§ 3.17 p.m.
§ Lord Allen of Abbeydaleasked Her Majesty's Government:
How many people are now in prison in England and Wales; and how many are likely to be there in 12 months' time.
§ Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, as of 30th March this year there were 65,403 prisoners held in prison establishments in England and Wales. It is estimated that the prison population will be some 70,100 at the end of March 2001.
§ Lord Allen of AbbeydaleMy Lords, I am most grateful for that information. However, I am bound to say that I find those high figures and the prospect of further increases to come somewhat disquieting. Everyone would agree that offenders convicted of serious crimes should normally be sentenced to imprisonment, but not everyone in prison falls into that category. I wish to ask the Minister two questions. First, am I right in assuming that this Government at any rate do not regard it as a matter of pride that we have more people imprisoned in this country, in proportion, than any other country in western Europe 907 with the sole exception of our oldest ally, Portugal? Secondly—I know that this is not easy—could not Ministers take a little time off from building all these new prisons to try to give the public and the media rather better information on non-custodial forms of punishment?
§ Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, I shall deal, if I may, with the second point first. I entirely agree with the distinguished noble Lord that it is most important that we stimulate a better quality of public debate and perhaps a more reasoned reaction from the media to prison and prison regimes. However, it is not the Government who imprison people; it is the courts. The courts take a view based on the evidence before them. As to whether the Government take pride in the size of the prison population, we have a duty to provide prison places for those whom the courts have sentenced to imprisonment. I am sure that all Members of your Lordships' House will agree that that is the right way forward. We predict, we provide and we try to ensure that prison regimes are effective in restraining people and in stopping them from committing further crimes. That is one of the primary purposes of the prison regimes.
§ Lord DholakiaMy Lords, I agree that since 1992 the prison population has risen by 60 per cent. However, the population of women's prisons has risen by a staggering 140 per cent. Does the Minister accept that much of this increase is due to drug-related crime and an element of harshness in sentencing women? Will he have a word with his right honourable friend the Home Secretary to ensure that he uses one of his high-powered speeches to draw attention to the effect that the harsh prison sentencing of women has, especially on children? Will he ensure that this is drawn to the attention of judges?
§ Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, I do not wish to argue with the noble Lord's statistics today; that would not be too fruitful. It is the case that the number of women in prison has increased remarkably over that period. That is, no doubt, a reflection of the seriousness of many of the crimes they have committed. The noble Lord's observation about their crimes in relation to drugs is also true. We have to find prison regimes that are effective and that turn people away from a life of drugs and crime. That is in everyone's and society's best interests.
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, is it not clear that the Government's approach is failing and that the number of people in prison shows that they are not acting on the possibility of identifying children about to go into crime—for example, those on school exclusion lists? School exclusion results in 80 per cent of excluded young people being involved in crime. Why do not the Government spend £5 a week on such children rather than more than £500 a week on catching people when it is too late?
§ Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, we need to continue to ensure that local education authorities and 908 the criminal justice system work well together in order to abate the need to send young adolescents—and, as they get older, teenagers and adults—to prison for offences which perhaps begin when young people truant. I do not agree with the noble Lord's assertion that we are failing because the prison population is rising. The noble Lord's own party was in office during a time when there were unprecedented increases in the prison population. I am sure that the noble Lord will accept that point. We have to ensure that we have prison accommodation which is appropriate for the crimes committed, effective and secure.
§ The Lord Bishop of BradfordMy Lords, as bishop of a diocese with a substantial Asian and Muslim population, with whom I work regularly, I welcome the appointment of Maqsood Ahmed as the new Muslim adviser to prisons. Is the Minister confident that in prisons and other penal institutions where there are Muslim prisoners, satisfactory arrangements are made for the timing of Friday congregations, for the provision of halal meat and for imams to visit? Given the increased number of Muslim young men imprisoned during the 1990s—often for drug-related offences—have the Government made any inquiry as to why this should be so? Is there evidence that it may be related to poverty, underachievement at school and unemployment?
§ Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, I shall deal first with the right reverend Prelate's last point. There is much in what he said. There is little doubt that the kinds of issues he mentioned are related to criminality. In going round various prison establishments, I have been impressed by the way in which prison regimes have responded to the fact that we live in a multi-faith, multi-ethnic society. That is now beginning to be reflected more accurately in the way that people are given the opportunity to celebrate their particular religions. I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his support for that programme.
§ Lord Cope of BerkeleyMy Lords, can the Minister confirm that the prison population would be even higher if it was not for the early release tagging scheme? Does he agree that, under that scheme, some 18,000 prisoners have been released early, including those convicted of attempted murder, sex offences and, in 2,000 cases, drug dealing? Does he further agree that some of those who have been released early have subsequently been charged with further crimes, including rape, assault, theft and burglary?
§ Lord Bassam of BrightonMy Lords, I am impressed by the noble Lord's interest in this issue. My understanding is that the previous Government began experiments in this programme and that they supported it at that time. Now it would appear the party opposite does not support it. Yes, of course, occasionally there will be failures—that is accepted—but the home detention curfew programme has had a 95 per cent success rate. We should be grateful for that. If we increase the prison population by continuing to restrain those who could be released on home 909 detention curfew, the size and scope of the problem will continue to expand. I ask the noble Lord how much more public funding he would like to see put into the Prison Service. That is an important consideration. I should like to know at some point exactly what the noble Lord thinks about that issue.