HL Deb 15 May 2000 vol 613 cc12-36

3.20 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Social Security (Baroness Hollis of Heigham)

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Baroness Hollis of Heigham.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair.]

Clause 19 [Reduced benefit decisions]:

Lord Higgins

moved Amendment No. 94: Page 20, leave out lines 12 to 15. The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 94 I shall speak also to the amendments grouped with it standing in my name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Russell.

Amendment No. 94 is concerned with "reduced benefit decisions" in relation to the payment of child support. Effectively, we on this side of the House are strongly in favour of more effective measures to ensure that those responsible for having children seek to meet the payments to finance them. Generally speaking, there are a whole series of penalties, but this particular penalty is unusual in stating that should a mother decline to provide information to the Child Support Agency on the grounds that if she were to do so she would be in danger of violence from the absent parent arrangements will be made to impose a penalty upon her. We are concerned whether that is appropriate.

The jargon used is whether she has good cause for not seeking child support—which would result in the cost of the children falling on the Exchequer or the National Insurance Fund—and, effectively, it suggests that she should not do that. As a result, the department or the Child Support Agency will seek to establish whether or not there is good cause in a particular case.

We propose the amendments because of representations we have received, for example, from the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, which has many people dealing with these kinds of cases. It suggests that decisions to reduce the benefit of the parent with care because she has not co-operated with the department and has instead made excuses—for instance, that she would suffer violence—are not infrequently incorrect, unreasonable and inappropriate.

Coming from the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, this is strong language. The association therefore goes along with the recommendations made by the Social Security Select Committee in another place that the application of the reduced benefit penalty should be suspended over a phasing-in period and that the operation of the present scheme should be reviewed. Perhaps the second recommendation is fairly formidable; I understand that some 28,000 decisions have been made in regard to reduced benefit.

The other matter which gives cause for concern is the way in which the severity of this particular penalty has escalated over time. If we go back to 1993, the penalty was open to revision in the light of changed circumstances and the number of cases was at a comparatively low level. Since 1996, the severity of the penalty has increased considerably and there seems to be some argument for reviewing the arrangement. That is the essence of the case. We look forward to hearing the Minister's response. I beg to move.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask him which government were responsible for the changes in 1996.

Lord Higgins

Certainly the previous government were responsible. That is why we can reasonably argue that, given the space of time since then, one should take into account the overall situation; the representations one has received; and, in particular, one's experience of the way in which the system is working. The more recent evidence seems to indicate that it is not working as satisfactorily as one would wish. These are essentially probing amendments. We wish to get the Government's reaction to the considerable number of recent cases put forward by the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux.

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham)

As Amendments Nos. 96 to 98, 101 and 102 are also being spoken to, I must point out to the Committee that if Amendment No. 96 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 97 and 98; and if Amendment No. 101 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 102.

Baroness Massey of Darwen

Amendments to or the removal of Clause 19 would be a retrograde step. A reduction or time-limiting delay of the benefit penalty would be counter-productive.

The whole emphasis of the Bill—this was stressed during last week's proceedings and has been supported by a number of agencies which seek to help children—is to tackle child poverty. What is good for the child is of prime importance.

Clause 19 concerns benefit penalties for parents with care who are on income support or on income-based jobseeker's allowance and who, without good cause, ask the Secretary of State not to act to recover child support; or fail to provide relevant information; or refuse to take a scientific test.

Child support cannot be a voluntary option of whether or not to involve the CSA or whether to rely on benefit provided by taxpayers, many of whom are themselves parents supporting children. Many thousands of children would not receive the maintenance due to them. The only parents affected by sanctions are either those who face no risk and prefer to rely on benefits, or those who refuse to tell the DSS why they are opting out.

The penalty provision needs to be retained. It would not be fair on children if parents were allowed to prevent the recovery of child support; it would not be fair on the parents who do support their children; and it would not be fair on the taxpayer.

Of course, sanctions should be avoided wherever possible. Parents with care must be clearly told about their rights; they must not receive a benefits sanction by accident. However, low sanctions for a short time, such as those suggested, may not be enough to encourage parents with care to co-operate with the CSA. Delaying the introduction of penalties would mean that many parents with care would not seek child maintenance. Clause 19 as it stands seems to offer protection to parents and children. It should not be tampered with.

3.30 p.m.

Earl Russell

The noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, is on her first child support Bill. Welcome to the club. I am now on my third. In 1991, I succeeded in deleting the whole provision of the benefit penalty. The "good cause" provision was the sop put in by another place to keep me quiet. It may have reduced the volume of my voice somewhat; it has not kept me quiet.

I cannot help thinking, on the record of the CSA since 1991, that Clause 19 and the measures preceding it have done a great deal more to increase child poverty than to diminish it. So I ask the Minister: in the light of the Government's pledge to abolish child poverty within 20 years, how will they abolish child poverty while depriving the mother of 40 per cent of her income? There seems to me a certain Gilbertian element of paradox about that suggestion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, said that all that is needed is for the mothers to comply. That reminds me a little of the argument of the ill-fated General Stockwell, who commanded the British intervention in Port Said during the Suez campaign. When challenged on the level of casualties in Port Said, General Stockwell said it was all the fault of the Egyptians who would insist on defending themselves.

The Government here are intruding into some of the most sensitive areas of private life and into some of the strongest personal emotions which become stirred in the whole complicated history of the relations of the sexes. It is an area in which the Government, by rule of thumb, assume they must be right and that everybody has to comply. If only the world were that simple. The Government here are out of their element—and, when I say the Government, I make no political point. We have here, even more than in most other areas of policy, a situation where the Court and Treasury Party is always in office, no matter which political colours it may wear and the Country Party is always in opposition, no matter which political colours it may wear. It is my contention that the Court and Treasury Party here has it fundamentally wrong. It has overrated the limits of its competence and is attempting to tackle matters which it really cannot handle.

We have here a large group of amendments. The first ones to which the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, has spoken put forward a proposal which emanates from the Social Security Select Committee in another place—a two year deferral of the operation of the benefit penalty in order to see whether, in the light of the Minister's achievement, on which I again warmly congratulate her in introducing the maintenance disregard, a carrot might prove rather more effective than a stick. I support that approach with the sole rider that, if we had a rather bigger carrot—and I have an amendment down to that purpose—it might work a little better. If the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, should choose to go beyond probing and press those amendments, we would support them.

