HL Deb 21 June 2000 vol 614 cc341-7

8.5 p.m.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean)

rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 4th May be approved [18th Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, your Lordships will be aware that Parliament is asked to consider an order of this nature in most years. It has a simple purpose: to continue in force for a further year the Army and Air Force Acts 1955 and the Naval Discipline Act 1957. Those three Acts provide the statutory basis for discipline in the Armed Forces.

Given that the Acts fulfil that purpose, it is hardly necessary for me to emphasise the importance that the Government attach to this order as the means of ensuring that the legislation remains in force. Therefore, this evening I ask your Lordships to approve the order, which was discussed in Committee in another place on 16th May.

Each annual continuation order may be regarded as a stepping stone between the quinquennial Armed Forces Bills. The quinquennial Bills provide the means for both renewing and reviewing the three service discipline Acts. The next Armed Forces Bill is due to be introduced in the forthcoming Session.

I need to make one observation about the order. My noble and learned friend the Attorney-General gave an undertaking on behalf of the Government to your Lordships' House on 2nd November last year. That was that when Ministers move regulations which are subject to the affirmative procedure, such as this order, they will always inform the House whether they are satisfied that the instrument is compatible with the rights provided under the European Convention on Human Rights.

That is by analogy with the procedure for primary legislation set out in Section 19 of the Human Rights Act 1998. That provides that the Minister in charge of the Bill will certify that the Bill concerned is compatible with the convention rights or, if he or she is not satisfied that it is, that he or she nevertheless wishes the Bill to proceed. There is no requirement in the legislation similarly to certify statutory instruments. Nevertheless, the Government have undertaken to give their view on compatibility in relation to those, subject to the affirmative procedure.

The continuation order which your Lordships are being invited to approve may not appear to raise issues of convention rights. It is a brief document with a mechanistic purpose. However, we need to consider that purpose, which, as I said, is to continue the life of three Acts. Of course, those three Acts have been amended quite extensively in the present Session by the Armed Forces Discipline Act. That had the quite specific purpose of addressing concerns about whether aspects of the service discipline Acts were compatible with the convention. However, the main provisions of the Act are not due to come into force until this October. Therefore, the service discipline Acts are not in their entirety compatible with the convention; nor is this order which renews them.

The Armed Forces Discipline Act is aimed at dealing with the most important convention points in the service legislation. We are satisfied that it has done so in a way that preserves the essential characteristics of the discipline system. Of course, we debated that at some length in your Lordships' House.

We are now completing our trawl of the body of service legislation to see whether any residual convention issues remain to be dealt with. Any that need still to he addressed will not be in such vital areas as those addressed in the Armed Forces Discipline Act because those areas naturally were the focus of our initial survey of the existing legislation. In any event, the most appropriate vehicle for further changes that may be needed would appear to be in the quinquennial Armed Forces Bill.

Nevertheless, as I have already stated, the Government consider it essential that the order should be approved as it provides the necessary parliamentary authority for continuing the services' system of discipline. The system serves the Armed Forces well—I believe that there is common ground in your Lordships' House on that—but that does not mean that the legislation underpinning the system is incapable of improvement.

The Government have made clear their wish to improve the structure of the legislation to enable it better to meet the needs of the services and the way in which they operate today. In the 1998 Strategic Defence Review, the Government for the first time expressed the view that, there would be advantages to be gained from combining the three Service Discipline Acts into a single Act. Those differences which the Services need to retain for operational reasons would be kept hut reduced to the absolute minimum". Those words were prompted by the realisation that the present legislation does not provide the best framework for discipline when the services work together in fully joint environments, as is increasingly the case. We are considering how best to give effect to the intention to develop a tri-service Act, bearing in mind that, as was also stated in the Strategic Defence Review, It would he a substantial and complex undertaking which will take some years to complete". We are contemplating an exercise of rather greater ambition than merely putting the three existing Acts together into a single cover. We are looking at creating new legislation that will be greater than the sum of the existing parts. In the mean time, we have been taking stock of the intended consolidation of the legislation. In some minds, that has been confused with the creation of a tri-service Act. That confusion was evident from some of the remarks made in your Lordships' House during the passage of the Armed Forces Discipline Bill.

