HL Deb 19 June 2000 vol 614 cc40-52

5.5 p.m.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:

"Madam Speaker, I shall now with permission make a Statement on the violence involving so-called England supporters at the Euro 2000 football championships in Brussels and Charleroi in Belgium. As the Prime Minister has already made clear, Her Majesty's Government profoundly regret what has happened and I should like to express our deep apologies to the people of Belgium.

"As the House knows, events on the field this weekend were wholly overshadowed by events off the pitch. I am sure that the whole House will share my feelings of outrage and shame as we witnessed our fellow citizens engaged in appalling drunken violence on the streets of Belgium. These people have disgraced the nation and our national game.

"We, of course, fully share UEFA's anger at the disgraceful scenes which have occurred and the whole nation has taken full account of the warning issued by UEFA as to our future participation in this competition. Up-to-date information is as follows. There were serious disturbances in Brussels on Friday last, 16th June, and then on Saturday in Charleroi and Brussels. So far, we have received information on the identity of 584 UK citizens who have been arrested in these disturbances. In a few cases, these individuals have been charged with specific criminal offences, including possession of offensive weapons and assault. However, in the overwhelming proportion of cases the detention was by what is known as an administrative arrest, typically for a failure to carry a passport. No charges have followed. Instead, these individuals have been made subject to immediate deportation. To date around 400 of these individuals have been returned to the UK. As they have arrived, police and immigration officials have required these individuals to provide full details of their identity.

"The House has been kept informed about the arrangements made over many months to intensify co-operation between the Belgian, Dutch and French authorities to ensure as far as possible that anyone previously involved in football hooliganism should not be able to gain entry to those countries. It is widely accepted across Europe that the British police, led by NCIS and Assistant Chief Constable Tim Hollis, are among the most professional and thorough in identifying known hooligans and in policing arrangements in co-operation with overseas police forces. The Dutch Minister of the Interior, Klaus de Vries, has this morning issued a further statement expressing his satisfaction with the degree of co-operation provided by the British authorities.

"Well in advance of the competition, lists were provided to the Dutch and Belgians of 500 British individuals subject to banning orders and of a further 500 against whom there were football-related convictions but no banning orders. All 500 subject to any kind of banning order were sent letters advising them not to travel. Some 101 individuals subject to international banning orders are directly prohibited from travelling abroad. To the best of our knowledge, not one of these has travelled during Euro 2000. In addition, NCIS has provided intelligence on another 200 individuals on whom there was good intelligence but no football-related convictions.

"All of this has been part of an extensive international operation in which British police and immigration officials and football authorities have been actively involved. Further details were set out in the report of the Euro 2000 Co-ordinating Group, which was placed in the Library of the House on 7th June.

"The House will, I believe, understand that it is by definition far more difficult to identify in advance those who might cause trouble if they have not been previously convicted of a football-related offence or if there is no intelligence about them. The overwhelming majority of those arrested and expelled from Belgium come into this category.

"Just 15 of the nearly 400 being deported have been identified as previously known hooligans and one of these had a domestic exclusion order against him. One of these is one too many but this does demonstrate that our controls against known hooligans have been effective and it also demonstrates that legislative changes of the kind which this House has had before it recently, and which have been urged, could not have had the effect of reducing by any significant degree the numbers of people, without previous football convictions, involved in the trouble over the past three days.

"We have always made clear that we have been keeping under constant review these measures in the light of events, including the fact of large-scale arrests which have led in the main to deportation rather than prosecution and conviction.

"I am therefore announcing today a range of measures—in addition to those already in place—further to tighten the screw on the hooligans. The scrutiny at ports by law enforcement agencies has been intensified to prevent any of those deported from Belgium in the past few days from returning to either Belgium or the Netherlands. Immigration and police checks have been stepped up and the main carriers and the Belgian and Dutch authorities have been given full access to the information available to the law enforcement agencies so that they may refuse to take as passengers people they know will be refused entry at the other end.

"British police services are being asked to make contact with all those deported to warn them not to return to Belgium and the Netherlands and the likely serious consequences of returning.

"We have offered further assistance from British police forces, in addition to the significant presence already in Brussels and Charleroi and on the Eurostar, led by Assistant Chief Constable Hollis, to spot known troublemakers and help identify those arrested. We have proposed that the Belgian and Dutch authorities mark the passports of those they deport to make subsequent identification easier should they try to return.

