public address system.
We recognise the concerns that underlie this amendment, particularly in the wake of the recent so-called "Love Bug". Subsection (1)(c) of Clause 1 is designed to cover any action (including, therefore, any computer-related action) which creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public. The Bill already covers the effects of some computer interference, but to go further and catch all computer interference would be a significant step which we would not take lightly and it would not be without its difficulties. Having said that, clearly this is an important issue, and I should like to reflect further on whether something more specific is required in the Bill. I shall advise the House of the outcome of our deliberations at Report stage. The noble Lord raises an important and significant issue.
The amendment provides in subsection (2)(c) that "violence" includes personal injury. We believe that that is also unnecessary as "violence" carries within it the concept of personal injury. Although it is ultimately a matter for the courts, we expect so-called punishment beatings to be caught by the phrase "serious violence". It is certainly not our intention to exclude such actions by raising the threshold to serious violence. The Committee will note that we have a
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number of concerns about this amendment. I hope that the noble Lord will reflect on the points that I have made and not press his amendment.
I turn next to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and in so doing I shall pick up some of the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley. At this stage the Government are not attracted by the amendment tabled by the noble Lord and his noble friends. We believe that the insertion of the term "unlawful" is an undesirable addition. We accept that the vast majority of terrorist acts are also unlawful: clearly, bombings, shootings and so on are criminal activities. Terrorists are criminals. But we can conceive of circumstances in which an act occurs, or even violence under the noble Lord's definition, that may not be unlawful. We believe that the definition would extend also to those acts. For example, given that the noble Lord's definition of "violence" includes interference with the functioning of electronic equipment, it is hypothetically possible that an employee may interfere with CCTV cameras, or even computers (with which we believe that part of the amendment is concerned). Depending on the employee's role in the firm and the nature of the interference, it is conceivable that that action may not be unlawful.
Take the example of subsection (1)(c) which deals with actions—under Clause 120 they include omissions—which create a serious risk to the health or safety of the public. An employee may deliberately omit to add a chemical to the sewerage system with the effect that public health is put at risk. Depending on the nature of his action and contract, that act may not be unlawful. We believe that it is wrong to create a situation in which a terrorist might escape prosecution on what would effectively be a technicality.
Lord Goodhart: How does the Minister deal with the Kosovo problem? In that situation the Government and many members of the Armed Forces would be engaged in acts which, technically, would come within the definition of terrorism in this Bill?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: That is a useful issue to raise. Understatement always helps! Obviously, this is a matter to which we have given careful consideration. We do not believe that those actions come within the definition.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: The Kosovo problem, as it has been described, is a very real one. The noble Lord will recall that in my speech at Second Reading I referred to remarks made by my right honourable friend Tom King in another place in the course of debates on this Bill. My right honourable friend pointed out that during the Gulf war, when he was Secretary of State for Defence, he launched considerable violence, in the form of marine commandos and a number of extremely fierce aircraft, against other people. He believed that as Secretary of State for Defence he and those in the RAF and Royal Marines engaged in that action were involved in serious violence which was intended to coerce

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governments and so on. It seems to me, as it did to my right honourable friend, that that is an extremely serious problem. It may be that the Minister has had time to reflect on it a little further and is now able to make a contribution to this particular difficulty.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: The noble Lord is very helpful. I said that I did not believe that our Armed Forces acting in the course of their duties would fall within the definition. The general principle in law is that statutes do not bind the Crown, unless by express provision or necessary implication. That covers the military and others in the service of the Crown. With one minor and fairly technical exception in Clause 118, the offences in the Terrorism Bill do not apply to Crown servants. I believe that that little difficulty is dealt with.
Lord Avebury: Perhaps I may pursue the matter a little further. The noble Lord assumes that the example of Kosovo is the only one where the lawfulness of the action is called into question. In English law there is the doctrine of necessity which was invoked in a case involving the hijacking of an aircraft of Sudan Airways. Although on the surface it was an act of terrorism, the defendants pleaded—I believe that the matter was successfully referred back to the House of Lords—that the appalling conditions in Iraq had caused them to take the step of hijacking the aircraft which allowed them to come to London. That defence was given serious consideration in the Court of Appeal and referred back to the House of Lords. If a person argued that he acted through "duress of circumstances"—that was the expression used by the Court of Appeal—according to the doctrine of necessity he would be acting lawfully. That set of circumstances is not taken into consideration in the definition.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that that might be a defence in any future case. It is hard to foresee those circumstances. I understand and appreciate the virtue of the doctrine of necessity, and why it is argued, but the case that the noble Lord describes is effectively a situation of war. In those circumstances I believe that rather different rules apply.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: The Minister suggested that Clause 118, which exempts Crown servants, might assist in this process. That clause refers entirely to Parts III and IV of the Bill and provides that,
"The Secretary of State may make regulations providing for sections 15 to 23 and 39 to apply to persons in the public service of the Crown".
The only provision that provides an exemption is in Clause 19. That is extremely limited and is concerned with the disclosure of information to do with financial offences. I do not believe that Clause 118 provides any assistance to the noble Lord in this particular case.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: As to that issue, my understanding is that it is the only provision in the Bill which does not cover the normal rule. The important point is that it is an exception clause.
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If the point of the noble Lord's amendment is to try to ensure that action taken in connection with a legitimate trade dispute is not caught, we are not sure that the amendment does the trick in any case. The term "unlawful" also covers torts and breaches of contract as well as criminal acts, and strikers can commit such acts in the course of industrial action. Indeed, they may also commit criminal offences such as obstructing the highway. So not only could the amendment prove to be overly restrictive, it might not fully achieve what it sets out to do.
We are also concerned that the definition proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is triggered where violence is directed against the public or a section of the public. I am aware that the limbs at (a) and (b) of the definition provide that this phrase covers circumstances where death, serious injury or a threat to the health of the public is caused, or where there is a threat to national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country. I have to say to noble Lords that at the very least such an approach puts an enormous strain on the phrase "directed against the public". I can think of examples of acts which would be caught through the limbs at (a) and (b) but which would in no ordinary sense of' the phrase he directed against the public—for instance, the assassination of an individual politician, or something like the bombing of the Grand Hotel during the Conservative Party conference. In both cases the Government would be more obviously the target than the public. Moreover, the way the formula is constructed means, I think, that other actions are excluded which the public might be more likely to feel were directed against them or at least actions which more directly affected them. I am thinking here of actions, for instance, against furriers, or sporting events like the Grand National. The bombing or a serious attack on such interests could impact more directly on some sections of the public than some of the actions caught by the formula as it stands. But they are not caught as I read it. We consider this to be a fairly fundamental weakness.
The amendment also provides that all interference with the functioning of electronic equipment, even if no damage is caused to the equipment, is caught within the definition, although the ensuing limbs at (a) and (b) limit the circumstances in which it applies. The formula chosen is very wide and may catch activity that it is not intended to catch—for instance, tampering with CCTV cameras. And we are not sure that the syntax of the amendment quite works here. However, setting aside those essentially technical points, as I indicated, we have considerable sympathy with the concerns underlying the proposal. Recent events have demonstrated the effect that computer viruses can have on a whole range of interests and systems.
More fundamentally, we have significant concerns about the ground covered by limbs (a) and (b) of the amendment. In particular, we are concerned that it is too narrow. As I have already touched upon, our reading is that bombs or other attacks which seriously damaged, or even destroyed, commercial or private

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interests would not be caught within this definition if there were no risk to life or the health of the public, or if there were no threat to national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country or part of the country. I think that such a distinction is wrong in policy terms because bombs or other attacks which destroy animal laboratories, synagogues or symbolic buildings such as perhaps Stormont should be caught even if the perpetrators undertake the attacks carefully at night so that there is no serious risk to life. To me, and I think to many others, such attacks would constitute terrorism but the definition in the amendment would not necessarily cover them.
I also think that this part of the amendment is wrong on pragmatic grounds. As we have already observed, one of the main purposes of the definition is to indicate when anti-terrorist powers may be used. The police view is that it could seriously hinder their operational effectiveness in combating terrorism if they could only use their powers once they were persuaded that there was a risk to life or the equivalent. Valuable time could be lost before sufficient intelligence or evidence emerged to confirm that life was likely to be threatened and the police ability to respond would be reduced accordingly. There is no reason, we believe, in policy terms why a distinction should be drawn between actions which seriously damage property and those which injure people and we believe that creating such a distinction could have serious operational consequences for the police.
A number of points were raised by Members of the Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Cope, referred to the G8 meeting in Paris on computer crime. I understand that that is part of a regular meeting of a high-tech crime sub-group of the G8 countries on transnational organised crime. Its focus suggests that it is organised crime rather than just terrorism but improvements for international co-operation in this area may have considerably wider benefits.
I shall have to write to my noble friend Lord Taylor of Gryfe on the specific case he raised. I was grateful to my noble friend for his contribution on the definitions of terrorism at international level. The Scottish case is interesting. The Government are satisfied that their possession of nuclear weapons is entirely consistent with international law. There can surely be no dispute that damaging computers on a submarine should be capable of being caught by the criminal law. The question as regards computers is an important issue.
I hope that I have covered the points raised. If I have missed something, no doubt noble Lords will not hesitate to mention it. I shall be happy to take their points further if I can.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Avebury: I apologise for troubling the Minister again, but I asked him to consider the compatibility of the definition in Clause 1 with that of a terrorist act overseas in Clause 59(2)(e) which limits the damage to
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property to an offence under Section 1(2) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971, endangering life by damaging property.
Why should the definition of the damage to property be more limited in terrorist acts overseas than domestically? What is the Government's reason for having a different definition of terrorism according to where the act is committed?
Lord Bassam of BrightonI am grateful to the noble Lord for his sharp reading of the Bill. I do not think that one definition counters another. However, I shall study the provision more closely and, if possible, deal with it at greater length.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: The Minister may wish to reflect on this. The answer to my noble friend may be that in Clause 59 the offence is predicated upon inciting another person,
"to commit an act of terrorism wholly or partly outside the United Kingdom, and … the act would, if committed in England and Wales, constitute one of the offences listed in subsection (2)".
The whole premise is that it is an act of terrorism within the definition in Clause 1. Therefore the definition does not seem wider in respect of an act committed overseas than an act committed in this country. I do not know whether the Minister has a view on that.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: The noble Lord has the benefit of being a noble and learned Lord. I suspect that his interpretation is right. That was my understanding and reading of the relationship between those two clauses.
Lord Skelmersdale: I am sure the whole Committee was enormously encouraged when about two minutes into his speech, the Minister went into what I call "Fagin" mode, saying that "he thinks he'd better think it out again". After the debate on the various definitions in Clause 11 am sure he is right to do so.
However, from that point on his speech degenerated somewhat. He started to chip away at the various arguments advanced. I do not mind that because presumably he was setting his own parameters as to what he would or would not consider. That is fair enough. However, he made two remarks which somewhat surprised me: first, that in his view graffiti would not be violence against property; and, secondly, that the bombing of an animal laboratory at night might well come into the same category. However, although no one has yet referred to it, subsection (3) of Clause 1 states:
"In this Act a reference to action taken for the purposes of terrorism includes a reference to action taken for the benefit of a proscribed organisation".
Therefore, were the two cases exemplified by the Minister to be committed by members of, or in furtherance of, a proscribed organisation they would come automatically under the Bill's classification of terrorism. Therefore, in his Fagin mode, which he says