With regard to the other group—the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, and we have down identical amendments. That is a waste of paper that I think we should not repeat. The amendments seek to go back to the level of deductions which were originally introduced in 1991 and to go back once more to the duration of deductions. The new one is for three years and may be renewed ad infinitum. In the briefings from the CAB, we have one which had been running since 1994—five years—before the parent with care discovered what it was all about. She supposed that it was for poll tax arrears. That is the danger of an indefinite provision.

Here, too, we are of one mind and, whichever of our amendments goes forward, we would support it. My ambitions go further. I want, as I have wanted since 1991, to abolish the benefit penalty altogether. I have three reasons for wishing to do that. First, it is draconian; secondly, it is outside the area of the Government's competence and, thirdly, it is ineffective or—and in my view this is equally bad—effective in the wrong cases.

Whenever one discusses any of these policies designed to deter people, like the use of prescription charges to deter people from claiming unnecessary prescriptions, it is always the wrong people who are deterred. The genuinely ill are deterred and the hypochondriacs are not deterred by anything. So, if the penalty is producing compliance—I hope the Minister may enlighten us a little more on the extent to which it is—then we have no reason to suppose that it is producing compliance in those cases where it ought to be producing compliance. We know it is producing compliance in a number of cases where, for the mother's own safety, there ought not to be compliance.

A 40 per cent reduction in income support is a fairly draconian penalty. I shall not take us again through all the argument about the Acheson report, the Medical Research Council and the rest. The Minister knows that I have considerable doubts about the claims of income support to be even so much as a subsistence benefit. If you have only 60 per cent of income support, that is a benefit on which I think legal subsistence is extremely difficult.

We have one case here which was referred to in an article in the Independent a few weeks ago where a mother was found to be stealing nappies from the supermarket because she could not afford to buy them. I do not see what that does to reduce child poverty. We have another case which comes from the CAB of a mother who was subjected to a reduced benefit directive and was unable to buy her youngest son's school uniform with the result that he was excluded from the school.

The Minister should not so blithely assume that her policy is for the benefit of children. I know it is so intended, but the Minister knows what paves the road to hell. I think her confidence in this is entirely misplaced. My greatest concern is that, in dealing with these raw emotions, the Government are in an area where they are not a competent judge and where material penalties are not necessarily a suitable deterrent.

The emotions raised by a relationship break-up can be extremely strong. All that the Government can put in the scale against it is material penalty. In some of the cases with which we are dealing, that is a very light feather to put in the scales against the intensity of emotion which is aroused. I have never thought of the Minister as a "Material Girl" but, in this context, I think that is all that she can claim to be. There is no room in the CSA's calculations for feelings. In fact, there is practically no right to have any feelings other than those prescribed by statute.

Of course, the feelings that result from relationship break-down are not always rational. I would not for a moment attempt to pretend that they were. First, the Government are not competent to judge which feelings are rational and which are not—they do not have the evidence—and, secondly, even supposing that the feelings are not rational, those are perhaps hardest of all to deter by a mere material penalty.

In 1996, during Mr Andrew Mitchell's tenure of office, the Government undertook a survey—not a particularly good piece of research—in which, out of a sample of 38, 26 people reported that the reduced benefit directive had no impact. Mr Andrew Mitchell chose to take that finding literally and therefore argued that the penalty was not sufficient to deter. I think Mr Mitchell had failed to read between the lines and had failed to recognise language which might have been more accurately transliterated—and I cannot repeat all the words in the Chamber—as …off". People simply did not recognise the right of the state to use this penalty to make them resume a contact which they were absolutely determined to eschew. In fact, the penalty was wide of their area of concern.

Domestic violence is only the tip of that iceberg. I think all governments have been sincere in their attempts to follow the good cause provisions and I welcome that. Of course, the administration is quite another matter. I have already said in the course of this Bill that I think the culture of this country is very far from sufficiently aware of the dangers which domestic violence may pose under the need to preserve confidentiality.

We had one case which was reported recently by the CAB when a client had been threatened by the absent parent and the absent parent even threatened the CSA. Even after that, the CSA refused to recognise that she had good cause. So she suffered the benefit penalty. That is surely a wrong decision on the law as it presently stands. I am delighted to give way to the Minister.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Does the noble Earl then go on to argue, which is the crucial information, that, as a result, the woman then suffered violence?

Earl Russell

No, I do not.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Can the noble Earl give me any instance in which, to his certain knowledge, she has?

Earl Russell

When we discussed this matter last week I had seen many such examples. I have not succeeded in tracking them down and therefore must fail to rise to the Minister's challenge for the time being. It is one-nil to the Minister on that as it stands at present. I congratulate her on her determination in following up the points I raised last week. Some of that has come to my attention—not through her. I congratulate her very warmly on it and thank her for it. However, the noble Baroness will not challenge my contention that in this case, if the facts are as alleged, the penalty was wrongly imposed. That does happen. It is a distressingly frequent situation.

I have other cases. The case of Georgina McCarthy, about which my honourable friend Mr George is much concerned, is not an exact direct case in point. Again, it illustrates the weakness of the culture for not being sufficiency aware of the need for confidentiality. But we are in a different area, and a much more difficult one, when we deal with the woman who has fear of violence without direct experience of it. I have in my hand the report prepared by the department in April 1996 which studied a series of model cases. The passage to which I am referring may be found on page 114. It is the case of Miss Rogers. She described a man who had threatened her, often throwing things or thumping the wall in anger. The case study states: She got frightened that he would hurt her one day. She had decided it was time to make a complete break; to end the relationship …and make a new start. She had come to a big city in another area of the country so that 'he will never find me'". That case was decided, having been studied in a seminar as a model case, not to be an example of good cause. I believe that that was mistaken on the law as it stands at present. She may not have offered clear evidence of harm. She had certainly offered clear evidence of undue distress and she had convinced me at least that, whether or not she was found to have good cause, she was not going to co-operate. The penalty would fall wide of its mark.