"We have urged upon the Belgian and Dutch authorities the importance in our view of restrictions on the sale of alcohol in the areas affected, as was successfully done by the Dutch authorities at Eindhoven.

"Following discussions today involving the Government, the Football Association and the Premier League clubs, any supporter convicted of hooliganism, or against whom there is good evidence of hooliganism, will be banned for life from attending football matches in England.

"Let me now come back to the issue of legislation. The powers of the courts were strengthened last September by the Football (Offences and Disorder) Act 1999. That Bill provided for the imposition of passport conditions. We had hoped that the Bill would include a civil order power for banning orders to prevent suspected but unconvicted individuals from attending any matches. As the House knows, this proposal encountered vociferous opposition from certain honourable Members and was therefore not included.

"The courts already have extensive powers to impose passport conditions on anyone subject to an international ban and to impose an international ban on anyone subject to a domestic ban. But few such orders have been imposed by the courts. We will be taking steps to encourage their imposition in all cases in which they could help to prevent hooliganism by English supporters overseas. We will consider whether to have a single ban with passport conditions for domestic and international matches and to reinstate the civil order proposal.

"We have done a huge amount to stamp out football violence at home; and we have done a huge amount of work with the police, the Football Association and the authorities abroad to prevent violence overseas. These incidents remind us once more of the shame that hooliganism has brought on our country down the years. They reinforce our determination to stamp it out overseas as we have done at home, and I believe the approach I have outlined to the House today can help do that".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

5.12 p.m.

Lord Cope of Berkeley

My Lords, I thank the Minister for taking time out from the morass of Home Office legislation to repeat the Statement. The noble Lord does so not only in his usual role as spokesman for the Home Office, but also as the Minister with personal responsibility for this aspect of policy under the Home Secretary.

We all deplore the events that have taken place on the Continent and we support the Government in whatever they can do to improve the situation. Last week, the Minister tried to blame some Conservative Back-Benchers in another place, particularly my right honourable friend David Maclean for a lack of government powers. We acknowledge that it was my right honourable friend David Maclean who, last year, proposed an amendment to the Football (Offences and Disorder) Bill to allow passports to be confiscated from unconvicted hooligans. But there was considerable agreement that it was better to carry out that piece of legislation in a government Bill rather than a Private Member's Bill. Kate Hoey, when she was the Minister responsible, said that that was what would happen, and others said the same. Yet, although Parliament is awash with Home Office Bills during the whole Session, still Ministers have not placed such legislation before Parliament.

Has the Minister read the statement issued yesterday by UEFA in which it stated: The UK Government owes it to everyone concerned to take steps similar to those taken in other countries to stop these so-called fans from travelling abroad … Other governments have shown that it can be done and we call on the UK Government to take the necessary steps as a matter of urgency"? What is the Minister's comment on that statement? Does he propose that it should be followed up, for example, in the Criminal Justice and Court Services Bill which is before the House? If that is the case, we shall continue to support proposals of that character.

5.15 p.m.

Lord McNally

My Lords, sometimes those of us who are soccer fans quote, with implied approval, Bill Shankley's famous dictum that football is more important than life and death. It is amusing, but it is not true. Football is a beautiful game, but it is not the extension of war by other means. Our national reputation is something that we should take extremely seriously and defend with vigour. Therefore, I accept much of the tone of the Statement. I hope the Minister agrees that it would be wrong if any national response to these events were seen in the context of saving our membership of the present Euro 2000, or even of securing the 2006 World Cup.

We must examine the events of the past couple of days in a much broader context. It has happened before, time and again. We have the hand-wringing and the blaming, but nothing fundamental happens. Does the Minister agree that there is an element of stable-door slamming about the Statement? It is no use batting words across the Dispatch Box as to how the extra powers were lost in another place. The certainty is that they were not available this time—hence the criticism from UEFA.

Perhaps we should look more widely at why soccer, among all sports, particularly attracts this kind of violent yob culture. Although it is not the key factor, it remains a factor that, for example, sports writers named Mr Roy Keane as "Stanley Matthews Footballer of the Year". The most famous thing that Mr Keane did last year was to be photographed, face contorted, eyes bulging, spitting abuse, at two inches, into the face of a referee. It is not a particularly good example to set young people.