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he will go into, will he be good enough to consider the effects of subsection (3) on any consideration that he gives to subsections (1) and (2)?
Lord Hylton: Before the Minister replies to that, he twice mentioned the bombing of animal laboratories by night so as not to cause human casualties. I believe that he mentioned that in defence of the Government's definition. Will he accept that such actions could be properly dealt with under statutes concerned with causing explosions, arson or criminal damage? Those were the types of issue that I had in mind when I argued at Second Reading that the Bill goes unnecessarily wide.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I hope that I conveyed the impression to the Committee that we as a government have a fairly fixed view of what the definition should be, that that view is reflected in the Bill as it stands, but that, of course, we need to listen, as we always do, to the important points that are made in a debate such as this. No doubt many noble Lords are much better at definition than I am, particularly as I am a non-lawyer.
Particularly in respect of the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, I have indicated that we shall look very closely at the issue of computers and whether or not they need to be enclosed specifically within the definition that we have chosen. Of course, I undertake to reflect on all the various points made by Members of the Committee in the debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, again asked a question that he raised at Second Reading, and I believe that it bears some respect. In his contribution the noble Lord challenged me to look again at the relationship between Clause 3 and the other clauses with regard to the definition. I shall give further thought to that.
I return to my point about graffiti. Although it is certainly unpleasant and unsightly, I cannot think of any circumstances, certainly as we consider the matter this evening, in which one might consider it to be a form of terrorism. However, of course, we must all take serious note of the damage and distress that it causes. In effect, in many instances it is a form of criminal damage.
This has been a useful debate. I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, who said that he hoped that the debate would help us to focus down rather more when we come to consider the definition at Report stage. I suspect that that is what we shall be able to do. As I said, after giving further thought to the matter, I shall come back to the issue of computers and their place in any subsequent definition. Of course, I shall look carefully at the various points that have been made during the course of this useful debate.
6.45 p.m.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I was happier with the Minister when he said that it was a thought-provoking debate and that he would give consideration to this and that than when he said to my noble friend Lord
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Skelmersdale that the Government had a fixed view of what the definition should be. I hope that we have indeed succeeded in provoking thought on a number of the issues raised. I believe it is certain that we shall return to them later.
I hope that Members of the Committee will forgive me if I refer back to some of the points. I was attracted by the use of the word "unlawful", as supported by the Liberal Democrats' amendment and in their speeches, because of what was described as the "Kosovo problem". It seems to me that that is one area where further thought needs to be given.
However, the Minister also had my support when he talked about assassination. As I see it, one of the difficulties with the Liberal Democrat amendment is that it refers only to attacks on the public or a section of the public. I do not believe that one person can be a section of the public. During the time—
Lord Goodhart: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cope, for raising that point. I believe that that is a fair criticism of our definition. If we are to bring back this matter on Report, it certainly needs to be looked at again to ensure that it covers that point.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I was about to say that during my time as a Member of another place, four Members of Parliament were murdered by the IRA; three of them in individual assassinations, as noble Lords will recall, and one at the Grand Hotel in Brighton. Those specific assassinations were, by anyone's definition, designed absolutely for terrorist purposes.
So far as concerns the bombing of the Grand Hotel, it seems to me that that was an attack on a section of the public. The Minister seemed to suggest that it was not. It was an attack not only on members of the government and Members of Parliament, but much of the damage and several of the deaths were inflicted on people who were either supporters of the Conservative Party, attending the conference or looking after the hotel. Many of the people involved were not members of the Conservative Party but were involved in other ways with the conference. It is obviously extremely important to include an action of that kind.
Some attention has been given in the debate to the question of whether damage to property should be included in the definition only if it endangers life and not if it simply damages property. As most Members of the Committee know, on a large number of occasions property in Northern Ireland has been damaged but there has been no loss of life or injury to people because warnings have been given with the deliberate intention of permitting the building in question to be cleared. Nevertheless, the action has been terrorist in purpose and it has been applied by both sides. I do not make a partisan point, as it were, in the Northern Ireland context in drawing attention to that point.
Other terrorist actions, such as letting off bombs or firing guns in the course of training, obviously do not hurt anyone. They take place deliberately in the most

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remote spot possible in order that terrorists may refine their weapons, for example, mortars, and so on, and refine their techniques in using those weapons. Those are definitely terrorist actions in anyone's book and should, I believe, be covered in this case.
Therefore, I believe that a considerable amount of serious damage to property takes place which nevertheless does not kill or injure people and, in fact, is not intended to do so. Of course, from time to time people have been injured or killed as a result of action which was not intended to injure or kill but did so because the warning was insufficiently specific or because of other reasons.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, mentioned the recent daubing of the statue of Sir Winston Churchill. Quite frankly, that does not seem to me to be covered by any of the definitions on offer this afternoon; nor should it be. It was, of course, highly offensive and misguided and no doubt constituted criminal damage. However, that is different from saying that it should be covered within the definition of terrorism.
In talking about electronic systems, the Minister seemed to dismiss an attack on closed circuit television systems, which are included in the definition that I have put forward of electronic systems, but are not in some of the other definitions that are available. I am sure that some Members of the Committee realise that in Northern Ireland closed circuit television has been an absolutely vital protection against attack. Every police station in Northern Ireland has elaborate systems to monitor, for example, car parks and other areas to ensure that the police are aware if a mortar is placed in a position from which it could be fired at a police station. To damage a closed circuit television system of that kind is a terrorist act.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I want to seek some clarification. Is it the noble Lord's intention to include CCTV systems with that amendment? Was that a deliberate intention in moving the amendment because that is something extra to the way in which we originally understood it?
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I think that all these electronic systems can be the subject of terrorist attack. I do not think it is simply confined to computer systems. One has to be careful because nowadays television systems are controlled by computers. More or less every electronic system, including motor cars and all sorts of things, are controlled by chips and computers and so on. A reference to computers probably covers most of those things as well.
There are also computers containing police intelligence which is an extremely important point. There was a big attack on the forensic science laboratory in Northern Ireland while I was a Minister there. That is an example of trying to attack those who are dealing with terrorism, making their lives much more difficult and their efforts less effective.
There is the big point, as I described it at the start, of whether or not the phrase "in some form" of intimidating and coercing the government, the public
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or any section of the public should be included, and whether the concept of fear should be included. The Minister said in his comments that they started by building on the Protection against Terrorism Act, a definition of putting the public in fear, but what they have done in this definition is to take out the concept of putting the public in fear. There are different ways in which one can express it. They have taken out the concept from the definition. That is something about which I think the Minister and his colleagues should reflect very carefully in the course of further consideration of this definition. It is a very important definition, as we have all agreed. It is a very difficult definition, as we have all agreed. We are all agreed also that we want, if possible, to have an agreed definition that will fulfil the desires which all of us share to a fair degree.
This has been an important debate and we look forward to hearing the results of the Minister's reflections. I will certainly be reflecting further on the issues that have been discussed and the points made. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 1.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Dean of Harptree): I should point out to the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 3.
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 7, after ("threat,") insert ("of action which is, or appears to be,").
The noble Lord said: This is a much smaller point. The Captain of the Gentleman at Arms will he pleased to know that progress is likely to be a little swifter on the remaining amendments to be considered today.
The point occurred to me in discussing this Bill and its terms that there are sometimes actions—there were some bombs in London not so long ago of this character—which look like terrorist actions when they happen. Therefore, the police go into anti-terrorist mode. They use some of the powers incorporated in this Bill. It may subsequently turn out that these were not terrorist actions but actions of some kind of criminal nut, as it were, in which case it may be that the actions taken by the police which probably led to the arrest of the person concerned, might be invalidated by it being shown that this was not a terrorist action and the police were not entitled, in retrospect, to take the action that they did. That is why the suggestion is made in Amendment No. 2 that action which appears to be terrorist action should, nevertheless, be able to be followed by a police cordon and all the other powers which come later in the Bill.
I realise that this could give rise to the use of the antiterrorist powers and the anti-terrorist police operations when they are proved ultimately not to be necessary. At the same time I would not want to invalidate the prosecution of someone who is not a terrorist, but who, nevertheless, let off bombs or took

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some action which appeared, in the first instance, to be a terrorist action. It is quite a small point but not without its own importance. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I suspect that we have all been making faster progress.
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation. He has clarified the meaning of the amendment. It would appear to us that it is an action designed to be covered in his "definitional" thinking for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause where a judgment has to be made.
We have some sympathy with the spirit behind the amendment which we take to ensure that police and others can be confident that they can act even if they are not 100 per cent sure whether a qualifying motivation is present as long as such motivation appears to be present. I trust that is the right understanding of the proposal.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: Yes.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: It is important that the police are not needlessly deterred from acting to combat terrorism. However, we believe on reflection that the amendment is unnecessary. As we see it, provided the police are able to advance a reasonable case for their belief that a qualifying motive was present this should he sufficient. The fact that there have been no difficulties to the application of the current definition, which does speak of the use of violence for political ends without qualification, underlines that there may not be a difficulty in practice. I think we should rely on that.
Furthermore, I am concerned that inserting the concept of "appears" into the definition might give rise to uncertainty and drafting difficulties. I ask the question: how would it work in the context of the terrorist property provisions where the test might then be whether the funds in question were being used for the purposes of an action which is or appears to be done to advance a political, religious or ideological cause? We think that there could be difficulties in applying the "appears to" concept in the context of the decision about the proscription of groups.
I am not persuaded that the approach proposed by the noble Lord in his amendment, which I am sure was intended to be helpful, would work in all the contexts linked into the definition of the Bill.
I hope that on the basis of that explanation the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Does the noble Lord agree with me that Part V of the Bill dealing with counter-terrorist powers gives necessary latitude because, for example, in Clause 41 it provides:
"A constable may arrest without a warrant a person whom he reasonably suspects to be a terrorist."
Similarly, a magistrate under Clause 42 may—
"issue a warrant … if satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting …"
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and so on. Is not the point made by the Minister buttressed by Part V, making this amendment unnecessary?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: The noble Lord, as ever, has been very helpful. My understanding of those clauses is that they do provide that necessary flexibility. In a sense, that is what we require in the operation of this part of the legislation. I think that there will be common consent and agreement around the House to that point.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: One always learns something in this House in the course of these debates. I will certainly reflect on what has been said on this amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7 p.m.
[Amendments Nos. 3 to 9 not moved.]
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 1, line 14, at end insert ("except in countries with which the United Kingdom is at war,").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is moved to deal with the Kosovo or Gulf War problem or however one likes to describe it. Most of us agreed in the course of the earlier debate that there is a problem in this regard in relation to what happens when there are countries to which the United Kingdom is antagonistic, is at war, or some other definition—mine is not perfect—and there are also groups in this country which may be supporting the opposition in the country concerned. One can think of numerous examples, all the way from the French Resistance and so on and the operations of the SOE and others right the way up to much more recent examples.
There is a problem. My amendment does not solve it entirely. But it raises the problem and it is at least a step in the right direction. Of course, we could rely on the designation of countries as either good or bad, as it were—if that is not too "cartoon" a way of expressing it—by the Secretary of State. That is not a very good way of dealing with the matter. But we certainly could do that. I have tried to introduce a more objective way of expressing the matter in Amendment No. 10. It is an important point on which, I believe, the Minister is already going to reflect as a result of our earlier discussions. I certainly think he should do so. Meanwhile, I beg to move.
Lord Monson: The noble Lord, Lord Cope, mentioned the Kosovo problem. But is it not the case that the United Kingdom was never formally at war with Serbia?
Lord Cope of Berkeley: That is one reason why I am not sure that my definition is entirely satisfactory.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: This is a very difficult series of points. I did not move my Amendment No. 9 because I thought that it might be better to

