HL Deb 14 March 2000 vol 610 cc1440-2

3 p.m.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn asked Her Majesty's Government:

What stage they have reached in the consultation procedure regarding the proposal for centralising the appointments of magistrates and the administration of justice for Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside.

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord Falconer of Thoroton)

My Lords, my right honourable friend in another place, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, wrote recently to a range of relevant people in the Duchy, including the noble Lord, to invite their views on the proposed transfer of responsibility for magisterial appointments in Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to the Lord Chancellor. My right honourable friend in another place is also seeking views from a number of national organisations, or their local representatives, and has arranged a press release to newspapers in the Duchy area, inviting local people to express their views.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn

My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for that Answer. Is he aware that the Duchy of Lancaster has been responsible for the appointment of magistrates for over 600 years and has carried out that task very well indeed? How does my noble and learned friend equate this proposal with policies on devolution and the move from centralisation to regionalisation and government for the regions? Surely the three areas of Lancashire have all the attributes required in the manifesto for regional authority. Thirdly, is my noble and learned friend aware that the Duchy of Lancaster provides a considerable amount of money to the Exchequer for the appointment of magistrates?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments. As I indicated in my earlier Answer, a consultation process is under way. I shall certainly ensure that my right honourable friend in another place is aware of his views.

Lord Waddington

My Lords, are there any figures to show that a change in the present arrangements would lead to greater efficiency or would be cheaper? Is there any evidence to indicate that appointments made by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster are in any way inferior to those made by the Lord Chancellor? Is the Minister aware that magistrates in our part of the country are proud to be appointed by the Queen in her capacity as Duke of Lancaster, and resent this pointless piece of tinkering and this attempt to tear up 600 years of history?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I am grateful for those views. So far as concerns expense and quality, those aspects will no doubt be examined during the course of the consultation process. Again, as with the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, I will ensure that the views expressed are passed on to my right honourable friend.

Lord Alton of Liverpool

My Lords, while I welcome what the Minister has just said, does he accept that, although the consultation process has been a courteous exercise, the letter from the Cabinet Office did not include any detail of the opposition that has now emerged from the Lord Lieutenancies in Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside? As other speakers have said, there is now increasing resistance to the proposals in the north-west of England. Will the Government please attach due weight to the views of the Lord Lieutenants in those areas? Will they recognise that, wherever possible, subsidiarity is the principle that should count?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, the consultation document set out the basic proposal in a neutral way and sought views. Further consultation will now take place. I have no doubt that, in considering what to do, the Government will take into account all the views expressed in the course of consultation.

Lord Hoyle

My Lords, will my noble friend take into account that the views being expressed are not those of all the people in Lancashire, or indeed all the magistrates there, and that a wider consultation is certainly needed in relation to this matter?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, as I hope indicated in my original Answer, my right honourable friend in another place is further seeking views and is also arranging for a press release to newspapers in the Duchy area inviting local people to express their views. Anyone who has not yet expressed a view still has an opportunity to do so.

Lord Tebbit

My Lords—

Lord McNally

My Lords, has the Minister—

Lord Tebbit

My Lords, not the coalition partners again!

Lord McNally

My Lords, the noble Lord must control himself. I did not know that the Duchy of Lancaster extended to Chingford! Will the Minister explain the origins of this—

Noble Lords

Order!

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I do not think that during the course of this Question, the Liberal Democrats have asked a question. Perhaps it is the turn of the noble Lord, Lord McNally.

Lord McNally

My Lords, the problem that the House faces is that the Minister has not explained in any way what has caused the consultation. Is there not a good old maxim: "If it works, don't fix it"? The chancellery of the Duchy of Lancaster works very well in appointing magistrates.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, the consultation will consider whether it is appropriate to transfer the responsibility for the appointment of magistrates from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to the Lord Chancellor. That is the purpose of the consultation.