HL Deb 28 March 2000 vol 611 cc640-2

3 p.m.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will ensure that, when the rectitude of a statement on a Bill's compatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights is challenged, a reasoned justification will be given in the course of debate on that Bill.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, we believe that a Minister in charge of a Bill should address convention-related issues during proceedings on the Bill. It will be for him or her to decide how best to do so in the context of the debate.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Does he recall that at all four stages of the Representation of the People Bill the rectitude of the statement which he made as to compatibility was challenged on the basis of decisions of the European Court of Human Rights? Does he recall also that no reasoned justification was given? If the advice on which that statement was made is kept on file, why, in accordance with government practice, was the substance not disclosed in the exercise of' his ministerial discretion?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reminder. He is right that it was a question that he raised at each stage of the Representation of the People Bill. It is a matter for Ministers to give their opinion as to whether or not the legislation for which they are responsible conforms with convention rights. That is a statement that is made on the face of each Bill. Legal advice to Ministers is kept in confidence, as has been the practice across many years and across many administrations.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one man's reasoned justification is another's smooth excuse?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I rather like the way my noble friend puts that.

Lord Goodhart

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that one of the duties of the human rights committee of your Lordships' House will be to monitor Bills for compatibility with convention rights and to give a reasoned report to your Lordships' House on any apparent incompatibility? Can he therefore tell us, now that a distinguished academic has been appointed as legal adviser, when the committee will be set up and start work?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I can confirm the noble Lord's first statement. It is the Government's intention to introduce the Human Rights Act on 2nd October this year. We have not fixed on a firm date for the creation and establishment of the Joint Committee of both Houses. However, the points raised by the noble Lord are up for its urgent consideration.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, despite the fact that the committee is about to be set up, it is important that the Minister concerned should be capable of expressing his own view of the statement that the Bill is compatible. If the Bill is not compatible, it will be changed under the fast-track procedure because of the Human Rights Act. Should not the Minister therefore be prepared to give his own view and not hide behind the fact that his legal advice is confidential?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I am interested in the point made by the noble Baroness. However, I do not believe it would be right for the Minister to offer a personal view. It must be a view based on sound legal reasoning. Ultimately it is a matter for the courts to determine. We give a legal reason and that is the explanation which should be carefully provided for.

The Earl of Northesk

My Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is the Minister fully seized of how urgent the setting up of the Joint Committee has become in order for Parliament to have proper access to an objective and independent body of opinion in human rights issues as they affect the drafting of statute?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, it goes without saying that the Government are seized of that fact. After all, it is our legislation. We are proud of it and want to ensure that it is effective. The points made by the noble Lord are perfectly proper. As soon as the committee is in place—appointments are already being made—it will begin its important work.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for not answering either of my Questions.