Over the past two weeks, as my noble friend Lord Watson mentioned, a leading computer company marketed a game in which soccer violence was the main element. Last Sunday, the Sunday People had in its gloating headline the word "Huns". If we had beaten Nigeria, would it have been equally acceptable to use the word "niggers"? I must say that for the Sun to start weeping crocodile tears today over excessive xenophobia is truly nauseating. How long will it he before our national newspapers take responsibility for some of the atmosphere around our national game?

How many of the clubs have a true involvement in the communities in which they exist? Some of richest clubs in the country—indeed, in the world—exist in areas of true social deprivation. Yet only as a result of the Minister for Culture twisting their arms were they willing to disgorge 5 per cent of their bonanza from television to grass-roots football. What example is given to young people when greed, institutionalised cheating, racism and the yob culture are all part of football? We must stop deluding ourselves. We must make no attempt at a knee-jerk reaction as far as concerns legislation but look at the matter in a broader sense. All parties must try to co-operate to see if they can arrive at a legislative framework to remove thuggery and racism, which go hand in hand, from football. We must ask for greater leadership and example from the players, club owners and the national media. There must also be a proportionate and considered response in terms of any change in the law.

Football is a beautiful game that has been tainted by the thugs who have gone across the Channel. They behave in a manner which none of us should tolerate and to which not only we in this House but those much further afield require a response.

5.21 p.m.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I have listened carefully to both contributions this afternoon. I start with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McNally. As ever, because he is a very astute follower of football, which both he and I greatly love, he has spoken wisely. I refer particularly to his comments about the yob culture. I was in Charleroi on Saturday. Although it was perhaps not the best game of football that I have seen, it was certainly a good match. However, I was shocked and appalled by the shameful scenes that surrounded it. I am not immune to such scenes, although I have seen them elsewhere. One of the matters that I have campaigned against is the racism and xenophobia in the game, which are appalling. The behaviour and attitude of some of those who believe that they support our national team is shameful. It says a lot about the void in part of our culture.

We cannot continue to ignore the fact that some of our supporters are xenophobes and racists. I am ashamed to say that the majority of those I saw in the street who were drunk and abusive were white males aged between 20 and 40. We must look long and deep into our culture to begin to understand how to address their shameful xenophobic and racist behaviour. This is a deep-rooted problem of which we have not as yet got to the bottom.

The framework of the legislation that we have put in place has taken 10 to 15 years to create. There have been six—or perhaps seven now—pieces of legislation, each tougher than the one before. I pay tribute to the previous government for the fact that they began the toughening up process. Last year's Football (Offences and Disorder) Act was another contribution by this Government to ensure that so far as possible the police and judiciary have the necessary legal framework and powers to impose some penalty, moral order and discipline on the unruly who shame us.

One of the good things about that legislation is that for the first time it began to provide the law enforcement agencies with the opportunity to attack racist chanting and indecent or obscene gestures in our grounds. Domestically, I believe that much progress has been made by the football authorities, the Government, the police and all those involved in tackling racism. Sadly, we do not yet seem to have got it right abroad. Even more must be done. The importance of today's Statement by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is that it focuses on the relevant issues.

Much has been made of, "If only we had done this", or, "If only we had had additional powers". The one power on which people have particularly focused is the ability to remove the passports of suspected hooligans so that they cannot travel abroad and bring disgrace upon our nation and football team. Sadly, the figures reveal that, of those who have been deported back to the United Kingdom, only 15 have appeared on any list that seeks to identify those who present a potential threat abroad. The malaise described earlier is, regrettably, rather broader than many of us had hoped, or perhaps feared. We need to consider better and further steps—social measures as much as anything else—to take to tackle the yob culture.

I return to one point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cope. I am not sure that last week in the context of a Question I sought to put blame on others; I simply stated the bald facts. A number of Members of another place objected on the grounds of civil liberties—that was how they saw it—to our proposal to insert into the Bill the power to remove the passports of known and suspected hooligans. At Second Reading, David Maclean made plain his view. At col. 476, he raised the issue of human rights and the implication of removing passports. He went on to say: the power to confiscate passports should not be arbitrarily exercised by an officer of the state unless there are exceptionally good reasons".—[Official Report, Commons, 16/4/99; col. 517.] That is hardly a ringing endorsement of the idea. It is true that at Third Reading Mr Maclean moved an amendment but he made plain that he was doing it only to explore the Government's reaction without any intention of forcing it to a vote. There were plenty of Members of another place who were determined to talk out the measure if that clause had been inserted into the Bill, and we should have been left with rather weaker powers to deal with the range of problems that football hooligans present to the world.