The Secretary of State here is judge and party in his own cause. That is a big weakness in the legislation. I do not think it is any good setting out to starve mothers into submission as if they were besieged towns. The Minister says that the legislation will never work on a voluntary basis. I say, what I said first on "Bill do now pass" in 1991. Nothing has yet convinced me that I am wrong. The legislation will not work unless it is on a voluntary basis. You can coerce all the people some of the time or you can coerce some of the people all the time; but you cannot coerce all the people all the time.

If this legislation is to work, someone has to be in favour of it. So if it cannot be made to work by applying it only to those mothers who see an advantage to themselves in it, the Government are simply attempting a job of coercion which is beyond their reach. Their eyes are bigger than their stomachs. They will not be the first government to make that mistake and I fear they will not be the last.

3.45 p.m.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

When my noble friend moved the first amendment in this group the noble Baroness seemed to think that he could not do such a thing because the previous government introduced the concept of benefit reduction. I think that, all these years later, my noble friend has every right to read what the citizens advice bureaux are telling us and what the Select Committee has told us and to respond. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, has been completely consistent. He argued against this concept last time round when we legislated for this matter. He has reminded us of that. My noble friend has been extremely sensible and is doing something with which, I am sorry to say, the noble Baroness does not feel she can go along.

It surely is absolutely reasonable to pause for a moment to study the effect of the implementation of maintenance disregard before taking this draconian action which may make it impossible for a person to feed her family. A drop of income of 40 per cent, as was pointed out when the matter was discussed last week, can have a very serious effect on the nutrition of a family. We need not go into that again.

During the remaining proceedings on the Bill I hope that the Minister will not go on accusing my noble friend of criticising something which began during the time of the Conservative government. The circumstances have now been changed by the present Government. It may be a good idea just to pause, as has been asked of us by the Select Committee in another place and by the CABs, to see what the effects will be before the draconian measures are implemented.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

I should like to open my response to this group of amendments by responding to the direct challenge raised by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, as to how I think the proposals in any sense honour the commitment made by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to reduce and then abolish child poverty. Very straightforwardly, the children in this country who are poor are disproportionately the children of lone parents and particularly the children of lone parents where, first, the mother does not go out to work and where, secondly, the father of that child does not pay maintenance. If it is asked what the Government are therefore doing about it, they are seeking to help the mother back into work through the New Deal, the working families' tax credit and the minimum wage. If she feels that it is not right for her to go back to work at this point, she will effectively have had, between April 1997 and October this year, nearly a 100 per cent increase in the income support rates for children under 11, which is a huge increase—from just over £16.80 to around £31 during the course of the first three years of this Government.

We are seeking, first, to encourage her back into work when she feels ready; secondly, to make her benefit levels more generous for children while she is out of the labour market; and, thirdly, to get the maintenance flowing. Together, those are the ways we will springboard those children out of poverty and honour the Prime Minister's commitment. I do not know whether the noble Earl wishes to intervene. No, he accepts what our policy seeks to do. In that sense, what we are seeking to do in terms of getting maintenance flowing is an integral part— not an accidental bolt-on— of seeking to redress the problem of child poverty.

As my noble friend Lady Massey said, Clause 19 is about the benefit penalty for parents with care on income support or income-based JSA who, without good cause, ask the Secretary of State not to act to recover child support or who fail to provide relevant information or refuse to take a scientific test such as DNA. The amendments seek both to reduce and time limit the benefit penalty and to delay its introduction. Amendments Nos. 94. 95, 96, 99 and 101 would make the clause unworkable. Amendments Nos. 102A and 198A seek to remove the clause from the Bill and to repeal Section 46 of the 1991 Act that relates to reduced benefit directions which Clause 19 is replacing.

As my noble friend said, the impact of removing Clause 19—Section 46 of the 1991 Act—would go much further than just removing the penalty. Effectively—the noble Earl, Lord Russell, acknowledged this point—it would make child support a voluntary option by giving the lone parent the choice of whether or not to involve the Child Support Agency or whether simply to rely on benefits provided by the taxpayers many of whom are themselves parents supporting children. I do not believe that low-earning, tax-paying fathers should be required to support the children of other fathers who can, but prefer not to, support their own children. I give way to the noble Earl.

Earl Russell

The logic of that argument would be complete if the Minister could tell us what taxpayers are spending in supporting harm caused by the hardship inflicted on lone parents who suffer the benefit penalty. When the Minister's department monitors that, she can complete the calculation. At present, she does not possess the information, and has admitted as much.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

I think that I can help the noble Earl a little. At present, 85 per cent of lone parents are co-operating with the agency in naming the father. When I took over some responsibility for this portfolio, the figure was only about 30 per cent. The difference between that 30 per cent and 85 per cent, given the premium that is being introduced, is that that number of families and their children are denied the possibility of a £10 maintenance premium. Perhaps the noble Earl will accept and respect the fact that, under the new scheme, by placing the emphasis on getting the woman to name the father and therefore comply with the procedures of the CSA, children will be the direct beneficiaries. The figure has risen from 30 per cent to 85 per cent; I hope that it will be even higher in future.

Earl Russell

I accept the information and I thank the Minister. Before I accept the claim that they are the direct beneficiaries, will the Minister think again about the Gary Craig study of 53 families, which indicated the very high levels of stress caused to families by the operations of the CSA. How does the Minister weigh that against any increase in money? She has given no answer at all to my major question: what is the effect on mothers who suffer the benefit penalty? What hardship do they suffer, and what does that cost the taxpayer? The noble Baroness cannot complete the equation until she can answer that.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

I am only a page and a half into my brief; I was hoping to return to those points. If the noble Earl thinks that I have not answered him fully, I am sure that he will wish to intervene and I shall respect his wish to do so.

I repeat: if we were to follow the noble Earl's proposal and a lone parent decided not to co-operate with the agency, that would mean that many thousands of children would not receive the maintenance due to them which could make a real difference to their lives. Equally importantly, it is more likely rather than less that they will continue to have contact with their natural fathers, which we know is in the best interest of those children.

Children are entitled to the financial as well as the emotional support of both parents. The CSA exists to ensure that non-resident parents meet their responsibility to their children. We believe that children have a right to support and that parents have a duty to provide it. That means, therefore, that child support is not an optional extra. It is right that the benefits system should step in, but only where parents are unable to support their children rather than merely prefer not to do so.