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raise the issue in the rather wider context of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope. It goes back further than the noble Lord suggested. Members of the Committee on the Liberal Benches will remember that Mr Campbell-Bannerman asked the very pertinent question, "When is a war not a war?" in his famous speech at the Guildhall. He answered by saying, "When it is waged by methods of barbarism". A whole can of worms is being opened here in relation to how much we should apply to these matters when war is either declared or has not been declared.
To a certain extent, where war has been declared, we are governed by the Geneva Conventions. But it is important that the law of the land states what should be done under most conceivable circumstances and I look forward to hearing what the Government have to say. I certainly look forward to arriving at something rather more satisfactory by Report stage.
Lord Bach: As Amendment No. 9 was not moved by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, I can considerably shorten my reply to this group of amendments. I deal solely with Amendment No. 10 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. Indeed, some of what I have to say was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Bassam in reply to the long debate on the first group of amendments.
The Government are right in assuming that the intention behind the amendment—indeed, it has been made clear by the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley—is to ensure that the Bill does not cover the legitimate acts of our Armed Forces and those supporting them in times of war. We believe that we can offer strong reassurance as to that.
First, as a general principle, we believe that it would be difficult to reach the conclusion that our Armed Forces, when acting in the course of their duties in an armed conflict, could be held to come within the definition of terrorism in the Bill. Taking it further, I repeat now the general principle in law that statutes do not bind the Crown unless by express provision or necessary implication. Of course, the Crown covers the military as well as others in the service of the Crown.
In this Bill, there is one minor and fairly technical exception in Clause 118, which has already been referred to. Apart from that, the offences in the Terrorism Bill will not apply to Crown servants and, therefore, would not affect our troops at a time of war. Those are my general comments on the amendment.
Lord Goodhart: I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. While I can see that the Bill may not apply to Crown servants on the grounds that they are entitled to Crown exemption, it would potentially apply (would it not?) to members of the armed forces of France or the US.
Lord Bach: I shall now have to go back to part of the answer which I thought I could get away with not
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giving because of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, not moving his Amendment No. 9. I shall return to that before I sit down.
I deal with the difficulties of the wording of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. First, as it stands, it would not just cover our Armed Forces but would also exempt from prosecution in courts in the United Kingdom any terrorist act committed in a state with which we were engaged in armed conflict. That would cut across our international obligations, particularly the Terrorist Bombing Convention, to submit for prosecution any alleged terrorists in the UK whom we do not extradite for prosecution elsewhere.
We believe that two other technical defects have been identified. We no longer speak of war but rather of armed conflict. That is a very minor point. Another is that the terms in which the amendment has been drafted means that it is not clear whether the act would have to be committed during the conflict or whether the exception could be back-dated to apply to an act committed before the conflict began.
I accept at once that those last two points are genuinely technical. The real point behind the noble Lord's amendment is understood. However, we believe that we have answered that by the Crown not being bound and also that it is difficult to conclude that our Armed Forces could, when acting in the course of their duties, be held to come within the definition of terrorism.
I deal now with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart; in other words, that allied forces might be liable under the Bill. The position there is really linked with that difficult issue of freedom fighter or terrorist.
Without going into the full arguments as far as that is concerned, that brings us up against potentially hard cases. Where significant proportions of the population have sympathy with the objectives pursued by, for example, our allies, we could not say, under the definition of terrorism in the Bill, that offences were not being committed. It may well be that offences are being committed.
We do not believe that the intention behind the acts, however worthy or understandable, would somehow make those unlawful acts lawful; how could they? But we recognise that in certain cases—this really would be our line—there are public interest considerations that should be borne in mind in considering whether prosecution should ever be started or continued.
Before the noble Lord comes in on that point, perhaps I may say that I am speaking more about organisations in foreign countries that commit acts which, while being terrorist acts by the standards of the Bill, are acts which may well have some support in this country, than I am, perhaps, about, for example, allied troops. However, the same might apply. There is a future debate to be had on who should decide on the prosecution; whether it should be the Director of Public Prosecutions or the Attorney-General. I hope Members of the Committee will listen carefully when I say that we are considering that matter with care

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before we reach the necessary amendments. We are considering it sympathetically in terms of it being the Attorney-General. I make no commitment, but that is an issue to which we will come in due course.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I am grateful to the Minister. I was about to raise that very point. I seem to recall the right honourable Douglas Hogg in another place focusing on the fact that many of the bombing acts of the ANC in the mid-1980s fall within this definition. We are dealing with a highly political public interest choice which has to be made.
May I take it, without any commitment on the part of the Government, that when we come to Amendment No. 176 tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Goodhart, which indicates that the Attorney-General is the right public officer to make that public interest decision rather than the Director of Public Prosecutions, that this might be a way forward, rather than tampering with definitions and trying to grasp an amoeba, which is difficult? This is not the sort of matter which one would normally leave to the Attorney-General to decide upon in the public interest.
Lord Bach: I shall not go into the interesting debate that no doubt we shall have on that amendment. I have said, and I stand by it, that we will look sympathetically at the terms of that amendment. I hope that will satisfy the noble Lord for today.
In attempting to answer the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I raise these matters because they are relevant. However, they are perhaps best covered by repeating what I said: it would be hard to conclude that our Armed Forces—perhaps it could even read "our allies' armed forces"—when acting in the course of their duties in an armed conflict, could be held to come within the definition of terrorism in the Bill. That is the other limb upon which it could be argued that the issue raised by the noble Lord may not be such an issue in practice as it is in theory.
However, I have gone off the track to answer the nobne Lord, Lord Goodhart. I believe my noble friend may have a searching question.
7.15 p.m.
Lord Goldsmith: I am not sure that it is searching, and I IN as not sure of the moment to raise it. I wonder whether, in the view of my noble friend the Minister, there is an additional problem posed by the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cope. The amendment focuses on the place where the action is taken, whereas I believe what he had in mind was the question of against whom the action is directed. As it stands, the amendment, if passed, would prevent it being terrorism if people took action in a country with which we were at war but which was directed at our own citizens, for example. I suggest that that is not what the Act had in mind. That was the question I was thinking about asking when my noble friend the Minister suggested I should rise.
Lord Bach: I shall think about replying to it, and I shall put it to the noble Lord, Lord Cope. There is a
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final word I should like to say in response to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. We do not think the definition covers any lawful action in armed conflict. It really is unlikely that a court would call the actions to which he referred terrorism; but it may be even at a stage before that. Then, obviously no prosecution would take place.
I hope that I have satisfied the noble Lord, Lord Cope, with my answer to his amendment. We do not think that the amendment is necessary. We do not think that there is any danger in the real world of our Armed Forces finding themselves liable under the Bill.
Lord Avebury: I am sure that the Committee will be relieved to hear that there is not any danger that members of the Armed Forces would be liable to prosecution under the provisions of the Bill.
The Minister reminded us that we no longer speak about being at war but about being in a conflict situation. In my mind that raises the question of what happens in the countries where we are engaged in either peacekeeping or peace supporting operations. A particular example that springs to mind at present is that of our forces in Sierra Leone. According to what the Minister told the Committee, nothing that our forces do in Sierra Leone could possibly be the subject of proceedings under the Bill.
In answer to my noble friend Lord Goodhart, he also stated that he thought the consent of the Attorney-General or whoever it may be, to a prosecution, would mean that acts committed by forces allied to the United Kingdom would also not be subject to prosecution under the Bill. Therefore, the Bangladeshis or the Indians, for instance, who are serving with the UNAMSIL forces in Sierra Leone would be able to engage in armed acts against the rebel RUF without there being any threat of prosecution.
In my mind that raises the possibility of the extension of the United Kingdom's jurisdiction to acts committed by the terrorist organisations. Are we saying that if, for instance, Mr Foday Sankoh, the leader of the RUF, set foot in the United Kingdom we could bring proceedings against him under the Bill, or that any armed opposition to a government, whether in Sierra Leone or any other part of the world, which is committing acts specified in Clause I would render itself liable to jurisdiction in this country?
If that is what we are saying, the Bill represents a large extension of our extra-territorial jurisdiction. The Attorney-General recently reaffirmed to me that that was not the intention of the Government. He said that we still maintain that any extension of extra-territorial jurisdiction would have to be justified on the same criteria as were contained in the assessment by the Home Office of extra-territorial jurisdiction which was produced, I believe, in the summer before this Government came into office. They relied on that when I introduced a Bill in this House to extend our jurisdiction to acts committed under common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which at the time the Government opposed.

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In a recent answer to me in a letter, the Attorney-General stated that it was now the intention of the Government, when they come to legislate on the international communal courts statute to take powers to criminalise Article 3 acts. I welcome that and I am very pleased that they have come round to my point of view.
However, here we are under this Bill embarking on an enormous extension of extra-territorial jurisdiction and there has been no discussion at all, as far as I am aware, on the principle of the matter. They have departed from the policy of both this Government hitherto and their predecessors in office. I think that requires an examination by your Lordships at this stage. This will be the only opportunity that we have of doing so.
Lord Bach: I do not want disappoint the noble Lord, but I have really little to say about this. The definition of terrorism in Clause 1 of course does not create an offence in itself. The Bill creates offences further on, and we will come to those in due course. At the moment I certainly do not want to talk about the situation in Sierra Leone: that is not what I am briefed to do and I think it would be unfortunate if I were to do so. Obviously any person, whoever it may be, has to commit an offence under this Bill to be caught.
The Bill has tidied up the previous position under the two Acts, so that the definition of terrorism applies to acts that take place anywhere in the world. However, it is of course vital that if we are to prosecute anyone it would have to be in regard to offences created by this Bill. I will leave the point there.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: Not for the first time, I am glad that I did not make exaggerated claims for the drafting of this particular amendment, Amendment No. 10, particularly in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, had to say a few moments ago. I think that the noble Lord the Minister has got out of the "armed forces" difficulty. He has explained the solution to that. However, I am less clear about the position of other civilians who might be involved. I am not sure whether their position is as clear.
He referred a moment ago to the definition having been "tidied up" by its extension to anywhere in the world. If I may say so, I think that it is rather more than a mere "tidying up", but I do not think I need to pursue that at this moment. It is clear that we shall return later to this general point. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 not moved.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Temporary legislation]:
Lord Skelmersdale: I am not sure whether I am the only Member of the Committee who finds the drafting of this particular Bill incredibly difficult. On the face of it, Clause 2 says that the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 and the Northern
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Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996 shall cease to have effect. That is backed up by, I think, Schedule 16 much later in the Bill. Then one goes on to read about Schedule 1, which the Committee is just about to study, which concerns the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act: that is a partial continuance schedule. One can readily understand that. It flows, as it were, in a logical sequence.
However, one discovers on further reading of the Bill that the 1989 Act itself is not abandoned at all. For example, it creeps into Clause 128, and some of the definitions and procedures in that temporary provisions Act appear in other clauses in this Bill. Would not this Bill, when passed into law, have been far simpler and easier to read by lawyers and others had the appropriate parts of Clause 128 been made into a schedule, to go between Schedules 1 and 2?
I may have been a little indulgent in speaking about this now but, with a bit of luck, the answers I hope to be given will mean that I need not move my amendments to Clause 11, and that will save time.
Lord Hylton: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, because I think this is more than just a drafting point. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which I mentioned earlier, has stated its belief that there is no need for this provision—that is Clause 2—given the powers contained in Part VII of this Bill. It goes on to say that it believes the EPA should be repealed and not replaced. I hope the Government will give that some serious thought.
Lord Bach: Let me say first of all what Clause 2 intends to do. It has two purposes. First, it repeals the PTA and the EPA, whose provisions are due to be replaced by this Bill. Secondly, it gives effect to Schedule 1, which we shall come on to in a moment, to continue in force the EPA, with some amendments, until the provisions of the Bill are brought into force: in other words, they are transitional essentials. This is an essential transitional proposal for Northern Ireland.
The current EPA would expire on the 24th August this year. Unless it is continued by Clause 2 there will be a gap between those provisions expiring and the coming into force of the Terrorism Bill. It is not practical to assume that the Bill's provisions could be commenced at Royal Assent, given, for example, the need for the police to familiarise themselves with the new powers and procedures. As I say, the two Acts are repealed by Clause 2, but these transitional provisions are needed and they are set out in the clause to which the noble Lord refers, Clause 128. For example, they are needed where prosecution is begun under the PTA before the Act comes into force.
Lord Skelmersdale: Will the noble Lord give way? I am grateful to him. I was not complaining about the need, but about the way it has been done. In Clause 2 there is a cross-reference, quite rightly, to Schedule 1,

