§ 4.27 p.m.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord McIntosh of Haringey.) On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Baroness Lockwood) in the Chair.]
§ Clause 24 [Provision of information to the Council]:
§
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 132:
Page 21, line 30, leave out from beginning to ("under") in line 39 and insert ("(1) The Council may direct—
- (a) the Authority; or
- (b) the holder of a gas licence or an electricity licence,
- (2) A person to whom a direction under this section is given shall comply with it as soon as is reasonably practicable.
- (3) Before giving a direction").
§ The noble Lord said: This amendment was spoken to with Amendment No. 104. I beg to move.
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§ [Amendment No. 133 not moved.]
§
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 134:
Page 21, line 43, leave out subsections (6) to (11) and insert—
("(6) If the Authority fails to comply with a direction under this section it shall, if so required by the Council, give notice to the Council of the reasons for its failure.").
§ The noble Lord said: This amendment was spoken to with Amendment No. 104. I beg to move.
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 135:
Page 22, line 19, at end insert—
("(12) Neither the Authority nor any licence holder shall be required by virtue of this section or any regulations made under it to supply any information which the Authority or that licence holder could not be compelled to give in evidence in civil proceedings in the High Court or, in Scotland, the Court of Session.").
§ The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 135, I shall speak also to Amendment Nos. 202, 203, 261 and 262. These amendments concern information which is legally privileged. I think I am 281 right in saying that legal privilege protection appears in only two clauses of the Bill—Clauses 69(9) and 98(9). I also believe that I am right—although I am not absolutely sure about this—that these provisions were added to the Bill during the course of the Committee stage in another place. At any rate, it is the view of the Opposition that legal privilege protection should be given in those other parts of the Bill to which Amendment No. 135 and the other amendments to which I have spoken relate. I beg to move.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyThese amendments are designed to exclude legally privileged information from that which the authority or the Secretary of State may require to be disclosed under Clauses 92, 93 and 97, and from that which the council may require under Clause 24.
In relation to Amendment No. 135, the amendment which relates to Clause 24, there is a slight chance—I stress that it is very slight—that the council might seek information to which legal privilege attaches under Clause 24. But our consultation document on which information licensees and the authority should be entitled to withhold from the council included legally privileged information. For that reason, this amendment is unnecessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, referred to the even slighter possibility of a dispute about information which is legally privileged in relation to a court case to which the authority is a party. On the face of it, that could give rise to a concern that the authority will see information it could not see in court when it determines whether the licensee may withhold the information from the council. However, the situation will not be fundamentally different from that which now exists under the licences. Condition 16(3) of the Standard Conditions of Public Gas Transporters' Licences excludes legally privileged information from the director-general's right to information under condition 16(1).
In both cases the issue would proceed by a submission of arguments, but not the allegedly privileged documents, by the licensee to the regulator. If the regulator rejected the licensee's arguments and ordered him to produce the documents, the licensee could still secure that the compellability of the documents is decided by a judge in court, by contesting the regulator's enforcement order.
As regards the other amendments in the group—those relating to Clauses 92, 93 and 97—it is inconceivable that the information provisions in the case of these clauses could require companies to disclose information of a legally privileged kind. Examples of the sorts of disclosure required would be the number of cases when companies failed to meet individual standards of performance and the amount of compensation they therefore paid to customers under Clause 92; statistics on standards of performance and levels achieved under Clause 93; and information relating to types of customers to enable the effective functioning of a scheme on fuel poverty 282 under Clause 97. There is no prospect of requiring companies to disclose information such as legal advice, which is subject to legal privilege.
I have to say that I have dealt as fairly as I can with Amendment No. 135 which would have some point if the Government had not already dealt with it in the consultation document. The other amendments simply would not contribute anything to the Bill.
§ Lord KingslandI understand the Minister to be saying that he agrees with my amendments but that he does not accept them.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyOn the contrary, I am saying that none of these amendments is necessary. There are no circumstances in which any of these requirements could involve legal privilege.
§ Lord KingslandCan the Minister tell me why it would subtract from the Bill if these amendments were included? Clearly, the Minister agrees with the policy that lies behind the amendments.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyThe Bill already provides the protection which the noble Lord seeks. It would therefore be quite inappropriate to include his amendments.
§ Lord KingslandIn light of the Minister's last remarks, I shall again look closely at the Bill and consider whether it will be necessary to pursue this matter at Report stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 25 [Publication of notice of reasons]:
§
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 136 and 137:
Page 22, line 21, leave out ("24(7) or (10)") and insert ("24(4)").
Page 22, line 23, leave out ("not be") and insert ("be excluded from any notice").
§ On Question, amendments agreed to.
§ [Amendment No. 138 not moved.]
§
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 139:
Page 22, line 28, leave out ("disclosure") and insert ("publication").
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§ [Amendments Nos. 140 to 146 not moved.]
§
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 147:
Page 22, line 44, leave out from first ("section") to end of line and insert ("(General restrictions on disclosure of information)".
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
283§ Clause 26 [Provision of information by the Council to the Authority]:
§
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 148 and 149:
Page 23, line 1, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert—
("(1) The Authority may direct the Council to supply to it, in such form as it may reasonably specify, such information specified or described in the direction as it may require for the purpose of exercising its functions.
(2) The Council shall comply with a direction under this section as soon as is reasonably practicable.").
Page 23, line 18, leave out subsection (5).
§ On Question, amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 150:
§ After Clause 26, insert the following new clause—
-
cc283-337
- SECTIONS 24 TO 26: SUPPLEMENTARY 16,515 words, 1 division
- Supplies of electricity illegally taken 10,459 words, 1 division
-
cc317-37