In the new scheme, where child support or income-based JSA pays for children, child support action will follow unless the parent with care refuses to allow that to happen. Those who refuse without good cause face a benefit penalty equivalent to 40 per cent, not of their income support—I should like this point to be corrected—but of the adult amount that is applicable, which is a reduction of about £21 a week; it is not a sanction on the children's element within income support.

The underlying purpose of a reduced benefit direction is to encourage parents with care to apply for child support unless they have good reason not to do so. We believe that a benefit penalty of 40 per cent of the adult applicable amount in income support is probably set at about the right level.

We are conscious of the need to protect vulnerable parents and children. If there are reasonable grounds for believing that the parent with care or any child living with her would suffer harm, no penalty would result. The noble Earl asked why we are not taking feelings into account. We are taking them into account. If we believe that there is undue distress as a result of pursuing child support, no penalty will be imposed. "Distress" does not mean violence, but feelings. Only those parents who choose not to pursue child maintenance and do not have a good reason, or do not tell the DSS why, will have their benefit reduced. But those who will be put at risk or who will suffer undue distress as a result of child support action have nothing to worry about.

I repeat: the only parents who will face a sanction will be those who either face no risk and simply prefer to rely on benefit from other fathers— I have never understood the morality of not receiving support from the particular father but being perfectly happy to have support from other fathers; that point seems morally "iffy"— or those who refuse to tell the DSS why they are opting out.

Lord Higgins

Perhaps the Minister will give way. I am seeking to follow her argument carefully. The position is, indeed, as she has stated it. As I understand it, the dispute is not over the basic argument but over decisions as to whether the adverse circumstances which would result in the benefit reduction exist. The point is whether the decisions are being correctly made, which is why they are described by the CAB as incorrect, unreasonable and inappropriate in a number of cases.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

That is a wider issue. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, would like to see the reduced benefit direction removed altogether. I am seeking to reply to the entire group of amendments. It seemed to me sensible, therefore, to address the bigger issue before coming to some of the more specific points raised. The bigger issue is: what is the justification for having a reduced benefit direction at all?

Earl Russell

Perhaps it may clarify matters if I say that my argument is that, by the nature of the case, a large proportion of the decisions will always be erroneous.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

That is a second order statement. The noble Earl's basic statement is that whether or not the father is named should be optional. He will say that if we compel the mother to do so and she refuses, there will always be a percentage of error. I pressed him to give an instance where pressure by the CSA to require the woman to name the father, when she was reluctant to do so because of fear of violence, had actually resulted in violence. The noble Earl was candid enough to say that he had no such evidence.

I should not wish to say that the CSA gets it right all the time. There may be occasions on which it has applied a reduced benefit direction about which the noble Earl would have some concerns— although, of course, there is an appeals system. Where the alternative is the case— where a parent has been required to name the father even though reluctant to do so because she alleged a fear of violence which the DSS did not accept— I could be wrong, but I have not been made aware of any case, nor I believe has the noble Earl, where as a result the lone parent was subject to the violence that she predicted. That is crucial to the effectiveness of the CSA. There may be cases where the woman has refused to name the father and there may have been a benefit penalty which she or the CAB regards as inappropriately applied, but I do not know of a case where violence has resulted, and that is the test.

As a result, 85 per cent of parents with care and claiming income support now choose to seek maintenance for their children. However, the fact remains that a number of parents with care refuse to co-operate with the CSA without good reason. As I said, they may prefer the taxpayer rather than their former partner to support their children. But I do not believe—here I disagree profoundly with the noble Earl, Lord Russell—that it is a choice that they are entitled to make; namely, that some other father rather than this particular father should support their children.

Equally, there may be other reasons. The woman may have a new partner and fear that if the CSA is involved that may come to light and affect their benefit entitlement; or perhaps in the past she may have done an informal deal with her ex-partner; he may have arranged with the woman that if she refuses to name him and therefore he does not have to pay any maintenance, he, in turn, will recycle back to her some of the maintenance that he has saved. We believe that we need the benefit of penalty provision. It is not fair on children or on taxpayers if we allow parents to prevent the recovery of child support on their behalf. We want to ensure their co-operation, above all for the sake of the children.

The noble Earl was gracious enough to admit that we are trying to strengthen the grounds for reasons for compliance. Under the new scheme, the man's average maintenance payment falls. It is likely to be reduced from about £38 on average to about £31 on average. Therefore, under the new scheme, if the woman failed to name him, she would not only suffer a reduced benefit direction of £21 but would also lose her £10 premium—a loss in total of £31. That means that if it were worth her while doing an informal deal with him, he would have to pay her at least £31 so that she was no worse off, or, in other words, the level of maintenance that he would probably have to pay anyway.

With the best will in the world, we hope that we have constructed a system where financially it is not worth the while of either party to manipulate the system and women will find it attractive to co-operate with the CSA in the best interests of the child. Where we can we wish to avoid imposing a benefit penalty. The number of RBDs in place has fallen, and we hope that that decline will continue. In 1996 the figure was 17,500. The latest figure as of November 1999 was 13,700. That is a significant reduction, and represents only 1.5 per cent of the total number of parents with care on income support.

The noble Lord pressed me to say whether we knew what happened to women who accepted reduced benefit directions. I asked for research to be done not only for my information but because I suspected, quite rightly, that the noble Lord would want to know. The department's research suggests that 70 per cent of those with reduced benefit directions come off the benefits sanction within a month or so. Of those, one-third go into work and are no longer dependent on benefit and therefore it is not a matter for the CSA. One-third re-partner—which many of them may already be doing— and, as a result, decide to take themselves off the books rather than have the matter explored further and possibly lay themselves open to further action. One-third decide to co-operate. Of the remaining 30 per cent, almost all come off sanction within the year.

The noble Earl, Lord Russell, said that the Government were not a competent judge as to whether or not a woman wanted to name the man. I do not see it as a battle between the lone parent and the CSA. Sometimes the lone parent makes the judgment, in my view inadvisedly, not to co-operate and that is not in the best interests of the child. Somebody must decide the matter when there are conflicting interests.

4 p.m.