We have studied the UEFA statement carefully and take it very seriously. We want those who say that they support our national team to take the threat very seriously. We understand and share UEFA's anger and frustration. I spent many long hours on this particular set of problems. The preparations for Euro 2000, certainly in terms of policing, have been very thorough. I am ashamed at what has happened and greatly regret it. Our officers in the field, who are very disappointed, have conducted themselves with the utmost integrity and worked extremely hard on behalf of all of us. They will continue that important work. We must hope that the officials and the police service in Belgium act efficiently and effectively to prevent further troubles during the course of the tournament, and we should do all we humanly can to support them in that endeavour. I hope and trust that those views are shared by Members of your Lordships' House.

Lord Davies of Coity

My Lords—

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords, my noble friend will recall—

Lord Bach

My Lords, we have 20 minutes for questions. I believe that both my noble friends will be able to put their questions if we take them in order. I invite my noble friend Lord Faulkner to ask the first one.

5.29 p.m.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester

My Lords, my noble friend will recall that last Thursday I asked a question about security arrangements at Euro 2000. It gives me no satisfaction to say that my very worst fears about what would happen at the weekend have proved right. I welcome the tone of the Statement, in particular the comments of the Minister and those of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, about racism and xenophobia. Those matters, linked with the free availability of drink, have played a crucial part in the events of the weekend. To ensure that they can be addressed is a task that faces all of us. I urge my noble friend not to rush into ill-considered legislation. Can we spend a little while getting it right so that we strengthen the legislative framework and have a proper set of laws in place that allows us to hold up our heads again in the world of football?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, we are right to be careful in framing legislation. The Dangerous Dogs Act is a testimony to rushed legislation. It taught many Members of another place and your Lordships' House the importance of framing the correct legislation. That is critical.

It is urgent that we consider carefully additional powers. Those powers must be subjected to the utmost scrutiny. It is right that we should revisit the whole issue of the possible removal of passports from, and the obligation to attend a police station on, those whom we suspect of being involved in hooliganism and football-related offences.

However, I make this point. That will not solve all our problems. That must be understood. Of the 400 deported, so far only one of 15 had any connection with football-related offences. That tells us that the problem is more widespread. For that reason, we need to attack the social conditions and the frame of mind which give expression to that yob culture. Football clubs, football associations, government, police and all agencies which have a relationship with football have an important part to play. We have to say that the situation is unacceptable. People abroad should not have to put up with British yobs destroying their livelihoods, cities and town centres, despoiling the way they live and upsetting pleasant environments.

We all want to enjoy a game of football. It is a beautiful game—but, ultimately, a game.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, first, can the Minister advise me? I am ignorant; perhaps I should know. For how long do domestic and international banning orders last? Is it for as long as England or—I hesitate to say it—Scotland is still in the competition? Once England is out of the event, can the passports be given back? I am somewhat confused on the issue.

Secondly, perhaps the Minister can explain this to me. Presumably the persons who have been removed from Belgium in varying states of sobriety have passports. Does the marking of those passports by the Belgian authorities—I believe it has been explained elsewhere that it is administrative deportation— trigger off a domestic or international banning order? From what the Minister said now (and I saw him on the news at one o'clock), and from what his right honourable friend said, a large proportion of those people have no record as regards football misbehaviour.

From what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and others have said, much of the situation is due to alcohol. Misbehaviour in any way in a football stadium—I know from personal experience—can cause a ban on entry to the stadium. I have been warned somewhat carefully for suggesting that the referee was visually challenged, and that a linesman needed a white stick. We do not want the kind of conduct that the Minister must have seen in Charleroi and I saw when Scotland came to England and beat the world champions in 1967. Is not such behaviour fuelled entirely by alcohol drunk well away from the football stadia?

Every four years UEFA organises a festival of football which should be fun. Yet it is ruined by a large proportion of fans who go not so much to the football stadium as (in the words of the football media) to soak up the atmosphere. But that is not what they are soaking up; it is large amounts of alcohol.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, it is difficult to respond to a series of comments which perhaps form a question. However, I seek to respond to some of those points.