Consolidation would merely bring up to date the existing three separate Acts. In normal circumstances, that would be a worthwhile objective in itself, given the age and heavily amended state of the current legislation. Many of your Lordships know that work on consolidation has been under way for some years under the previous administration and the present one. It predates by some years the Strategic Defence Review and the intention to create a single tri-service Act.

The intention to move towards a tri-service Act has given us cause to consider whether to complete the consolidation project. Consolidation and the triservice Act would mean significant upheaval for the services. In both cases, it would mean not only having to adjust to new primary legislation, but the complete revision of all the extensive regulations and manuals that flow from primary legislation.

We are firmly of the view that it would not be a productive use of resources to go through that upheaval twice in a few years. Arguably it would even be counter-productive, because committing staff to implementing the effects of consolidation would divert them from work on the tri-service Act. As I announced in an answer last month, we have therefore decided to defer the consolidation and subsume it within the more fundamental exercise of creating the tri-service Act. That will provide the soundest foundation for service legislation in the 21st century.

As I have explained, the need for a tri-service Act derives from the importance of having a better disciplinary framework in those many circumstances in which the services work together. The operations in Sierra Leone have been a further demonstration of how effectively our Armed Forces operate together, notwithstanding any improvement that we may wish to include in the legislative framework.

I should like to conclude by paying tribute to the sterling qualities that have been so much in evidence in the personnel of all our forces deployed in West Africa in the past few weeks. That has been a particularly graphic example of what we have come to expect. Discipline, resolve and initiative are amply displayed wherever our personnel serve, in single service or joint environments, however challenging the circumstances. I know that those qualities are fully valued in all parts of the House.

I invite your Lordships to improve—or, rather, approve—the order.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 4th May be approved. [18th Report from the Joint Committee]—(Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean.)

8.15 p.m.

Earl Attlee

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the need for her order and its desirability. I am sure that it does not need any improvement. I welcome her comments about the ECHR compatibility aspects of the order. I remind the House that I have an interest in these matters.

We normally have a substantial debate on this order, but, as the Minister said, we have discussed service discipline matters at length under the Armed Forces Discipline Bill. We remain unconvinced about the need for that legislation and we shall see how it works in practice.

The Minister referred to the quinquennial review, which is due next year. We expect further ECHR-related amendments. We shall look closely at the operation of the service discipline Acts. We agree with the need for tri-service legislation, which the Minister mentioned. My only slight concern is that it might result in a delay in consolidation. I am sure that the Minister expects us to pursue those matters when we deal with the quinquennial review—and indeed that she is looking forward to us doing so.

Overcommitment remains a problem. It was a major challenge to the previous government and the situation is no different for this Government. I hope that the problem will keep the Minister awake at night. It certainly worries us and we shall continue to press her on it.

The Minister lavished praise on our Armed Forces. We should like to echo that praise—and perhaps better still, to amplify it. We should admire the motivation of our servicemen. They are not in an ordinary job. It is paid employment, but it is more of a way of life or a vocation. Over the past decade, we have begun to regard service in the Armed Forces as just another job. That is a serious mistake. The nature of their duties means that members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces rightly hold a special place at the heart of the nation. That is why we fully support the Motion.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire

My Lords, we, too, welcome the order. I strongly approve of the need for regular parliamentary approval. I found myself in Ankara at a conference with several Turkish MPs in March and saw their looks of astonishment and horror as I described the process of the House going through the Armed Forces Discipline Bill, adapting courts martial to the requirements of the European Convention on Human Rights. That is some distance from what the Turkish armed forces have yet fully understood as the implications of becoming fully European.