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but again there is no cross-reference, for example, to Clause 128, and the whole thing seems to me to be totally illogical.
Lord Bach: I am grateful to the noble Lord, who has a great deal of experience. We will look at that and come back on it, if we may.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1996]:
Lord Bach Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 61, line 30, leave out ("the passing of this Act") and insert ("14th June 2000").
The noble Lord said: I should like to make it clear to the Committee that I did not intend to move this amendment and, with the leave of the Committee, I should like to explain why. This technical amendment was tabled to ensure that paragraph 1(1) of Schedule I achieved its aim of keeping alive the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act during the transitional period between Royal Assent and the Bill's coming into force. It is very much a safeguard amendment which would be required only if the Bill received Royal Assent before 15th June, the date on which the current emergency provisions Act falls due for renewal. I am now conscious that I have given two quite separate dates for the date on which that Act has to be renewed. I will ensure that the Committee knows the right date before I sit down.
As your Lordships will realise, we have only just begun in this Committee to consider these very important provisions. While it would be wonderful to think that this Bill will become law by 15th June, we are realistic enough to realise that is not a very likely option. This amendment is therefore unnecessary and I am sorry to have troubled your Lordships with it. However, I beg to move.
Lord Skelmersdale: I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister. Once an amendment has been spoken to in so many words, it really must be moved to allow a speaker to get in, should he or she want to, and question the Minister; otherwise the opportunity disappears for all time—or, if not for all time, at least until the next stage of the Bill—which is a pity.
The Minister went into all sorts of contortions explaining why he was not going to move the amendment, but the explanation seemed to me to revolve around it not being a feasible option to have the Bill on the statute book by 14th June or whatever the right date is or will be.
7.30 p.m.
Lord Bach: The renewal is due on 15th June. The expiry date will be 24th August.
Lord Skelmersdale: At least we have our dates sorted out. Nonetheless, the Minister's reason for saying he did not intend moving the amendment appeared to be the reason for tabling the amendment. So I was totally lost in his argument. I am all for having a date and I am all for having the right date, but it may be that the
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real reason is that in this amendment the date is wrong. Be that as it may, it would leave things to an enormous amount of chance to leave the words,
"the passing of this Act",
where they are in the Bill. There must be a date of some sort.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Before the noble Lord sits down, does he agree that the Minister correctly explained to the Committee that there must not be a gap between the work we are now doing and the date when the new Act comes into force in relation to pending criminal proceedings? What is commendable about the Government's approach is that they are seeking to achieve certainty, but not in the way that one would do if this matter were not complicated, because it is complicated and one is trying to move from temporary to permanent legislation. Therefore, though I may not have drafted the whole of this Bill precisely in the way it has been drafted, the Minister's answer reassures us that there will not be a gap and that we will have complete certainty. In those circumstances we should not cavil about this.
Lord Skelmersdale: Cavilling or not, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for what he said in that short intervention. I agree that it is important that there should be no gap. I hope that the words in the Bill as unamended will ensure that; but I shall have to look carefully at what the Minister said because, from what I believe he said, I doubt that they will.
Lord Bach: The Government's view is that they will ensure exactly that. The noble Lord need not he too worried about this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Bach Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 62, line 38, after ("Lord Chancellor") insert ("by statutory instrument").
The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to make clear that the Lord Chancellor's rules, referred to at paragraph 9(7)(a) of Schedule 1 are made by statutory instrument. The rules in question are made under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and relate to the National Security Certificate Tribunal established under that Act. The Terrorism Bill brings within the remit of that tribunal appeals against national security certificates issued in appeals to the High Court against a refusal by the Secretary of State to grant a certificate to a person wishing to provide private security services in Northern Ireland. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 [Proscription]:
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 15:
Page 2, line 16, leave out paragraph (c).
The noble Lord said: This amendment arises from a recommendation of the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Deregulation, to whose recommendations this House always pays close attention.
In paragraph 15 of the committee's 12th report, which was its main report on this Bill among other matters, the committee draws attention to this matter and says that the House may wish to seek justification from the Minister for this "unusual" power. It is to seek further justification that I tabled this amendment.
On the face of it, it is a wide power to permit the Secretary of State to amend Schedule 2 "in some other way". That is expressed extremely widely. It is an Henry VIII power; that is, a power of secondary legislation to amend primary legislation, subject to the affirmative procedure. That is perfectly correct, and the Select Committee thought it correct also. Nevertheless, I feel that we should seek further justification for the use of this power. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cope, for flushing us out on this matter and I shall happily give an explanation.
Clause 3 provides the Secretary of State's power to proscribe and deproscribe organisations. As such, it is fundamental to the operation of Part II of the Bill. Amendment No. 15 cannot be accepted because the power which it would delete is necessary to the proper working of the proscription regime.
Proscribing and deproscribing organisations is normally done by adding organisations to or taking them away from Schedule 2. However, it is also necessary for the Secretary of State to be able to amend the schedule in some other way. The reason is that he may need to add, remove or amend a note such as is referred to in subsection (2) of Clause 3.
The use of notes in Schedule 2 is a drafting innovation, but is intended to achieve the same effect as the current legislation. In the Northern Ireland (Emergency Powers) Act 1996, the corresponding schedule includes an entry for,
"the organisation using the name 'The Orange Volunteers' and being the organisation in whose name a statement described as a press release was published on 14th October 1998".
While the intention of that entry is clear enough, we felt that there was a risk of confusion and even some contradiction between it and the general principle now in Clause 3(1)(b); that is, if an organisation is proscribed, so are all other organisations operating under the same name. The approach taken by the Bill is therefore to explain the particular case of the Orange Volunteers by means of a note to Schedule 2 and, in Clause 3(2), to disapply the general principle in this particular case.
That is why it is important that the Secretary of State can not only add to and subtract from the schedule, but can also amend it in other ways. We do not expect that there will be much need to use the power in Clause 3(3)(c) since, as I have just said, it has its origin in what is very much a one-off case.
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Nevertheless, since the precedent has now been set, we see the Clause 3(3)(c) power as an essential part of the package. I hope therefore that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment on this point.
Lord Goodhart: As a member of the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee, we rather suspected that that might be the answer to why this provision was included in the Bill. The purposes for which it is proposed seem to be acceptable and it is not likely that the committee need have any further concern with this matter. But I am glad that that has been placed on the record.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: In view of the explanation given by the Minister and the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Glentoran Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 16:
Page 2, line 19, at end insert—
("(4A) The Secretary of State may exercise his power under subsection (3)(b) in respect of an organisation only if he believes that it is not currently concerned in terrorism.").
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 17, which is a covering drafting amendment should Amendment No. 16 be accepted. This is quite a simple amendment, but the world of terrorism is complex and will become far more complicated. All sorts of political issues will come into the equation and it seems to us that the terms of this amendment cover the situation; that is to say, that the Secretary of State may remove an organisation from the proscribed list under such conditions.
If we do not have a condition that is clear cut and easily recognisable against that power, it would, perhaps, leave the matter a little open—a little naked—bearing in mind things that have happened in Northern Ireland at different times when negotiating with terrorists. Moreover, as we discussed earlier, this Bill can cover terrorism elsewhere in the world to some extent. Indeed, we could be dealing with international terrorist groups. Before an organisation is taken off the proscribed list, it seems to us that the Secretary of State and the government of the day should take some considerable trouble to ensure that, both nationally and internationally, the said organisation is well and truly out, if I may put it that way, of the terrorist game. I beg to move.
Lord Avebury: This is, perhaps, a convenient opportunity for me to raise a point that worries me a little; namely, that in the Explanatory Notes we are told that the Government are considering which organisations involved in international terrorism might be added to the schedule. However, as far as I know, the Government have given no indication as to which organisations they have in mind. For example, will they include all the organisations that are listed in the US State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism,> the 1999 edition of which was published last

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month? Alternatively, if we do not take a ready-made list like the one to which I just referred, can the Minister give any indication of what principles will be applied?
Many organisations operate in the United Kingdom which some people may say are front organisations for terrorists. Perhaps I may give the Committee one example. Many people have complained about the activities of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, which operates under a pseudonym. Indeed, the High Commissioner for Sri Lanka has frequently complained about this organisation. He says that the British Government tolerate the activities of the LTTE in the UK and that they allow it to maintain offices, raise funds, and so on. Can the Minister say whether the I,TTE is one of the organisations that the Government are considering banning? It is named in the US State Department's Patterns of Global Terrorism, so we are not breaking any great secrets if we discuss the matter openly on the Floor of the Committee.
The Government cannot simply take the power to proscribe any organisation that comes into their mind; they must have some idea of what constitutes an organisation engaged in international terrorism and of what action they are likely to take against it if it has offices within the United Kingdom. We are talking about very extensive powers, and I believe that most Members of the Committee would agree that they are justifiable. But, before we leave this clause, I should be grateful if the Minister could give further information about how such powers will be used.
Lord Monson: This is not only a worthwhile amendment but also a very necessary one. Surely it would be quite wrong for any governrnent to cave in to organisations currently concerned in terrorism. Of course, the drafting of the amendment may not be 100 per cent perfect; I do not know. Nevertheless, I hope that the Government will at least accept the principle behind the amendment. It will be rather alarming if they do not.
7.45 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: These amendments are very similar in effect to those moved in another place by Mr David Lidington on 20th January, so this debate has, so to speak, already taken place. As I understand it, the amendments seek to place a similar restriction on the circumstances in which the proscribed organisation appeals commission could recommend de-proscription.
I take most seriously the points made by all Members of the Committee on this issue. Clearly, we must think very carefully about such matters. We rejected the amendment moved by Mr Lidington, which would have provided that the Secretary of State "may exercise his power under subsection (3)(b) in respect of an organisation only if he believes that it has ceased to be concerned in terrorism." I shall give the reasons.
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Under the Bill, proscription will be available for the first time for organisations concerned in international terrorism. I am reluctant to be drawn into listing and relying upon a US list relating to terrorism. We are carefully considering such matters. I am, of course, grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for drawing our attention to the 1999 US State Department listing, but, as I said, we wish to consider these matters most carefully.
It has to be said that it would be excessive to proscribe every organisation in the world that is concerned with terrorism. However, I can give the noble Lord sonic idea of the factors that will be taken into account, which are fairly obvious. First, we would have to consider carefully the nature and scale of the group's activities; secondly, we would have to look al the specific threat that it posed to the United Kingdom and our citizens abroad, which is clearly a very important consideration, as well as the extent of its presence in this country. Indeed, the noble Lord drew our attention to one group which may, or may not, fall into that category. Thirdly, we would also have to consider our responsibility to support other members of the international community in the global fight against terrorism. That has to be very important.
I am sure that those with long experience of such matters, like the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Cope of Berkeley, will recognise the role that we have to play within the wider international community in this respect. In that context, it is conceivable—and I stress only "conceivable"—that an organisation might cease to be a candidate for proscription in the UK without actually ceasing to be concerned in terrorism. It is conceivable, but we must leave it at that point.
The amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Cope, and others differ from those put forward by Mr Lidington in that their amendments require the Secretary of State to believe that the organisation is not currently concerned in terrorism. Therefore, under these amendments, the Secretary of State could de-proscribe an organisation which might not have entirely ceased to be concerned in terrorism—but only so long as he believed that the organisation was,
"not currently concerned in terrorism".
The arguments that we advanced in another place still apply to this version of the amendment. The Government believe that the hands of the Secretary of State should not be tied. As I stressed earlier, that is particularly important given our commitments in the field of tackling international terrorism where it is conceivable that, on balance, the Secretary of State might wish to de-proscribe an organisation which is concerned in terrorism.
As we have said, the Secretary of State will take his responsibilities very seriously. But it is right to ensure that the Secretary of State can weigh up all the relevant factors without being constrained in the manner contemplated by these amendments. With that