Earl Russell

What makes the Minister believe that she is a better judge than the parent of the interests of the child?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

All the research available to us suggests that, for example, where lone parents thwart contact— that happens in 42 per cent of cases—that is not in the best interests of the child. Surely, the noble Earl accepts that there will be occasions when, for example, the lone parent has a new partner who wants her to cut all her ties with the former partner, even though the child needs those ties. In those cases her interests as she perceives them and the best interests of the child will be at odds. We believe that where that happens it is the responsibility of government to side with the child, which is what we are doing here. We hope that that does not happen very often, but the noble Earl will accept that that can and does occur. In my experience such cases arise.

I am confident that we are doing all that we can to ensure that there are sufficient safeguards in place so that parents at risk do not suffer accidentally. No one should suffer such a penalty through ignorance. If the woman's circumstances change and she forms a new relationship she may not fully understand the financial implications, for example that she must still seek child maintenance if her new partner is on benefit. For that reason, not only do we seek to set up the system so that financially it is attractive to her, and in her interest, to co-operate; we attempt to back it by improving the quality of advice through the development of the face-to-face service and the opportunities and contacts that she has.

Those who claim good cause are, we believe, treated in an understanding way by staff who are specially trained in the procedures. The training and procedural instructions were designed following considerable consultation with clients and key groups representing lone parents. Therefore, the staff who work with lone parents and seek to determine whether or not good cause is appropriate have been trained in part by the organisations that represent lone parents. We have done everything we possibly can to ensure that that training is professional and that there is an incentive.

It may shock the Committee to learn—this may put noble Lords into the mindset of the issues with which we must deal—that the Government seriously considered the removal of the provision of good cause altogether and making it mandatory for everyone to name, as happens in many European countries and in broad terms in the United States and New Zealand. Those countries have decided that by making it mandatory they can better protect the lone parent and they are more likely to discourage bad behaviour by non-resident parents because they know that they will not avoid maintenance by threatening violence. The NACSA website remains on my mind. I have seen for myself the advice given to men by a men's group: Break a window, send a photo, and you'll avoid maintenance". That advice was given on a website to all men who wished to avoid maintenance. That threat can work precisely because the lone parent normally has a choice and, therefore, can be blackmailed or pressured by her partner not to name him. The man knows that whatever despicable behaviour he engages in will make no difference, as is the case in New Zealand, many other European countries and in part in the United States. In Europe some of that bad behaviour can be checked and is referred to the police.

We seriously considered whether that offered better protection to the lone parent than the policies that we had pursued. However, as a result of the consultation exercise on the Green Paper, I was persuaded that that would send out a wrong signal about domestic violence and that, although it might stop some men, where the man was under the influence of drugs or alcohol the risk might continue and we did not want that.

It is important to bear in mind that parents who do not receive child maintenance will lose any chance of receiving the child maintenance premium. In all, 600,000 children in the poorest families stand to gain over £150 million a year through the maintenance premium, and individual families will be up to £10 a week better off. We hope that that will be real money which goes to children.

Amendment No. 102 would also result in children losing out in child maintenance. This amendment would decrease and time-limit the reduced benefit decisions. Here, what is proposed is a 10 per cent, instead of a 40 per cent, sanction for six months. Before October 1996 when the current sanction of 40 per cent was introduced, there was a sanction of 20 per cent for six months and then 10 per cent for a year. However, at that time around 70 per cent of parents with care initially claimed that they had good cause not to co-operate with the CSA, and of those only about 8 per cent were found to have good cause. No one of whom I am aware whose good cause has been rejected has subsequently gone on to experience violence. I have no evidence to suggest that the CSA has ever made a wrong decision on that.

These figures were a cause for concern and the subject of a report by the Social Security Select Committee in June 1996 which recommended a strengthening of the sanctions. We want a meaningful penalty. Amendment No. 102 would reduce the sanction and time-limit it to six months. The effect would be to reduce the benefit of a parent with care by about £ 5, instead of £20, per week. I do not believe that that would be effective in encouraging the lone parent to co-Operate or that it would be high enough to discourage the manipulation of the benefit system that I have just described.

Amendments Nos. 97 and 98 would delay the introduction of a reduced benefit penalty for two years from the introduction of the child maintenance premium. The underlying purpose of a reduced benefit direction is to encourage parents with care to apply for child support, unless they have good cause for failing to do so. To delay the introduction of this penalty would reduce the incentive and mean that many parents with care would not seek child maintenance. It would also mean that many fathers would be exempt for a period of up to two years from paying maintenance if the woman chose not to name him and, as a result, would not get into the habit of paying. The hope and expectation that after two years' grace he would go on to pay maintenance with willingness seems to be Utopian. I do not know why the figure was chosen. The Social Security Select Committee believed that during the five-year phasing-in period the new incentives should be given a chance to work before the provisions of Clause 19 were brought into effect. We do not believe that that is reasonable.

Amendments Nos. 94, 95, 96, 99 and 101 remove a number of subsections from Clause 19. Their effect is to retain Clause 19 but to make it unworkable. I should like to quote to the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, the words of Mr Pickles in another place at Committee stage on 3rd February. When dealing with a similar amendment moved by the Liberal Democrat Party, he said: I support the Minister". although one would not believe that tonight. He went on: Legislation is about the support of children, and one cannot opt out of that unless there is an adequate reason"— for example, good cause— why the taxpayer should bear that burden. People have occasionally been content to accept both benefit and a little extra money. It is important to ensure that the CSA is respected. I have never come across a case in which the CSA has gone too far". Amendments Nos. 102A and 198A seek to remove Clause 19 from the Bill. They also repeal the existing legislation on reduced benefit directions and take them out of the child support system.

I think that it would be deeply unfair, to taxpayers, other fathers and, above all, to children, to make child support voluntary, which is what the removal of RBDs would do, and to transfer the responsibility to other fathers—not that particular father, but generalised other fathers—to take on the care of those children. Why should some non-resident parents walk away from their responsibilities without good cause and, frankly, place those same responsibilities on other people who, because they are taxpayers, cannot protest about it? I do not believe that child support should be voluntary. The cluster of these amendments, subject to the provisions I have made with the noble Lord opposite, would make it voluntary. We know that the failure to pay child maintenance is bad for the financial and the emotional health of the child. Therefore, if Members of the Committee are on the side of the child, they will join me today in urging the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

4.15 p.m.