Currently, there are 10-year banning orders to cover international events; and three-year banning orders for domestic events. So three-and ten-year banning orders are available to the courts. It is for the courts to impose those. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary suggests today that perhaps we should consider some way in which those two banning orders can be brought together. We shall have to look at the guidance given to the courts so that they make full use of those banning order powers.

I know that the noble Lord is a football fan, plays a key part in a Scottish team—I confess that I have forgotten the team—and feels passionately about football. We must seek to work closely with the clubs. Most clubs no longer have widespread access to alcohol in their grounds. I think that that has made a contribution to reducing the level of aggravation, violence, obscenity and unpleasantness which can sometimes be associated with football.

Some two-thirds of those picked up for football-related offences are not arrested in or around the ground but in city and town centres. In part, that is a reflection of the success of better policing and stewarding, and the impact of CCTV in football grounds. As I have made plain, we must readdress those issues which develop that yob culture which becomes closely associated with people fuelled by alcohol. In Charleroi I saw many groups of young English supporters, and those from the German side, drinking extensively. It undoubtedly contributed to the problems experienced by the police in Charleroi on Friday and Saturday.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury

My Lords, as one who was vociferous in considering the libertarian aspects of the Football (Offences and Disorder) Bill, I should like to ask the Minister a specific question. However, before doing so, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a short and easy question. Does he wish to make some comment—there has been none in the Chamber today—on the conduct of the 39,600 British fans, compared with the 400 on whom we are concentrating, who, according to the British team, provided better support than any other group of fans in Belgium and Holland? They deserve some remembrance on this dismal afternoon.

The Football (Offences and Disorder) Act already gives almost unprecedented powers to magistrates to make an international banning order not upon the criminal test of beyond reasonable doubt but on the civil test. Noble Lords may be interested to know what that power is. In Clause 1(2), the Act states: Subject to subsection (3) … it shall be the duty of the court to make an international football banning order in relation to the accused if it is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to believe that making the order would help to prevent violence". I am sure your Lordships will agree that that is as low a hurdle as our courts could be asked to jump with regard to an extremely serious penalty.

The Minister referred in his Statement to the prospect of bringing forward new legislation to provide an even lower hurdle which would enable banning orders to be made where there is good evidence of hooliganism—short, one must assume, of any conviction. Is that the way forward, especially in the light of the comments he sensibly made about the social matrix from which all this stems, to which my noble friend Lord McNally referred?

Finally, perhaps it is only when these matters arrive in our own back yard that we notice them. Few noble Lords in this House will realise that over 30 per cent of all men under the age of 30 have convictions for offences of violence or probity. Perhaps we should pay more regard to the reality of which this is one small expression.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I listened with interest to the noble Lord's recitation of statistics. However, if, as he says, 30 per cent of men under 30 have some kind of conviction, that should be of no great pleasure to us. It may be a reality, but it is not one which we should willingly or readily accept. It is important that we should be setting standards and arguing the case. Why do we tolerate such behaviour? What is it about our culture that tolerates it? I do not believe that it is acceptable.

The noble Lord was right to observe that the vast majority of those who attend football matches, week in and week out, here or abroad, are interested in football. They are decent, honest, hard-working folk. We are talking about their freedom, their liberty, their right to enjoy those games in peace and to be confident of their own safety in doing so. That is being jeopardised by the mindless thugs who have so disgraced us in the past few days.

Whose rights should we be protecting? I take the view that we should be protecting the rights and freedoms of that majority and that that view will be widely shared not only in this House, but also outside in t he wider world. We should take careful account of that fact.

The noble Lord reflected on the voluble support at Charleroi, a stadium which holds 30,000. There were 5,000 German supporters at one end of it and 5,000 English supporters at the other. Around the ground, outside those two ends, a mingling of German and English fans were getting on admirably well and enjoying the game. Why is it, though, that the game produces such polarisation and violence? These are the issues to which we should be turning our attention.

Why is it that so much of the chanting and much of the support falls to an abusive level, to what I would call "low humour"? I found some of it upsetting. Although it was not obscene, it embarrassed me and I should be surprised if that embarrassment were not more widely felt. Even those in the stadium who are vociferous in support can embarrass our country with their slogans and chanting.

I enjoy the game of football; I like the pride, passion and patriotism involved. However, I do not believe that we should let the game and its supporters denigrate our culture in the way in which they have.