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explanation and the reassurance that we shall pay very close attention to these matters, I trust that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Glentoran: I thank the Minister for that explanation. Despite the international world of terrorism that exists, I, too, was somewhat surprised to find that the only organisations on the proscribed list were Irish. In fact, I attempted to put together an amendment that would include some other organisations that might well be put on the proscribed list. I pursued my inquiries through routes that I have trodden before in a different life. However, the people concerned were rather loath to let me have a list of suggested terrorist organisations that might be included on that proscribed list to be used in this context; but there is a list. I am sure that the Minister has access to whatever professional expertise that he needs in that field. Our intelligence forces have considerable expertise. I accept that any government with access to such expertise should be able, with that advice, to make a decision to remove, or not to remove, an organisation from the list. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 17 not moved.]
Clause 3 agreed to.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Deproscription: application]:
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 2, line 32, after ("regulations") insert (", after consulting the Advocate General,").
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 18 I wish to speak also to the amendments with which it is grouped. They all concern the question of Scottish law and their purpose is to ensure that when decisions are taken by the Secretary of State, in the case of Amendments Nos. 18 and 177, and by the Lord Chancellor, in the case of Amendments Nos. 27, 28, 29 and 30, account is taken of the differences between Scottish law and English law.
As regards Amendments Nos. 18 and 177, I suppose that I could have included the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General in the consultations to ensure that the Secretary of State took account of English law as well as Scottish law. Fortunately, the noble and learned Lord is not present to be offended at that omission. In any case, I believe that, as Attorney-General for Northern Ireland, his relationship with the Secretary of State is close enough to ensure that his view is taken into account.
However, I am less sure that the differences with regard to Scottish law will be adequately taken into account. As regards Amendments Nos. 27 to 30, consultation between the Lord Chancellor and the Lord President of the Court of Session is important. Scottish law and its rules and practices vary from those of English law. It is important that we do not appear to determine through the Lord Chancellor for England matters that concern Scotland, given that the
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Government have done their best to devolve matters to Scotland, and given that Scottish law has always been different from English law in important respects. I beg to move.
Lord Bach: These amendments would build in statutory requirements for the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor to consult with certain Scottish office-bearers before exercising powers under the Bill. As the noble Lord knows, terrorist matters are reserved matters. However, he is correct to say that the Scottish dimension will always be important. It is obviously the intention of noble Lords to ensure that that dimension is properly reflected in the exercise of these powers. The Government are aware that the Law Society of Scotland has proposed that the Bill be amended along these lines.
Strictly speaking, all these amendments are unnecessary. The Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor will, in any event, take account of any distinctive Scottish dimensions in exercising these powers. The positions of the two Scottish offices in question are, however, slightly different. The Advocate General for Scotland is a United Kingdom Government law officer. She is the legal adviser to the Cabinet on Scottish law—the equivalent of the Attorney-General as regards other matters. As such, any Secretary of State would consult her and, no doubt, the Attorney-General, as a matter of course on the making of regulations such as those in Clauses 4 and 118. This procedure is internal to the Government and we see no need whatsoever to spell it out on the face of the legislation. There is also a technical deficiency with Amendments Nos. 18 and 177 in that the reference should be to the "Advocate General for Scotland".
The case of the Lord President of the Court of Session is slightly different. He is the most senior judge in Scotland, and so he is not, of course, part of the Government. The Lord Chancellor would normally consult him on matters of the kind set out in Schedule 3. But we are prepared to consider further whether there would be any advantage in requiring this on the face of the Bill.
We wish to take away Amendments Nos. 27 to 30 and consider them further. We hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing Amendments Nos. 18 and 177 on the basis of the arguments that I have deployed.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: I am encouraged by the Government's response to Amendments Nos. 27 to 30 and by their explanation of the other amendments in the group. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 19:
Page 2, line 37, at end insert—
("(c) require the Secretary of State to publicise the application, and
(d) provide for representations by other interested parties to be made in favour of, or against. the application within a reasonable time.").
The noble Lord said: Clause 4 concerns an application to the Secretary of State for an organisation to be removed from the list of proscribed organisations. An organisation itself, or any person affected by its proscription, can apply for it to be removed from the list if it has renounced terrorism. Amendment No. 19 asserts that the application should be considered in the light not only of representations from the proscribed organisation itself but also from anyone else who wishes to comment on it. Therefore, it seems to me that the Secretary of State ought to publicise the fact that he has received an application to remove an organisation from the list and provide for representations to be made—within an appropriate timescale—by other people who are either in favour of, or against, the application.
Although the Secretary of State is usually extremely well informed in these matters, he may not necessarily know everything. Furthermore, those who have suffered as a result of the activities of a proscribed organisation might he deeply offended to discover that that organisation is struck off the list without their even knowing that an application had been made to do so. I therefore believe that the amendment should be carefully considered in the interests of the proper treatment of those who have suffered at the hands of these proscribed organisations—some of which, as we know, have committed the most dastardly crimes. I beg to move.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: A little later we shall consider possible rights of appeal against the proscription, as distinct from the deproscription, of political organisations. However, this seems to me to be the right point at which to raise a particular matter with the Minister. I do not expect him to respond to it this evening.
As I understand it, the Government committed themselves— I commend them on this—as regards statements of compatibility under Section 19 of the Human Rights Act, to the proposition that the Minister in charge of the Bill will explain in the course of debates on the Bill the reasons for his views on the compatibility of the Bill.
In relation to proscribing and deproscribing terrorist organisations, the matter that concerns me is the way in which the appeal rights are so circumscribed. The curious abridgement of the rights of appeal is the other side of the coin to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope. How can this be compatible with the right to a fair trial and the determination of one's civil rights and obligations under Article 6, and perhaps under Article 14, of the European Convention on Human Rights?
If one looks at Clause 5(3), the right of appeal is to be,
"in the light of the principles applicable on an application for judicial review".
That is fine. I take it that when the Human Rights Act comes into force that will include an application for judicial review using the convention rights that are to he directly effective in our courts.
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But when one comes to Schedule 3, which deals with the procedure for appeals, one notes that, under paragraph 5,
"The Lord Chancellor may make rules…regulating the exercise of the right of appeal to the Commission"
including making provision about the burden of proof and the admissibility of evidence.
Then, under paragraph 5(4)(a),
"provide for full particulars of the reasons for proscription or refusal to deproscribe to be withheld from the organisation or applicant concerned and from any person representing it or him".
I do not understand how there can be a fair hearing of the issue of whether to proscribe or deproscribe if the victim—this is the victim on the wrong side of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope—cannot know the reasons.
As I said, it is a detailed and important question. I would rather that the Minister had the opportunity to consider the answer and, perhaps at Report stage, explain the reasons for considering the Bill to be compatible in respect of the right to a fair hearing. I particularly have in mind not only Article 6, but the right to freedom of association under Article 11 of the convention.
One does not start with huge sympathy for these organisations, but, nevertheless, it is often the most unpopular people whose procedural and fairness rights we need to be vigilant about, even if they would be contemptuous of our rights. It is for that reason that I raise the issue now.
8 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: Perhaps I may deal first with the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I am grateful to him for the way in which he has raised this matter. I do not promise to give him a full response today—he is desirous that I do so perhaps at Report stage—but, having followed through his logic, it is obvious that he has raised a fair point.
We will of course write to the noble Lord but the important issue in this whole exercise—as I think he understands from some of his concluding comments about not having great sympathy for the organisations concerned—is to design a system which can protect sensitive intelligence. I suspect that that is part of the thinking behind the way in which the current schedule is drafted. However, I undertake to fully explore the issue that the noble Lord has quite properly raised.
Turning to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cope, I recognise that the intention of these amendments is, as he plainly said, to open up the deproscription application and appeal processes to others who may claim an interest—in short, to make this a more public process. But there are limits to how public this can properly be. The Secretary of State's decisions will often take account of sensitive intelligence matters, to which I have referred, that cannot be published. I am sure that Members of the Committee will understand that. The Secretary of State must weigh all the available information and decide where, overall, the national interest lies. We

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believe that the processes are already as open as they can be and that it would be wrong to amend the Bill in the manner proposed.
Let me deal first with the proposal that third-party representations should be able to be made for or against proscription at both the application and appeal stages. In short, we believe this to be unnecessary.
So far as concerns representations against proscription, any person who is affected by the organisation's proscription can, in any case, apply for deproscription in his own right under Clause 4(2)(b). Organisations will doubtless seek to put together the best case that they can and to draw together such support as they can muster, both at the application and appeal stages.
On the other hand, there may be third parties who feel strongly that the organisation should remain proscribed for some of the reasons referred to by the noble Lord. There is of course nothing to stop them making their views known, whether publicly or privately, to the Secretary of State. He will have already a very clear sense of the strength of feeling that the victims of a terrorist organisation, or their families and those close to them, may well have in support of continuing proscription.
The Secretary of State will make his decision on the basis of all relevant information—but the decision cannot be reached through a process of public debate, with all the relevant material available to all concerned. For those reasons we think it would be wrong to formalise a system which might suggest otherwise. We do not agree that there should be a statutory right for third parties to be heard.
With that in mind, perhaps I may now deal with the proposal that the Secretary of State should publicise applications. This would, of course, provide a trigger for third party representations. We do not see it as appropriate for the Secretary of State to be required to publicise applications in any case. If an organisation or affected person wants to make their application known, they will doubtless be able to do so. We believe that it should be for the applicant to do this. There may well be particular sensitivities in the case of some individuals.
In many instances an organisation will publicise its application anyway. It will be representing itself as a legitimate group and might well try to seek support from the press, from the public and from others to that end. But, as I said, this is not a matter that can be settled by public debate. There therefore seems little advantage in seeking to prompt such debate.
We are persuaded neither of the benefit of a statutory right for third parties to make representations at either stage, nor of the need for applications to be publicised. I therefore hope that, having heard the points that I have made, which focus very much on the hard facts of the issue, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My amendment does not seek an open process. There is nothing in the
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amendment to suggest that the application or the representations about it should be heard in public or argued out in a public forum such as a court of law. Of course I understand the point about intelligence information—the Secretary of State will make his decision very largely on information that he may not wish to disclose—but that is not what I am looking for. All that I seek is for those who may be victims of a particular organisation, or otherwise affected by it, to be in a position to make representations about why it should not be deproscribed. Amendment No. 21 makes a similar point.
The Minister said that there is nothing to stop them from making representations. I agree—there is nothing to stop them provided that the application has been made—but the application can be made secretly and, unless this amendment or one similar to it is agreed to, the Secretary of State has no obligation to publicise it. They are not going to make representations on the off-chance that there may have been an application to deproscribe.
The Minister does not seem to have answered the point. None the less, I do not propose to pursue the matter at this juncture and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 [Deproscription: appeal]:
Lord Goodhart Lord Goodhart moved Amendment No. 20:
Page 2, line 39, at end insert—
("( ) Where an order has been made under section 3, the organisation may appeal to the Commission.").
The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 20 and the other amendments in this group concern the provisions in Clauses 3 to 10 of the Bill about proscription matters. What we have under this very curious procedure is sentence first and trial second. What happens is that the Home Secretary makes a proscription order. That order comes into effect immediately with all its consequences. Membership of the proscribed organisation becomes an offence. Arranging a meeting to be addressed by a member of the organisation becomes an offence. That is obviously interference, as my noble friend Lord Lester pointed out, with rights of association and rights of freedom of speech of the members of the organisation. Those rights are not unrestricted. There have been and will be cases where these draconian steps are justified. Surely that should normally happen only after some kind of hearing has taken place.
What happens here is a most peculiar procedure. The proscribed organisation cannot appeal against a proscription order. What it can do is to apply under Clause 4, which it can do immediately, to be de-proscribed. If that application is refused, it can go to a hearing before the proscribed organisation appeal commission. That is a somewhat misnamed commission because the commission does not hear what is, in the ordinary sense of the word, an appeal; it judicially reviews the Home Secretary's decision, and that in itself is not a satisfactory arrangement.
The question then arises as to what happens if someone has been convicted of, let us say, membership of the organisation in the interval between the original proscription order being made and the date when the commission allows the appeal against refusal of the de-proscription order. This again is most peculiar. Under Clause 7, it all depends on whether the act which gives rise to the conviction occurred before or after the refusal by the Home Secretary to make a deproscription order If the offence is committed after the Home Secretary's refusal, the defendant can appeal to the Court of Appeal and, by statutory provision, the like of which I have never come across before, the Court of Appeal is legally bound to allow that appeal. On the other hand, if the offence is committed before the Home Secretary has refused to make the de-proscription order, the conviction stands even if the ground on which the commission allows the appeal is that there is no evidence which would have justified the Home Secretary refusing the de-proscription order.
This whole procedure is unnecessarily elaborate. First, why not simply allow an appeal from the proscription order? That is the purpose of Amendment No. 20 and Nos. 22 to 24. Secondly, while such an appeal is pending, the consequences of proscription should not, we believe, in general apply and that is the purpose of Amendment No. 31. The appeal to the proscribed organisation appeal commission is the only form of judicial proceeding involved in the proscription process and, while the appeal is pending, we believe that there should be no liability to prosecution under Clauses 11 to 13 or to the other consequences of becoming a proscribed organisation.
We make one proposed exception to that on obvious grounds of common sense. The cash of a proscribed organisation is liable to seizure and detention under Clauses 25 to 27. If those clauses do not come into effect until an appeal is dismissed, it is obvious that the cash would have disappeared in the interim. It therefore seems reasonable to make an exception for the seizure and detention of cash. There could of course be no order for forfeiture under Clause 28 until the appeal is dismissed and, if the appeal is allowed, the cash would of course be returned.
We are seriously concerned about the fairness and justice of this exceptional procedure. We think it should be both simplified and also altered to ensure that the consequences of proscription do not come into effect until such time as a judicial body has had a chance to look at the matter. There may be cases in which more immediate interim action should be taken on matters other than cash but, if so, I suggest that the Government should come back with amendments which will target those particular occasions and not have a general rule which makes proscription orders come into effect immediately, whether or not there is in fact any good reason why they should do so. I beg to move.
8.15 p.m.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My name is also attached to this amendment, but I shall not repeat anything said
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by my noble friend. However, I should like to make one or two further points on which I hope the Minister and his advisers will reflect.
First, there is no doubt that, by proscribing an organisation, action is being taken that interferes with a human right, the human right to freedom of association and the associated right to freedom of speech.
Secondly, that interference can be made only if it is prescribed by law and is necessary in a democratic society. The Human Rights Act would ensure that this Bill must be read and given effect in a way that is compatible with those rights if it possibly can. However, it is much better if we can write into the Bill provisions that ensure it rather than leaving it to judges in mitigation to put the matter right.
Thirdly, if there are no criteria spelled out in the Bill as to the circumstances in which the proscribed act will take place, that will lack legal certainty because people will have to guess and will not know what the circumstances are in which an organisation will he proscribed.
Fourthly, proscription must be only where necessary for a pressing social need, the burden of proof being upon the Government rather than the organisation to establish that under the convention. The last point is that these convention rights—freedom of association and speech— must be determined not only in a manner prescribed by law but must involve a fair hearing.
The Minister has already referred to the need to withhold sensitive intelligence information from the organisations and their perpetrators. I accept that. However, this is not a new problem for the Government or Parliament. It has arisen twice before. The first example was the case of Chahal v. United Kingdom where, in relation to suspected terrorists who were being extradited to India, the "three wise men" procedure was held by the Strasbourg Court to be wanting, partly because English courts could not effectively review the merits of the decisions. That led the Government, very wisely, to introduce a special procedure with a special form of judicial protection with a court-appointed lawyer who did not have to represent the alleged terrorists but who was provided with the basic information so that the Government's case could be tested.
The second example was the case of Tinnelly v. United Kingdom, which involved a very sensitive terrorist problem where national security considerations had to be weighed against granting contracts in Northern Ireland to people suspected of being associated with the IRA or with terrorism. Again, the Government have, very wisely and sensibly, introduced a special procedure to accommodate Article 6 of the convention.
Article 6 is not absolute. The right to a fair hearing is not absolute. It may be qualified by necessary and proportionate limitations. I accept that. But given that paragraph 7(4) of Schedule 3 provides for a specially appointed lawyer to be able to represent the interests of the organisation without being responsible to it, I