Earl Russell

If the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, will forgive me, perhaps I may say that I understand the Minister's concern about non-resident parents walking away from their responsibilities. I suggest that in many cases the Minister is pursuing that concern at the expense of the child. The Minister thinks in categories. She thinks in averages. I ask the noble Baroness to read Hansard tomorrow and to ask herself how many times she has used the phrase "the child". One child is not like another. The average child is quite a rare animal. The Minister has great confidence that she is able to judge the interests of this mythical child better than the parent.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Can the noble Earl cite me any child who would not be better off if the family were not receiving maintenance? I think that it is perfectly proper to generalise in that respect.

Earl Russell

Perhaps the Minister could consider the possibility that although material matters are important, a child's interests may not be a matter of material factors alone. The happiness of the environment, the sense of safety and peace, and the avoidance of being in the middle of a game of battledore and shuttlecock may matter to a child. Money matters, but it is not the only factor. Until we take that on board, we cannot have a serious debate.

I ask the Minister one final question. She will not think it material, but I shall ask her before answering it to pause for one deep breath long enough to wonder why I think that it is material. Let us suppose that the Minister is on benefit and is threatened with a benefit penalty of this size if she does not join the Conservative Party. Would she do so?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

I would have considerable difficulty in doing so. If I may say so, that is not a helpful analogy. Normally, I am full of admiration for the stories the noble Earl brings. But to suggest that if I fail to pay I could expect to suffer violence from the Conservative Party seems unlikely; undue distress, maybe, but violence—surely not.

Earl Russell

Does the Minister understand that a single parent may believe that it is contrary to her conscience to do what the Government require of her?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

No. The noble Earl will have to help me. We may have different understandings of the word "conscience". I can understand, as I said, that many lone parents would prefer a clean break, with nothing to do with the individual father and, in particular if there is a new partner on the scene, would like him out of her life and to have another father support the child. I do not think that that is a choice she is entitled to make. It is not in the best interests of the child, of taxpayers and, sometimes, of the non-resident parent father.

I do not accept the word "conscience". All that I understand by the word "conscience" means that I support those who are not autonomous adults against the often perverse will of autonomous adults; that is, I support children.

Lord Davies of Coity

Perhaps I may follow on from the noble Earl, Lord Russell. I understand the argument he advances in respect of the interests of the child. I do not think that any of us would depart from that interest.

However, we also have to recognise that there are conflicting interests. We are addressing the interests of the child, the parent who looks after the child, the parent who is absent, the question of the responsibility under the Child Support Agency and the benefit provided by the state. Those are conflicting interests which have to be addressed.

Clause 19 gives a degree of flexibility which enables each and every circumstance to be addressed in accordance with the way in which they are presented and have to be considered. In putting forward these amendments to Clause 19, we are placing too much emphasis on a particular interest when they all have to be, and will be, addressed under Clause 19 by the people involved at the time the circumstances present themselves. That degree of flexibility is necessary to make the provision work; otherwise it becomes totally inflexible and will never work.

Lord Higgins

As I said, this is essentially a probing amendment. It has revealed clearly that the position of the Liberal Party is not the same as that of noble Lords on these Benches. We are primarily concerned with ensuring that the absent parent makes a contribution to the child's maintenance. We believe that there is a case for penalties. But it is important for a specific penalty to be administered in a way which does not result in the bodies which deal with the problem at the front end saying that the decisions are not infrequently incorrect, unreasonable or inappropriate. It is in marked contrast with the view put forward by the noble Earl, Lord Russell.

Before Report stage, I wish to consider carefully what the noble Baroness said. I do not find wholly convincing the argument that because no one who said that she was threatened with violence has been subjected to violence, that removes the fear of it.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

I did not say that. I said that I was not aware of any case where a parent has had fears of violence and has been, so to speak, over-ruled and required by the CSA to co-operate. Women have decided to co-operate rather than receive reduced benefit. In other words, they have named the father. I simply asked: in that case, to noble Lords' knowledge, has the judgment of the CSA been at fault? I did not suggest the reverse: that sometimes there may have been a reduced benefit direction where, as the CAB suggested, there may have been grounds for a different response.

The important issue is, where a parent who is reluctant to co-operate did co-operate because of the reduced benefit direction, was she, as a result, subject to the violence she originally feared? That would have suggested that the CSA was wrong to require her to co-operate. I have not heard a single piece of evidence today.

Lord Higgins

I understand that, but the reason that she did not co-operate in the first place may have been that she was afraid she would be subjected to violence. However, I shall consider the noble Baroness's point.

The Minister was somewhat dismissive of the recommendation of the Select Committee in another place that there should be a delay before the new sanctions were fully operative. The Minister pointed out—it had not been clear previously—that the reduction of benefit applies to the benefit of the parent with care rather than the child's benefit. None the less if the, parent with care was existing on the level of support which the Government regard as the minimum, and for a period of perhaps three or more years she has to live at substantially below that level, it is not clear how she will survive. There may be an argument for examining to what extent that has been a problem in individual cases.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

The lone parent makes a voluntary choice not to co-operate with the CSA where there is no evidence that there is good cause or undue risk of distress. That penalty is £20 on an income of, say, £90 or so where there is one child plus housing benefit, council tax benefit and the like. In order to receive back the full amount, she has only to co-operate with the CSA. As I said, there is no case in which a lone parent has subsequently co-operated with a CSA where, to my knowledge, violence has been validated. Therefore, it is up to her.

One could argue equally well that it is unreasonable, for example, that people in receipt of the jobseeker's allowance who fail to be available for work should be sanctioned, because they cannot live on a reduced benefit. One either accepts that benefits have conditions attached or one believes that benefit is a birthright. I happen to believe that it is perfectly proper for society to attach conditions that are appropriate to a benefit, as in this case, and that it is up to the lone parent to remedy the situation.

We know that 70 per cent of those who have taken a reduced benefit come off that reduced benefit, if I can express it in that way, within a matter of a month or a couple of weeks. A third do so in order to go into work; some do so because, presumably, they are already re-partnering or have started to re-partner and therefore do not claim benefit at all; and a third decide to co-operate with the CSA. Therefore, many possibilities exist under which the lone parent may return to enjoy the full benefit. I agree that she should have it and it is in the best interests of her child to have it.