I also had some interesting conversations last week in the Baltic states, when I met the Earl of Carlisle, whom we deeply miss. I also met a number of British Army officers in training teams. They were training the Baltic battalion and the other new forces of those new nations. I was struck by how difficult it is to change ideas about discipline in post-Soviet armed forces. It made them reflect on the importance of self-discipline, training and mutual confidence between officers and other ranks as the basis of an effective armed force. That is one of the most difficult things to instil in those who come from a former Soviet background.

My only hesitation is about the length of time that I understand that we may have to wait before we have a tri-service discipline Bill. We are moving rapidly towards tri-service operations with helicopters and in many other areas. The forces are working much more closely together. If I understood the Minister correctly, we may be facing a new quinquennial Act next year without a tri-service Bill at the same time.

The Government nowadays expect people in universities to do things in three to four weeks, even if extensive research is required. So I am puzzled as to why the Government should allow the armed services three to four years to go through a process which I should not have thought would be that complicated. May we have an assurance that the process of a new quinquennial Act and a consolidated but also reformed tri-service Act should not necessarily be one after the other to a great extent?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their welcome of the continuation order. I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, that we tackled the most obvious areas of difficulty in terms of compatibility with the convention in the Armed Forces Discipline Act.

I stress to both noble Lords that there may be a degree of what one might describe as tidying up in the quinquennial Act. We are going through in enormous detail all the three discipline Acts to look at every single aspect of compatibility. I am not yet in a position to give your Lordships any indication of how much of such tidying up will be necessary.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, that the confidence between officers and other ranks is extremely important. The reason why the British Army is welcomed so much in areas where peacekeeping is the primary function being undertaken is because officers and other ranks work so very well together. Discipline is in the very life-blood of the British Armed Forces.

I hope that I shall be forgiven my earlier slip. The Government are always happy to consider any improvement to legislation as the noble Earl will know because, on occasions, he has been able to persuade me.

Earl Attlee

My Lords, even secondary legislation?

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean

My Lords, if the noble Earl wishes to come and see me and give me any ideas about secondary legislation, I shall be delighted to entertain those ideas.

But both noble Lords concentrated their remarks on the tri-service Act and whether that was going to postpone the consolidation. I tried to get that point across in my opening remarks. It is extremely important to impress this upon both noble Lords because I do not want there to be any misunderstanding. A tri-service Act is not simply taking forward the consolidation which was begun under the previous administration and continued under this Administration. It is not a matter of putting the three Acts together into a single cover.

I want to stress to both noble Lords that it creates a new structure of discipline, allowing the services to apply discipline more effectively in fully tri-service environments. Our Armed Forces are currently operating in those environments. We are looking at whether we can ensure that the same penalty for any indiscipline will be applied across all three services. That is not always the case at the moment and it leads to incidents where there is perceived unfairness; where officers or men from different parts of the Armed Forces are treated differently for the same misdemeanour or infringement of forces discipline. Therefore, that must be looked at.

But the new Act will, of course, maintain any of the essential differences which there are between the three services. It will be an extremely complex piece of legislation. I hope that both noble Lords will have the stamina to get through it when it reaches this House.

I should say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that there is a problem as regards over-stretch in the Armed Forces, but I do not accept what he said about over-commitment. The Government have done what they said they would do. I know that the noble Earl has had doubts about some of those issues; for example, Sierra Leone. I remember noble Lords on the Benches opposite said that we would not be withdrawing from Sierra Leone when we said we would. We have fulfilled what we said we would do, certainly in respect of Sierra Leone. I remind the noble Earl that this year has been the best year for recruitment in the Army for 10 years. There is a problem with retention and we are working extremely hard to improve that record.

I agree wholeheartedly with what the noble Earl said. The Army is not just another job. I do not think that we need any greater reminder of the Army not just being another job than on the day when Brigadier Saunders has been buried. He was a man who was going about his lawful business, unarmed, and was so cruelly attacked and murdered simply because of the job he did. There is no doubt in the Government's mind but that the Army, Navy and Air Force are not just any profession; they command particular respect and consideration because of the danger in which their members often find themselves. I commend the order to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.