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see no good reason why a court-appointed lawyer, as it were, cannot be provided with the basic information so there can be a fair hearing without any disclosure to the proscribed organisation or the perpetrators. These are serious issues.
If, on reflection, the Minister is against me on all these points and stands by the position that a truncated appeal procedure is compatible with the convention, I ask him this question. If it is to be so circumscribed, why on earth cannot that circumscribed procedure apply to the proscribing of the organisation rather than in the convoluted way set out under the Bill? I am not advocating such a circumscribed procedure, but if it is to be so circumscribed, I cannot think of any compelling public interest reason why Amendment No. 20 is not a sensible approach.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: Perhaps I may deal, first, with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I listened with great care to what he had to say. I shall read Hansard very carefully as a consequence. I fully respect and understand the points he makes, certainly in relation to human rights and the operation of this appeal mechanism. We must have careful regard to all of those issues. We may well want to reflect on them some more.
As I understand the amendments, they introduce in effect a new right of appeal additional to what we consider to be the valuable appeal arrangements already proposed in the Bill. Our argument is that this addition is unnecessary. I shall explain the procedure as we have designed it. Under the Bill, as is the case under the existing legislation, the Secretary of State may proscribe organisations which are concerned in terrorism. Once Parliament has given its approval, subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, the proscription regime takes effect. That regime includes not only the membership offences in Clauses 11 to 13 and the cash at borders powers in Clauses 24 to 31 but also the terrorist property provision in Clauses 14 to 23 and with them the arrangements for restraint and forfeiture orders in Schedule 4.
If a person thinks that an organisation is wrongly proscribed, the first step is to apply, as is understood, for deproscription. He may be able to present new information that was not available when the initial decision was taken, or he may have information which shows that an organisation which was at one time concerned in terrorism and was properly proscribed is no longer concerned in terrorism and should consequently be deproscribed. The Secretary of State will then look again at the case and may decide on deproscription at that stage. If, however, the Secretary of State refuses to deproscribe, the person can appeal against that decision to the proscribed organisations appeal commission. If the commission determines in his favour, it can make an order and the effect of the order is that the Secretary of State must lay a deproscription order or deproscribe using the urgency procedure. If it is deproscribed following such an order, not only do the offences cease to take effect but
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also convictions can be overturned by virtue of Clause 7. Seized cash can be returned by virtue of Clause 29 and compensation made in respect of restraint and forfeiture orders may be sought. Paragraphs 10, 24 and 40 of Schedule 4 permit that.
We have always recognised that proscription is a very heavy-handed power. We believe that this procedure provides an important safeguard against its misuse by the Secretary of State. However, we also believe that the additional procedure proposed by the noble Lord's amendments would go beyond the needs of a safeguard and would be detrimental to the effective operation of the proscription regime itself.
Perhaps I may explain why we think the organisation must first apply for deproscription rather than being able to go straight to the proscribed organisations appeal commission to appeal the initial decision to proscribe. First, there is the genuine possibility that the Secretary of State may agree to deproscribe the organisation. That would avoid the need for what could be a lengthy and costly hearing before the proscribed organisations appeal commission. So it cuts out that unnecessary layer. Moreover, where an organisation has been proscribed for some time, an appeal against the decision to proscribe will not produce the right result. It could be that the initial decision to proscribe was lawful when it was made but that the situation had subsequently changed, either because the organisation had ceased to be concerned in terrorism or because the balance of factors to be taken into account in determining proscription—
Lord Goodhart: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Presumably, there would be a time limit within which an appeal could be made against the original proscription order. In that case it is very unlikely that in that relatively short interval, which might well be 14 or 28 days at the most, the nature of the organisation would have changed.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: That might be the case, yes. I accept the point. However, we believe that it is right to begin the process in every case with an application to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will be required to determine applications within a time specified in regulations. Under the current draft, the proposal is that that would be 90 days. Where he refuses, the case will have to reach the commission before very long.
Perhaps I may explain why it is our policy that the organisation should remain proscribed until the final disposal or determination. At Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, drew attention to this point and described it, as he did earlier, as conviction first and trial afterwards. That is not the right analogy. Proscribing an organisation is not like convicting a person. It is a powerful deterrent, not an offence in itself. That is an essential part of the consideration. The noble Lord suggests that the proscription order should not take effect until the end of the appeal process. The Government do not believe that that would work. Most obviously, under the noble Lord's

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proposal it would be in every organisation's interest to lodge an immediate application, and if that was refused, an immediate appeal, and to ensure that the proceedings lasted as long as possible. As the main proscription-related offences would not apply during that period, the organisation would be able to go on recruiting new members and generating support despite the fact that Parliament had endorsed the Secretary of State's view that it was concerned with terrorism. Under the present system, by contrast, it is in everyone's interest for the appeal procedure to work smoothly.
A further objection to the amendment is that, as I indicated at Second Reading, the noble Lord wishes to preserve the powers to freeze the resources of proscribed organisations. The new clause will not achieve that because subsection (2) applies only to cash at borders. In fact, the most powerful freezing provisions are the restraint orders in Schedule 4, which are inextricably bound up with the terrorist property offences in Clauses 15 to 18. Even if the proposal were redrafted to take that into account, I do not see the logic of the Government saying "You can go on being members of the organisation until the end of the appeal process, but we will freeze your assets now just in case we win". We believe that the only tenable position is that set out in the Bill whereby an organisation is either proscribed or it is not.
I recognise all of the sensitivities that have been raised by the noble Lord in moving the amendment. However, when one looks at the practicalities of the situation, I think that the amendments require further thought. I suggest that the noble Lord withdraws the amendment.
Lord Avebury: As the Minister described the procedure, the Secretary of State may proscribe the organisation and once Parliament gives its approval that proscription comes into effect. He is of course right in so far as concerns Clause 122(3), which provides that any order made under Clause 3 is subject to affirmative resolution by Parliament. There will then be a breathing space during which the organisation will know that proscription is coming and would be able to take precautions so as not to commit any of the offences outlined in Clauses 14 to 23, in particular those related to soliciting money or disposing of property.
However, perhaps I may also draw the Committee's attention to Clause 122(4). That allows the Secretary of State not to go through the affirmative resolution procedure but to declare that the matter is one of urgency so that proscription can come into effect immediately. That means that the Secretary of State could declare the matter urgent, proscribe an organisation at 10 o'clock in the morning and, from that point onwards, the members would be committing the offences specified in the Bill, even though they would not know that such an order had been made. There is no requirement on the Secretary of State, if he declares that the matter is urgent, to notify the organisation that it has been proscribed.
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I do not think that the Committee will agree that someone who has no way of knowing that a proscription order had been made could be committing an offence under one of the provisions in Clauses 14 to 23. Surely this cannot be the intention of the Government?
I believe that the Minister should think again about this part of the provisions. If the suggestion of my noble friend were to be accepted, then the organisation would have a right of appeal against a proscription order whether it was made by affirmative resolution or by the urgency procedures laid down in Clause 122(4). The difficulty would then be removed. I think that the Minister will somehow have to satisfy the Committee that people will not be put into the position of committing offences of which they could not have had any knowledge.
8.30 p.m.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: I suggest that it would be rather difficult for a terrorist not to know that he was a terrorist.
Lord Avebury: Perhaps I may reply to that comment. The point is not whether he is a terrorist, but whether he commits one of the offences laid down in Clauses 14 to 23 which arise only when the organisation is proscribed.
I shall return to the example I gave earlier in the debate; namely, that of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. I believe that I have made it clear that I have no sympathy whatever with that organisation. The Government would be right to take action to stop the activities of that particular terrorist organisation, which has brought such misery to the people of Sri Lanka. However, my point is this. The Secretary of State can make an order proscribing the LTTE at 10 o'clock in the morning. Someone in that organisation might continue to solicit money from its members for the purposes of the organisation—it is always declared that such donations are for the welfare of the people in the Tamil north rather than for terrorist purposes, but it is known that the money is somehow diverted into the military activities of the LTTE. Notwithstanding my abhorrence of the acts of violence committed by the organisation, if the Secretary of State makes an urgent decision to ban the organisation, its members should not be made liable for prosecution for something which they could not know had become a criminal offence by reason of that decision to invoke the urgent procedures laid down in Clause 122(4).
Lord Bassam of Brighton: We would be wise to be cautious in these matters, given the serious nature of terrorism and terrorist offences. It is that precautionary principle that has informed our approach here.
I understand the difficulties in which individuals might be placed, given the circumstances set out by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, but we have made it clear