Lord Higgins

That does not cover the point that I raised: that, apparently, someone who is on the absolute minimum on which the Government believe anyone can reasonably exist then goes for some time—in some cases perhaps for three years—while being subject to a 40 per cent cut in that minimum level.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

As I said, it is her choice. She simply has to name the father.

Lord Higgins

I understand that it is her choice. I ask simply how she manages to do it. Is there not a case for looking into that matter?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

The problem arises from a failure to return the forms on time. How does she manage to live? It is a two-way process. If she wishes to receive the full benefit, there are conditions with which she must comply. She must return the forms, renew them appropriately, and she must attend a ONE interview, or whatever. That is essentially the case. I take the simple point that anyone who has an income which is less than income support is below the income support level. That is true by definition. The questions are: was it her own activity that put her into that situation; and, can she remedy it reasonably? The answer to both those questions is: yes.

Lord Higgins

I believe that there is no point in my continuing to make the same point over and over again. I still remain completely unconvinced by what the noble Baroness has said. However, having said that, I want to raise one final point. Perhaps we may then consider coming back to it on Report. Apparently, in a number of cases this situation has been continuing for three years and sometimes has been extended by three years. Of course, as the noble Baroness just said, it is true that in a number of cases results are produced in a matter of days, weeks or months. However, it seems that if nothing has happened by the end of three years, the person concerned is not likely to change his or her mind. Again, that is a point to which we should perhaps return.

Having said that, there is a significant difference of opinion on these issues between the noble Earl and myself, and we shall need to read very carefully what the noble Baroness said. Subject to that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment which has, I believe, given rise to a useful debate.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 95 to 102A not moved.]

Clause 19 agreed to.

Clauses 20 and 21 agreed to.

Lord Higgins

moved Amendment No. 103: After Clause 21, insert the following new clause— COLLECTION AND ENFORCEMENT: PRIORITIES ("…After section 43 of the 1991 Act there shall be inserted— "Collection and enforcement: priorities. 43A. In exercising his powers under sections 29 to 43 of this Act the Secretary of State shall ensure that such powers are exercised with a view to securing the collection and enforcement of child support maintenance from those non-resident parents who have failed to pay any amount of child support maintenance and that this duty is accorded priority over the collection and enforcement of child support maintenance from those non-resident parents who have made some payments of child support maintenance."."). The noble Lord said: I believe that we can dispose of this amendment very briefly. The amendment seeks to establish the Government's priorities: whether, given the huge backlog within the Child Support Agency, they are going to concentrate on the collection of maintenance from the 30 per cent of cases where parents have made no payments rather than the 23 per cent where parents are partially compliant but not making full payments. Given the extent of the backlog, presumably some degree of priority will be established as to how the department proceeds. I merely inquire what instructions have been given to the department and its officials for the Child Support Agency and its officials.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Amendment No. 103 would require the CSA to set a priority order for the operation of its collection and enforcement activities. It proposes that they take action against non-resident parents who have made no payments regarding child support before turning to those who have paid some, however little. It may be of interest to the noble Lord to know that 47 per cent of non-resident parents who now pay through the CSA are fully compliant. In 1997 that figure was 30 per cent. Therefore, we have already gone a long way. Twenty-three per cent are partially compliant; 30 per cent pay nothing at all.

Non-resident parents would be able to work out that if they made a token payment, that would move them to the back of the list of cases which the agency would be obliged to pursue. We all know that the complexities of the current formula leave the agency with little time for collecting maintenance. Too often, people have been able to avoid payment. Even where the assessment is completed, many NRPs fail to pay all that is due.

When I visited a child support centre in Hastings, I was struck by the fact that approximately 90 per cent of the non-resident parents asked for a review of the amount that they were liable to pay because their circumstances had changed. The review was carried out and they still do not pay. Their requests were intended simply as a means of stretching out the process. Non-resident parents must not and will not be able to escape meeting their full responsibility by making an occasional payment. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will accept that the amendment is unnecessary.

Under the new system, instead of 26 weeks, we expect an assessment to be made within four to five days, and the non-resident parent to pay within five to six weeks. Given that, the staff resource will be in compliance for all cases. It will not be the case, as the noble Lord feared may have happened in the past, that one simply adds to the payments required by those who are paying rather than chases those who fail to pay it all. Therefore, I believe that the amendment is unnecessary.

Enforcement action will now be taken against all non-resident parents who do not meet their responsibilities because such a simplified formula will free the resource for such action. I do not believe that a legislative priority for collecting enforcement payments provides the best way to ensure that parents receive the maintenance which is theirs by right.

Given that, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. If he requires further information, I shall be very happy to try to provide it for him. However, by virtue of a simplified formula, the speed of assessment and the fact that we should be able to get money flowing from everyone, our whole push is that it should no longer be necessary to go after what some may have alleged in the past were the easy targets. As I said, we hope that we should not need to discriminate in a way that the noble Lord may fear has sometimes occurred in the past.

Lord Higgins

What are the priorities so far as concerns those who are on the old system?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

We seek to obtain the money from all fathers. In the past, the priority has been to do so in private cases where the money is enjoyed by the family as opposed to cases where, for example, the father and mother are on benefit and where there is very little money involved. Therefore, in the past the priority has tended to be cost-effective: that is, to go for maintenance actions which are most likely to produce most money for children. If one must prioritise, it seems to me that that is the most decent way to do so.

It is not a matter of saving the Treasury money. In so far as public cases have had a degree of priority, it has been a question of what money will benefit the children. That has been the situation in the past. However, in future, with a simplified system, we hope that those choices—I am not trying to suggest that it has been widespread—would not have to be made.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

Does the Minister consider that the parents with care will believe that it is fair if the absent parent who has paid some money is traced just as quickly as one who has not paid any?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Is the noble Baroness asking me to change the situation for the future Bill or to change the situation as it is now? In future, there should be no question of prioritising. At the moment, in order to obtain an assessment of child maintenance it is necessary to acquire approximately 100 pieces of information from the non-resident parent. If he holds back only one of those, the money will be delayed. In future, only three pieces of information will be required from the non-resident parent: the name of his employer, details of his take-home pay and the number of children that he has.

