National Health Service: Discrimination (Hansard, 5 June 2000)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath)
My Lords, there is no place in the NHS for discrimination. 920 The Government are fully committed to equality of opportunity for all health service staff and patients, and we are taking vigorous action to achieve this.

§ Lord Patel of Blackburn
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. However, does my noble friend agree that, despite the Government's positive action policy, the number of people from a minority ethnic background in the NHS trusts who win merit awards, become executive directors or even chief executives is disproportionately very low?

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, my noble friend has undoubtedly identified a challenge which the NHS must face. However, there is no doubt that considerable progress has been made. I can assure him that we have a target to increase the number of black and minority ethnic people as executive directors of NHS boards to 7 per cent by the end of March 2004. Furthermore, since May 1997 more than 12 per cent of non-executive board appointees have come from minority ethnic groups.

§ Lord Tope
My Lords, we want to express our appreciation to all those from whatever race and origin who work in the health service. However, undoubtedly, discrimination takes place within the health service. The Minister will recall that during the passage of the Health Bill through this House we urged the Government to insert a non-discrimination and equal opportunities clause. They said that they agreed in principle and that in due course they would introduce such legislation. Where does that pledge lie now with only a year or so to go before the general election?

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the Government are committed to doing everything they can to remove discrimination within the health service. I mentioned the targets that have been set for executive board directors by 2004. In addition, we have set targets to reduce harassment to staff in the health service; we have signed up to the CR leadership challenge; by April 2001 all NHS organisations must use the Employment Service's two-tick symbol to guarantee interviews to qualified disabled applicants; and we have established NHS equality awards. Our whole approach in ensuring equal opportunities is cohesive.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, my question relates to the north-west area. I believe that it is particularly appropriate in view of the fact that this Question comes from the noble Lord who is from Blackburn. Is the Minister aware—I am sure that he is—that the worst area in the whole of the United Kingdom as regards dental condition is the North West? Three years after this Government came to power, does he not consider that definite discrimination is continuing against the very poorest people in those communities through the failure of the Government to introduce fluoride to the water 921 supplies? That would have reached even the poorest people in that area, who presently are failing to receive satisfactory dental treatment.

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
No, my Lords. I am afraid that I cannot agree with the noble Baroness. She well knows that we have established an expert review to examine the issues of efficacy and safety in relation to fluoridation. When that review reports, we shall of course be able to take forward appropriate policies. The situation with regard to access to NHS dental services is one that we inherited from the government which she supported. Many people were finding it difficult to access NHS services. For that reason, we established the investment in dentistry scheme. We have established dental access centres which have enabled many more people to access NHS services. In the future, we shall develop an NHS dental strategy.

§ Lord Laming
My Lords, will the Minister note that the very helpful Question of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, referred to all forms of discrimination? In addition to the schemes and initiatives that he listed, will the Minister agree to keep an eye on discrimination against the treatment of elderly people in the NHS?

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, we return to a subject which is rather familiar to your Lordships. Perhaps I may repeat that there is no place for discrimination against older people in the National Health Service. We established a National Service Framework for Older People in order to guarantee high quality, consistent services for older people throughout the NHS.

§ Earl Howe
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, sadly, one of the sources of racial harassment in the NHS is the behaviour of certain patients? Is that not a particularly difficult part of the problem? What can be done to condemn and discourage such behaviour within hospitals and clinics?

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I believe that the noble Earl has raised an interesting point. There is no doubt that harassment of staff is a worrying problem. The latest published data suggest that 60 per cent of black nursing staff have had difficulties with patients for ethnic reasons and 58 per cent of Asian nursing staff have experienced similar problems. I believe that we can take a number of actions and we have developed a process of setting targets to reduce harassment. It is most important that individual local employers make it abundantly clear to staff that harassment will not be tolerated and that they have appropriate policies in place to deal with it. However, I agree with the noble Earl that it is also important that we give the message to members of the public that that kind of behaviour cannot be tolerated.

§ Baroness Greengross
My Lords, do the Government agree that any form of discrimination in 922 the NHS is totally unacceptable? A recent survey by Age Concern of a representative sample of GPs demonstrated that the problem is widespread. Seventy-seven per cent of the GPs surveyed felt that age discrimination is unacceptable, as is the double jeopardy faced by growing numbers of older people who are also from ethnic minorities. Sixty-four per cent of the GPs surveyed supported the case for a full-scale government inquiry into discrimination in the NHS. Is it not now time for such an inquiry to take place?

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I do not agree. The most appropriate action for dealing with discrimination is to have clear policies, which the Government have, and a strong performance management framework to ensure that those policies are delivered. So far as concerns older people, I believe that the national service framework is the right way to go forward.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that there can be few organisations in the world more weighed down by and bombarded with targets, requirements and advice, very little of which achieves any useful purpose? I wonder whether Ministers and their advisers might give careful thought to stemming this useless tide?

§ Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, when it comes to paperwork, bureaucrats and accountants, I suggest that the noble Lord looks no further than the internal market which his own party introduced and which we have abolished. Of course, it is important that the NHS has room to develop and to make decisions at local level. However, that must be done within the context of it being a national health service. Most of the issues raised in your Lordships' House with regard to the NHS have been complaints about the inconsistency of service throughout the NHS. We are committed to tackling that. That is why we are developing a national plan.