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that if, subsequently, the organisation was successful on appeal, then, quite properly, restitution would be made. Those procedures need to be fully understood.
Lord Goodhart: I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. The conviction would not be set aside unless it had been made after the Home Secretary had rejected the application for the de-proscription order. So someone who is convicted of membership before the de-proscription order is applied for, or even after application has been made and before it has been dealt with by the Home Secretary, would find that the conviction would stand.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I should like to reflect on the words used by the noble Lord. That would seem to be quite right.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I apologise for intervening once more. The noble Lord has said that that seems to be "quite right". How can it be right for someone to be convicted of a form of conduct which has been proscribed without fair warning? The noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, rightly pointed out that terrorists must know what they are up to, but they will not know, until they have been informed that this procedure has been triggered, that they will be committing terrorist offences under this part of the Bill. Surely that violates the fundamental principle of legal certainty? Is not that the problem which needs to be addressed, whether by enhancing the rights of appeal or in some other way?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: The noble Lord will know better than I because he is a noble and "learned" Lord and the notion of legal certainty is extremely important.
I am quite happy to look at the point that has been made here. However, I believe that we are satisfied with the arrangements that we have set out. They are not entirely unfamiliar. Furthermore, we believe that the appeal process provided for is simple enough to be comprehensible and easily understood in those circumstances.
Perhaps all noble Lords will think about what I have said in response to their earlier comments and study the Hansard report. No doubt they shall wish to reflect carefully on the Government's position. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hylton: I am grateful to the Minister for saying that he will consider the point just raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill. In the course of that consideration, will he reflect on the need for the Secretary of State to publicise any decision which has immediate effect so that people in the wider society do not unwittingly commit acts that become offences, but which previously were not offences?
Lord Goodhart: It is not my intention to press this matter to a vote today. However, it is likely that we
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shall bring back these amendments in a varied form on Report. However, for the time being I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 21 to 26 not moved.]
Clause 5 agreed to.
Schedule 3 [The Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission]:
[Amendments Nos. 27 to 30 not moved.]
Schedule 3 agreed to.
Clause 6 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 31 not moved.]
Clause 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [Section 7: Scotland and Northern Ireland]:
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 32:
Page 4, line 34, leave out subsection (1).
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 32 although I do not wish to press it tonight. The amendment has been tabled in order to ask the Minister if the Scottish Parliament has been consulted here. I am aware that matters of antiterrorism and the other principal matters contained in this Bill are reserved matters for the Westminster Parliament and the Government of the United Kingdom. However, these proposals have effects on the Scottish judicial system, which is a devolved matter. It therefore seems proper for the Scottish Parliament, not only the Scottish Executive, to be consulted about these matters. I have tabled the amendments in order to ask whether that is so.
Lord Bach: The answer to the noble Lord's question is that the Scottish Executive has been consulted, but not the Scottish Parliament. I shall go into a little more detail if the noble Lord requires me to do so. This is obviously a probing amendment and we appreciate it.
These amendments would have the effect of removing from the Bill the application to Scotland of the appeal right in Clause 7, and the provisions for forfeiture and restraint orders in Schedule 4. We have assumed that these are probing amendments; otherwise they would be wrecking amendments. They must be one or the other.
As noble Lords are aware, terrorism is a matter reserved to the Westminster Parliament, under Head B8 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998. To deal first with Amendment No. 32, subsection (1) of Clause 8 makes the necessary applications to Scotland of the provisions of Clause 7. Those provisions are concerned with, as subsection (1) of Clause 7 states, a situation where, first, an appeal under Clause 5 to the proscribed organisations appeal commission against a refusal to de-proscribe an organisation has been allowed by the commission; secondly, an order has been made under Clause 3(3) to remove the name of the organisation from the list in Schedule 2; thirdly, a person has been convicted of an offence in respect of the organisation under various clauses of the Bill; and,

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fourthly, the activity to which the charge referred took place on or after the date of the refusal to refuse to de-proscribe an organisation.
These are all matters concerned with the subject matter of terrorism. They are not concerned in any way with the general principles of Scots criminal law. In fact, subsection (1) of Clause 8 is an example of the provision referred to in Section 29(4) of the Scotland Act; that is, it is a provision which relates to the reserved matter of terrorism; it modifies Scots criminal law in relation to that reserved matter of terrorism and should therefore be treated itself as relating to the reserved matter of terrorism.
In all respects, subsection (1) of Clause 8 is properly included in the Bill as relating exclusively to the reserved matter of terrorism. To remove that subsection would be to deny persons in Scotland essential elements of the commission remedy which will he available in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Turning to Amendment No. 42, under Clause 23 the Scottish court which convicts a person of an offence under any of Clauses 15 to 18 may make a forfeiture order —that is an order whereby money or other property of the offender is ordered by the court to be forfeited, where that money or property was in the possession or under the control of the offender at the time of the offence. Part II of Schedule 4 sets out in detail for Scotland how forfeiture orders are to work in general and in particular circumstances.
Part II of Schedule 4 therefore contains detailed provision for the purposes of Clause 23, which in turn depends on a person having been convicted under any of Clauses 15 to 18 of the Bill. I shall not go through each of the offences set out in the four clauses.
It is clear that each of the offences to which Clause 23 and Schedule 4 apply is an offence relating to terrorism. A glance at the Bill shows that. Under the section of the Scotland Act to which I have referred, terrorism is, of course, reserved to this Parliament. It is therefore proper that provisions for Scotland comparable to the provisions being made for England, Wales and Northern Ireland elsewhere in Schedule 4 to the Bill should be included the Bill.
It would not be within the competence of the Parliament at Holyrood to deal with this matter, and I am sure that noble Lords would not wish that no provision were made for Scotland in respect of forfeiture orders.
The answer to the noble Lord's question is that the executive has been consulted. I know that I have given rather a full answer, but it perhaps explains how the Bill fits in with the reserved powers.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: The Minister has indeed given a full answer, but that does not mean to say that it is satisfactory. I fully understand that terrorism is a reserved matter. However, these provisions lay down time limits in various cases in the Scottish courts, and the judicial system is a devolved matter. However, I do not propose to press the matter at this stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clauses 9 and 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Membership]:
8.45 p.m.
Lord Skelmersdalehad given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 33:
Page 6, line 36, leave out paragraph (b).
The noble Lord said: Tempted though I am, I shall not move the amendment.
[Amendments Nos. 33 and 34 not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 11 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Avebury: I should like to reinforce what was said earlier about the case that I outlined of an order being made by the Secretary of State under Clause 3 and treated as a matter of urgency as a result of the provisions in Clause 122(4).
Perhaps I may illustrate the point. You are a member of an organisation that has functioned perfectly legally in the United Kingdom up until this point. At 10 o'clock one morning the Secretary of St ate makes an order which he deems to be urgent proscribing that organisation. You are then committing an offence if you carry out any of the acts mentioned in Clauses 14 to 23. Your only defence, under Clause 11, is if you can prove that you became a member of the organisation at a time when it was not proscribed. But, in addition, you have to prove that you took no part in the activities of the organisation at the time when it was proscribed. So any act that you have committed between the moment when the Secretary of State made the order and your coming to the knowledge of it by reason of the Secretary of State within 40 days having laid an order before Parliament, is liable to prosecution; and if you are convicted you may be sentenced to prison for 10 years.
It is a very serious matter to prosecute someone for an act that he did not know was criminal at the time he was committing it and to make him liable to a sentence of imprisonment. I really do think that the Minister has not given sufficient thought to the implications of Clause 122(4) and its repercussions with reference to earlier clauses in the Bill, particularly Clause 11, which provides for extremely serious penalties to be imposed on a person for being a member of an organisation and taking any part whatsoever in its activities. Is that provision really what the Committee wants in the Bill?
Lord Hylton: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, on the point he has just made. However, my concern relates to Clause 11(2) placing the burden of proof entirely on the defendant, who must prove absolutely the various points set out. I wonder whether the Government would be happy to accept, at the next stage of the Bill, an amendment using some lesser

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words—for example, "to show", which would not require such a high standard of proof. As presently drafted, the provision seems draconian.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Perhaps I may add another question to the multiple-choice examination that we have inflicted upon the Minister. Might the Government seek to solve the problem by accepting that under Clause 11(1) guilty knowledge is necessary; in other words, that a person commits an offence if he knowingly belongs or professes to belong to a proscribed organisation? That would take care of the problem raised by my noble friend.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: Clause 11(2) contains a defence to cover the very rare and specific set of circumstances in which a person becomes a member of an organisation before it is proscribed and has played no part in it after its proscription. To all intents and purposes the person has left the organisation, although that may not be possible in the circumstances. Normally, it is an offence to be a member of a proscribed organisation and no distinction is drawn between active and passive membership, but in the interests of justice this provision makes an exception in the specific case that I have set out. Having made an exception to the general rule that membership per se is an offence, it seems reasonable that the onus should be on the defendant to make the case that he or she has not played an active part in the organisation. As I understand it, there have been no prosecutions for this offence since 1990. In the period 1991 to 1998 only 90 people have been convicted of the offence in Northern Ireland.
It is important to ensure that there is power for proscription to take effect immediately. If an organisation pursues an active campaign of terrorism in this country the public will expect it to be made illegal now, not given a warning that it needs to argue the case on appeal. In general Clause 11 makes it an offence to belong or profess to belong to a proscribed organisation. That provision is modelled on legislation with which we are very familiar: Section 2 of the Prevention of Terrorism Act and Section 30(1)(a) of the emergency provisions Act. There is a defence. The issues have been made clear and understood. But it is important to have the flexibility that we have sought to provide in the legislation. While I have listened carefully to the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Avery, the Government believe that they have got the balance right in Clause 11.
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 [Support]:
Lord Goodhart Lord Goodhart moved Amendment No. 35:
Page 7. line 9, leave out paragraph (c).
The noble Lord said: Under Clause 12(2) a person commits an offence if, among other things, he arranges a meeting which he knows,
"is to be addressed by a person who belongs or professes to belong to a proscribed organisation".
The purpose of Amendment No. 35 is to delete that part of the clause. A meeting can include one of only three people. It will, therefore, be an offence under Clause 12(2) for a person to arrange a meeting with members of a proscribed organisation to try to persuade them to give up terrorism. It will be an offence for a journalist to arrange a meeting with two members of a proscribed organisation in order to obtain information for the purposes of the media. Apart from Crown privilege, it would even be an offence for members of the Government to meet members of the IRA. Subject to parliamentary privilege, it would make it an offence for my noble friend Lord Alderdice to manage any meeting of the Northern Ireland Assembly since that body undoubtedly includes members of the IRA.
We do not object to those parts of Clause 12(2) which make it an offence to arrange a meeting to support or further the activities of a proscribed organisation. However, we object to Clause 12(2)(c). Amendment No. 36 raises a similar point in respect of Clause 12(3) under which a person commits an offence if he addresses a meeting which he knows is to be addressed by a member of a proscribed organisation. Therefore, a person who speaks at a meeting in order to denounce the proscribed organisation is still guilty of an offence. We do not regard Clause 12 as acceptable as it stands.
Lord Hylton: I support the pair of amendments to which the noble Lord has spoken. The amendments do something to reduce the over-wide drafting of the Bill as it stands. The kinds of people who could be caught by the Bill as it stands would include those who went to a meeting specifically to condemn violence or criminal activity, or simply to put the other side of an argument. The provision is also likely to catch negotiators, mediators and go-betweens of one kind or another who probably genuinely seek to resolve a conflict or defuse a situation. I hope that the Government will consider this matter very fully.
Lord Skelmersdale: Surely, that is the case only if one ignores subsection (4) which provides:
"in subsections (2) and (3) 'meeting' means a meeting of three or more persons".
That cannot possibly catch a go-between.
Lord Goodhart: Of course it can. If the go-between meets two members of the IRA that is a meeting of three people.
Lord Hylton: A completely innocent person such as the custodian or caretaker of a hall is potentially at risk.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I have added my name to my noble friend's amendment. The most serious concern of Justice, of whose council and executive I declare an interest as a member, is that the restrictions placed on free speech and freedom of assembly by Clause 12 violate the human rights standards in the European convention. The reasons have been given by