Lord Davies of Coity

My Lords, for most of my life I have either supported or played football. Today, I am a supporter of a small club which has a life with the community. Indeed, I support and have sympathy with the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McNally. What I saw on the television during the weekend was not only an absolute disgrace, but shamed all of us in this country. Hooliganism was not taking place on the football ground, but in the heart of the community of that country.

In recent years we have heard on the terraces the chant, "Here we go, here we go, here we go". Although I welcome today's Statement, there was an echo in it of, "Here we go again", which I found most disappointing. There has been a sea change which worries me. The antics which take place on the field today never took place when I played football. The antics which sometimes take place on the terraces never took place when I watched football. But the support and enthusiasm then was none the less for that. We appear to be tackling the problem as it occurs on each and every occasion instead of getting to the root of what is happening.

Many people are returning to this country after having been deported. Once we identify who they are, how severe will be the penalties that we can impose on those people who brought this nation to shame? They are hooligans and vandals who should not be allowed to go to any community in which a football match is being played.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, unfortunately, those who have been deported, after having been arrested "administratively", have not been charged or prosecuted with an offence. We in our jurisdiction cannot subsequently charge them with an offence. However, we can identify them. The Statement makes it clear that they will be visited, warned and deterred as much as possible from going back to Belgium or Holland during the tournament.

As regards those who are convicted of offences, the imposition of fines and possibly of imprisonment is available to the courts, depending on the seriousness of the case. Importantly as regards football, domestic and international banning orders exist. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, that the measures which we put in place are draconian. That is not my description; it was the description of David Maclean, shadow Home Office Minister, who during part of last year's debate clearly opposed much of what we were doing. He said that they were draconian measures and he was right; they are widely recognised as being such. Many of our European counterparts have reflected long and hard on our legislation and have been most interested to see whether they can incorporate it into theirs. The memorandum of understanding which was signed between the UK, Belgium and Dutch authorities accurately reflects our own legislation in this instance.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, reflecting on the answers which the Minister gave on television, is it true that if it had not been for a few Back-Benchers in the House of Commons the Government had intended to take that power and would have done so? If that is the case, is it not pathetic that a government moving into their fourth year in office did not use their overwhelming majority to secure that power?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

We have talked about the importance of getting the legislation right. I am sure that the noble Baroness will recall those debates. The legislation was enacted last year to come into effect in September. We were not given the opportunity to have that power because it was Private Member's legislation. We consulted on a particular power and we believe that we were right.

The noble Baroness was right to point out that since September we could, in theory, have put that legislation in place. But we have operated a law which we believe to be effective and which will greatly assist the situation. As I have said many times, even if we had had that power the terrible scenes shown on television, and which I witnessed personally, would not have been prevented. Those people would have been there whether or not we had that power. I and my right honourable friend the Home Secretary have made it plain that we intend to revisit the question of the courts having the facility to take away passports and to implement the banning orders which we believe to be necessary as regards those suspected of being likely to be involved in hooligan behaviour and public order offences.

We welcome the widespread support for that. The mood has changed with regard to the possibility of taking that power. I welcome that. I believe that such a mood change is essential and necessary.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, is it not a shame that the noble Baroness should try to make a political point out of this? Is not time that the majority of fans were given the opportunity to put their point of view in order to ensure that we have the kind of football that the Minister has described as "something beautiful"? Will the Minister take this opportunity to explain, in particular to the Belgian authorities, that the Government are not to be identified with those people who refused to honour the law? Will he make it clear that the Government are determined that where evidence exists such people will be prosecuted and that it would be wrong for the England XI to be refused the opportunity of participating in the rest of the tournament?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I said earlier that I believed the anger expressed by UEFA to be understandable. I continue to hold that view. It would be deeply disappointing if the England team were to be prevented from continuing in the championship currently taking place in Belgium and Holland. Many years of preparation and much hard work by a very committed manager, coach and team would all be lost and that would be a cause of great sadness.

However, the matter comes down to individual responsibility. Those who were involved in the scenes of wanton disorder have an individual responsibility and should be reminded of that. They owe it to themselves, to the team and to our country to think long and hard and to reflect on their behaviour. I believe that we should give them every encouragement to reflect on the appalling behaviour in which they have been involved and to consider how that impacts on our great game. We shall of course make all the right representations. We continue the dialogue that we began with our colleagues in Belgium and Holland. I hope that that dialogue is fruitful.