As a result, the assessment should be made within four to five days and the money should be flowing from him to the parent with care within four to five weeks, compared with the six months plus that it now takes. If it takes a long time at present, it is understandable that officials will go after the money which most benefits the child. That dilemma should not occur in the future under the new system. We have tried to construct a system in which precisely those difficulties do not arise. I hope that the noble Baroness will be content with that assurance.

Lord Higgins

In the light of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 25 [Regulations]:

4.30 p.m.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

moved Amendment No. 103A: Page 23, line 30, after ("section") insert ("6(1),") The noble Baroness said: This amendment gives effect to a commitment we made in Committee last week. During the debate on Clause 3 noble Lords expressed some concern about delegated powers set out in new Section 6 (1), which has been inserted in the Child Support Act by Clause 3. Concern was expressed in this House about how the power might be used and some Lords queried whether such a power was needed at all. As I explained to the House, we wish to be able to retain a power to add other benefits to those already in the Act should the need arise though we have no present plans to add to the list. It mirrors the formula we have in the Child Support Act 1991.

I also explained that delegated powers are a feature of social security legislation, and that approach has been endorsed by the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee. However, in response to the concerns of your Lordships' House I gave a commitment that in future any regulations made under this power will be subject to the affirmative procedure even though that was not recommended by the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee.

The amendment before us now places a reference to new Section 6 (1) and Section 52 of the Act as amended by Clause 25, that adds to the list of affirmative provisions. I hope that noble Lords will accept that we have responded positively to your Lordships' wishes.

During a previous debate the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, asked me to consider whether we would amend the subsection so that any other means-tested benefit of a prescribed kind could be substituted for the current wording. I promised to reflect on this. Having done so, I do not think that wording would be appropriate because the benefits we define as means tested or income related are a narrow group of benefits such as IS or income-based CSM. Those two benefits are contained in new Section 6 (1) on the face of the Bill before us. We may want to add some benefits in future that are similar in nature to income related benefits but are not strictly defined as such, for example, WFTC which is not means tested but did replace a means-tested benefit called family credit. We do not intend to add WFTC, but there are a number of tax credit type benefits that are being considered. It is possible that more may be developed in the future. Therefore, a future government may wish to add it, but I must emphasise strongly that we have no such plans in mind.

Secondly, and more importantly, not all income-related benefits currently in existence require a person to seek child maintenance, for example, HB or council tax benefits, and IRBs which are not expected to apply for child support. The noble Lord's definition might well bring in groups of people to whom we had not intended it to apply.

I hope that on the first' part, by making the regulation subject to the affirmative procedure, noble Lords will be satisfied that Parliament will be able to scrutinise any regulations made under this power and on the second part that we might actually be widening the scope beyond perhaps what the noble Lord intended. I hope that noble Lords will be able to accept this amendment and will accept the Government's response to the House.

Lord Higgins

We are grateful for that explanation. We will study what the Minister said very carefully.

Earl Russell

I, too, would like to thank the Minister warmly for that amendment and also for her further reflections. The Government say what I was afraid they would say, but a fact is a fact.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26 agreed to.

Schedule 3 [Amendment of enactments relating to child support]:

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

moved Amendment No 104: Page 99, line 17, at end insert (";and (b) in subsection (1)(b), after "made" there shall be inserted "or, as the case may be, treated as made"."). On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

moved Amendment No 105: Page 100, line 19, at end insert— ("( ) In section 33 (liability orders), after subsection (5) there shall be inserted— (6) Where regulations have been made under section 29(3)(a)—

  1. (a) the liable person fails to make a payment (for the purposes of subsection (1)(a) of this section); and
  2. (b) a payment is not paid (for the purposes of subsection (3)),
unless the payment is made to, or through, the person specified in or by virtue of those regulations for the case of the liable person in question.""). The noble Baroness said: This is the last of the amendments to the Child Support Act.

Amendment No. 105 is a technical amendment to put beyond doubt the intentions when maintenance remains due if payment has not been made in the way that the regulations require it to be made. When the CSA is arranging the collection of child support maintenance, it will notify the non-resident parent of the amount, how and when the payments are to be made and who should receive them. The notification which imposes a legal obligation on the non-resident parent will state that the payments should either be made direct to the parent with care to or through the Secretary of State to any other such persons that the Secretary of State may specify.

If the CSA is unable to obtain regular payments of maintenance, for example, where the non-resident parent is self-employed or where a deduction from earnings order is ineffective, enforcement action will be considered. The agency must, as a first step, obtain a liability order from magistrates' courts in England and Wales or sheriff courts in Scotland. Where such a liability order is considered being made the magistrates' or the sheriff's office have to be satisfied that the payments are due and have not been paid. The intention has always been that this means maintenance payments as directed by the CSA. However, some non-resident parents may claim that they have met their maintenance liability by making payment in a variety of other ways, for example, by giving pocket money direct to the child or paying for treats. To take such payments into account would be operationally difficult to manage and run counter to the objectives underlying the child support scheme. For example, the CSA might have to become involved in resolving disputes between the parents as to whether the payments had actually been made and, at the extreme, fathers could give all the maintenance to their children as pocket money and leave the mother unable to buy basics such as food and clothing.

This amendment will ensure that it is absolutely clear to everyone, both parents and the courts, that maintenance payments must be made to the person specified.

I would, therefore, ask your Lordships to accept this amendment.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

moved Amendments Nos 106 to 108:

Page 100, line 36, at end insert (", and after "28A" there shall be inserted "or 28G"").

Page 101. line 1 at end insert—

("( ) In section 58 (short title, commencement and extent)—

  1. (a) in subsection (9), after "35" there shall be inserted ", 40"; and
  2. (b) in subsection (10). after "28" there shall be inserted ", 40A" ").

Page 101, line 5, after ("effect;") insert—

("( ) in paragraph 14 (which provides for consolidated applications and assessments), the existing text shall be sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph, and after that subparagraph there shall be inserted—

"(2) In sub-paragraph (1), the references (however expressed) to applications for maintenance calculations include references to applications treated as made.";").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Baroness Amos

I beg to move that the House be now resumed.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

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