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all noble Lords who have spoken so far. The effect of the provisions is that those who organise meetings and share the platform with supporters of a proscribed organisation to debate with them, or even to oppose the actions of the proscribed organisation, can themselves be liable to a criminal charge, which is quite absurd. It is absurd because there is no requirement that a speaker at the meeting should promote any terrorist cause or express any sympathy with it in order to be liable to prosecution.
Various examples can be given and most have already been cited. I add two more for good measure. If General de Chastelain held a press conference with a member of a terrorist organisation to announce a decommissioning initiative he could potentially be breaking the law if the clause as it stands is retained. If a journalist organised an interview with a number of members of a proscribed organisation to inform the public and contribute to the debate, under the Bill he or she could be liable to prosecution. If a victim of terrorist violence addresses a meeting at which he knows members of a terrorist organisation will be present in an attempt to persuade them to abandon violence he also incurs the risk of prosecution under Clause 12.
The Home Secretary insisted in another place that Clause 12 would be applied selectively and with discretion by the Director of Public Prosecutions, but nothing in the Bill imposes any limitation. One of the problems of Clause 12, which that does not deal with, is that it has an inevitable chilling effect. Whatever may be the policy of the DPP, the threat of prosecution and the substantial penalty under Clause 12 could hinder effective democratic debate and interfere with the freedom of expression and assembly rights of a wide range of individuals. That plays into the hands of terrorism and violates elementary principles of the rule of law and the effective protection of human rights.
Lord Avebury: These provisions could affect the work of reputable organisations in the United Kingdom which are concerned with conflict resolution. I shall refer to just two of them. International Alert and Conciliation Resources are concerned with trying to solve the conflicts in other parts of the world. In order to do so, they invite and hold discussions with protagonists in their offices. In the past I have been present at some of those discussions.
Let us suppose that one is interested in the problems of Sudan where civil war has been raging for years. One invites members of the Sudan People's Liberation Army to a meeting in London for the purposes of ascertaining whether there are any grounds on which progress can be made with the Government's ideas on devolution and federalism. If the SPLA was an organisation proscribed under the Bill, those activities would become illegal.
We should do well not to focus as narrowly as we have done on the Irish dimension. We have to envisage a situation in which a number of organisations, engaged in armed opposition to their own governments, are proscribed. I sought earlier to elicit
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from the Minister under which principles those organisations would come in the terms of the Bill. The noble Lord was unwilling to discuss whether the United States State Department list would be used as a model. That is an extensive list. If we were to adopt it and proscribe all the organisations on it, there would be a great many illegal bodies operating within the United Kingdom.
However, let us suppose that we have a different list. The noble Lord seemed to indicate that we would not be too bothered about whether or not the Americans deemed an organisation to be terrorist. The problem then is that an organisation may be terrorist in one country but not another. That does not seem in conformity with the efforts made over the past years to gain concerted international action to deal with terrorism wherever it occurs.
In one way or another, we are in difficulties. Those difficulties arise mainly from the fact that we do not know how the powers will be used. The Government appear unwilling to tell us the extent to which they will go in banning organisations which have operated lawfully for many years in the United Kingdom. I wish the Government would go a little further in what they are prepared to say. Otherwise the Committee is in some difficulty.
9 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I have listened to the points raised by Members of the Committee. As I understand the argument, if we did not accept the amendments we would somehow end up locking up General de Chastelain and the noble Lord. Lord Alderdice. We would interfere with well respected organisations such as International Alert which seek to resolve conflict. We would be exercising heavy and draconian powers if such absurd situations were in some way to come to light.
The noble Lord, Lord Lester, put his finger on the point. He referred back to the words of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. Of course, the Director of Public Prosecutions will exercise carefully and sensitively his discretion on how this part of the legislation will operate. But if we accepted the amendments it would delete a potentially serious offence of arranging or managing, or assisting in arranging or managing, a meeting by a person who knows that the meeting is to be addressed,
"by a person who belongs or professes to belong to a proscribed organisation".
In other words, someone acts as a facilitator to provide a proscribed organisation—we only proscribe organisations in extremis—with that important element of support, the oxygen of publicity.
I am confident that noble Lords, in particular those on the Liberal Democrat Benches, do not wish to do that. I believe that they make the clause more draconian than it is. We cannot tell how the provision will work until it is used but I am confident that it will be used sparingly. I am well aware of the arguments raised by Justice: that the clause should be remodelled

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because it could have potential to hinder political debate and freedom of assembly. But that is not the Government's intention.
In another place we undertook to consider the "addressing" issue. We sought to find some way to construe the term to cover mere speaking. We have considered the point carefully. Clause 12(4) makes it clear that meetings may be private or public and may involve three or more people. So "sharing a platform"—it is one of the terms suggested—could give the wrong flavour.
We have a difficult balance to strike. We have perhaps been cautious in the exercise of the powers contained in the clause. But we believe that we have got the balance right. But where a prosecution is brought under Clause 12, it will be open to any accused to raise any convention rights in his defence under Section 7(1)(b) of the Human Rights Act 1998 which will have come fully into force.
I doubt whether the noble Lords who tabled the amendments will be persuaded by what I have said. However, in giving the issue their careful consideration, they perhaps seek to view the clauses in their worst light. I am confident that the clauses will not be interpreted and used in the way suggested. We must ensure that we get matters right in the provisions dealing with proscribed organisations.
I hope that the noble Lord will reflect on what I have said and withdraw the amendment.
Lord Goodhart: I accept that in all probability the Director of Public Prosecutions would exercise his discretion in such a way as to prevent anyone who acts broadly in the public interest in meeting with members of a terrorist organisation from being prosecuted under Clause 12. However, no one who does that in the public interest should be forced to rely on the exercise of a discretion. The fact that someone is placed potentially in the position of having to rely on the DPP's discretion in order to avoid a prosecution shows fairly clearly, I believe, that there is something wrong with Clause 12.
We shall not press the amendment to a vote on this occasion, but I believe that it is almost certainly an issue that we shall bring back on Report. I hope that on that occasion the Minister will be able to enlarge on why he believes that, as it now stands, it is compliant with the convention rights under the Human Rights Act. However, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 36 not moved.]
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Uniform]:
Lord Skelmersdale Lord Skelmersdale moved Amendment No. 37:
Page 7, line 29, leave out subsection (2).
The noble Lord said: I tabled this amendment in order to ask a question to which I suspect I should know the answer and it should not take very long. Clause 13(2) states:
"A constable in Scotland may arrest a person without a warrant …"
Why only in Scotland, or is it automatically a police power in England? I beg to move.
Lord Bach: The purpose of subsection (2) is to give a constable in Scotland power to arrest without a warrant where he suspects that a person is guilty of an offence under Clause 13(1). This is not a novel provision for Scotland. It simply repeats subsection (2) of Section 3 of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 and, before that, comparable provisions in earlier prevention of terrorism Acts.
Express provision is required for Scotland since, at common law, the power of a constable to arrest without a warrant for statutory offences is not clear. We believe that subsection (2) provides the necessary clarity. This can be compared with the fact that no such provision is required in Clause 13 for England and Wales because, under the general arrest provisions of Section 25 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, a constable would have the power to arrest without a warrant. As the noble Lord knows, PACE does not apply to Scotland.
Therefore, subsection (2) is necessary for Scotland in order to put beyond doubt a Scottish constable's powers of arrest and to ensure consistency with the position in England and Wales.
Lord Skelmersdale: I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. As I said, I should have known the answer but did not. However, it raises a more general point upon which I would ask the noble Lord and, indeed, the whole of his department to reflect. Periodically, this provision appears in Bills. Would it not be far more sensible if one changed the whole of Scottish law to take account of that? I do not expect an answer now. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Cope of Berkeley Lord Cope of Berkeley moved Amendment No. 38:
Page 7, line 32, after ("liable") insert—
("(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year, or a tine, or both, or
(b)").
The noble Lord said: Clause 13 concerns the wearing of uniform or other articles of clothing, and so on, by terrorists. This is deeply offensive. It takes place sometimes at funerals and sometimes on other occasions. It is particularly offensive to victims of the organisations concerned.
So far as concerns the court case which should follow if someone is accused of the offence, in putting the clause into the Bill the Government have a choice of following either the Prevention of Terrorism Act, which provides only for summary conviction in such cases, or of following the emergency provisions Act,

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which provides that in important and repeated cases the accused can be charged on indictment. It seemed to me that it was at least worth asking why they had followed the PTA instead of the EPA and to suggest that they might like to preserve the stronger penalty in this case, as they have done in several of the preceding clauses which relate to other similar offences. I beg to move.
Lord Avebury: Once again, the noble Lord, Lord Cope, has underlined the point that I have been seeking to make: that is, what was suitable and appropriate in the conditions in Northern Ireland may no longer be so in a Bill that extends the scope of its provisions to a large number of organisations which in future are to be proscribed by the Secretary of State and of which we have no knowledge at the moment.
I accept entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Cope, said about the offensiveness of using symbols and colours in such a way as to insult the victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland. When we consider what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom, what we are saying is that an organisation may be banned here and that from that point onwards a person who wears or displays an article that arouses reasonable suspicion even I hat he is a member is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, which the noble Lord, Lord Cope, wishes to raise to one year.
I mention the PPK at random—it happens to be one of those organisations treated as terrorists by the United States, and I keep referring back to the State Department list because we have no other way of knowing what organisations the Secretary of State may proscribe in the future—and considering the disapproval of the PPK which has been evinced by the Government in the past, it might well be a prime candidate for proscribing. Let us suppose that a person does have an article such as a hold-all which displays the PM(colours and he attends a meeting which discusses Kurdish matters. The police, viewing him at the meeting and deciding that there are circumstances which arouse reasonable suspicion that he is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation by reason of the fact that he is displaying its colours—even though it might be something he bought in a shop that happens to coincide with the colours of the PPK—put two and two together. They have reasonable suspicion from his display of that article that he is a member of the proscribed organisation. He is committing an offence that could result in his imprisonment for six months or, as the noble Lord, Lord Cope, would have it, a year. I think that what may be appropriate in the circumstances in Northern Ireland is not, from now onwards, going to be appropriate in a situation where a number of organisations, which are deemed to be terrorist from an international point of view, become proscribed by the Secretary of State.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Bach: Proscribed organisations are, to use a cliche, "beyond the pale". They are out of bounds. That is why they have been made proscribed organisations. That is the answer to the point made by
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the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. It does not matter whether they come from Northern Ireland or, in the future, from anywhere else. Of course, if the person involved could be prosecuted on the basis that carrying the article aroused reasonable suspicion that he was a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation, and that person, having been charged and brought before a court and having pleaded guilty or having been found guilty, then argued that he did not realise it, it is very unlikely, it seems to me, if the court accepted the explanation, that the person would go anywhere near a prison. One has to remember that what we are talking about in this amendment is the maximum sentence and not the minimum sentence because any sentence is at large less than the maximum for an offence like this.
I turn to the amendment we are discussing. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cope, that this clause replicates an offence which appears in the two Acts about which we have talked so much, the prevention of terrorism Act and the emergency provisions Act. The prevention of terrorism Act version of the offence, which has effect in Great Britain, is a summary-only offence with the maximum six months imprisonment. The emergency provisions Act version, which has effect in Northern Ireland., is an either-way offence with maximum penalty on indictment of a year's imprisonment.
In consolidating our anti-terrorist legislation, the Government clearly had to address the issue that an identical offence had a different maximum penalty under different legislation. Were we to go up or down? Everyone agrees that the wearing of such garments or wearing, carrying or displaying such an article is deeply offensive and, at its worst, calls for a custodial sentence. No one in your Lordships' House. I believe, has argued against that.
But I need to point out that this offence has been used only rarely in recent years. Records suggest that there have been only two prosecutions in Northern Ireland since 1991, both of which led to convictions, and there have been no prosecutions in Great Britain for the same period. That is not to suggest that the offence is not important. There are indications that its very existence has a deterrent effect. We believe it is right that those who wear clothing or insignia linked directly to a proscribed group should remain liable to prosecution.
But given the infrequent use of the offence, it would be difficult to argue that there is a strong case for setting the penalty at a higher level. There is certainly no suggestion that a lower penalty level has been an insufficient deterrent. I remind the Committee that that applies to Great Britain where there have been no prosecutions. That would usually be the reason to increase a penalty; that it had a greater deterrent effect.
We are not persuaded that the higher penalty is required. The arguments are nicely balanced. We do not say that it was an easy decision to reach. But we believe that we made the right decision and that six months is appropriate as a maximum for this unpleasant offence.

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Having heard our reasons, I hope that the noble Lord will consider what we have said and will withdraw the amendment.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: As the Minister emphasised, the importance of this offence is as much in its deterrent effect as anything. It is because of its deterrent effect that the offenders are difficult to catch in the act. They do their best to make sure that they are not caught in the act. They appear sometimes in Northern Ireland very briefly—at funerals, for example.
However, as the Minister acknowledged, the maximum penalty has been reduced in Northern Ireland in attempt to level out the matter. I am not sure
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that I personally agree with that. The noble Lord did not give a reason but said that it is a question of balance. Nevertheless, I shall not pursue the issue at this stage and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13 agreed to.
Lord Bach: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.
House adjourned at twenty-two minutes past nine o'clock.