HL Deb 17 July 2000 vol 615 cc723-43

26A. In preparing and issuing an invitation to tender under section 26 and entering into a franchise agreement the matters to which the Authority may have regard to, and make provision for in the invitation to tender and the franchise agreement, include the following—

  1. (a) what arrangements the prospective franchisee has or will make with bus and other transport operators in respect of bus and other transport services that connect with the franchisee's services;
  2. (b) what facilities the prospective franchisee will provide, and at what times, for carriage of cycles on trains and on any substitute bus service provided by the franchisee when a train service is not operating;
  3. (c) whether a reservation facility is made available in respect of cycles;
  4. (d) whether any fee is payable for carriage of a cycle and, if so, whether such fee includes carriage on any other train (including a train not operated by the franchisee) as part of the same journey;
  5. (e) what facilities are available for the disabled;
  6. (f) what arrangements the prospective franchisee has made or proposes as regards the matters set out in section 17(9)"").

The noble Earl said: I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 316 and 357. The new clause would enable the authority to use the franchising process more proactively to promote and secure a truly integrated transport system. Too often, rail passengers find themselves stranded on arrival at the station, because there are no connecting services. Train operators should be encouraged through the franchising process to explore with bus and other transport providers the possibility of connecting services. Train operators should also make proper provision for disabled people.

Cycling as a means of transport is environmentally friendly and healthy and should be encouraged. The Government's downgrading of the previous government's targets for increasing cycle journeys was a retrograde step. It is difficult for cyclists to use trains, because there is not enough space and spaces cannot be reserved. Bus services laid on when track maintenance interrupts a journey do not allow for cycles. Cyclists often find themselves paying a fee for their cycle every time that they change trains.

Train operators should also be encouraged to make appropriate arrangements with Railtrack for the provision at the station of the facilities referred to in our proposed new Section 17(9) of the 1993 Act. As the authority dictates the terms on which the train companies operate, it should be encouraged to use the franchise system to address those issues.

Amendment No. 316 addresses operators' concerns about Schedule 17 and the uncertainties caused by giving the regulator more powers to change licences. It is a key to the financial viability of the train companies that the franchise agreements are fixed and cannot be changed unilaterally for the duration of the franchise. That gives operators and investors certainty, which is critical for making the significant long-term commitments that are necessary for ordering rolling stock. The amendment would provide that certainty and ensure that licences are not changed arbitrarily.

The Minister in the other place said that he had much sympathy with the amendment, but was unable to meet the concerns expressed. We committed ourselves to return to the issue. We hope that Ministers have reconsidered how they might address the concerns.

On Amendment No. 357, Section 17 of the Railways Act 1993 enables the regulator to secure access for an applicant to a railway facility, such as a station, and such facilities as ancillary services, whether provided or procured by the facility owner. The proposed new subsection provides that such ancillary services can include those listed.

If a transport system is to be truly integrated, people arriving at stations need information not only as to the train services but also connecting bus and other services. They need to be able to buy tickets which cover their entire journey, preferably by means of new technology which combines fare and travel information with the provision of a ticket. They need somewhere to wait in comfort and safety, especially at night. If disabled, they need good access and facilities.

Those matters are relevant to the arrangements between train operators and Railtrack and it should be made explicit that they fall within the ambit of the regulator's powers in relation to access contracts. I beg to move.

Lord Berkeley moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 307, Amendment No. 307A: Line 27, at end insert— ("(g) what facilities are available for selling network rail tickets;").

The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 321 and the other amendments in the group.

I rather think that Amendment No. 307 moved by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has a lot to commend it. But it is rather sad that he had to include all that information about cycles, mainly because the system for carrying cycles, as he said, is chaotic at the moment because there is no overall policy. My amendment was one way of trying to resolve the problem and his is another way. I expect that my noble friend will say that they are both unnecessary.

Perhaps I may just talk a little bit about cycles. As the noble Earl knows, reservations for cycles are necessary on some trains. On Virgin trains, it is £3 for a compulsory reservation. If you miss that train and want to catch the next one, you must pay another £3.

Thames Trains has some very good cycle luggage spaces. You do not have either to reserve or to pay for them. You just cannot use them in the rush hour. That is probably reasonable, given the crowds.

I am tempted to follow the example of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, and read out a long list. I have a lovely leaflet produced by the National Rail Guide called Cycling by Train which tells you all about every train operator, including those who are not franchised, like Eurostar and Heathrow Express. It tells you what you can and cannot do. I shall not do that at this time of night. But it is a very good guide. I do not know how you obtain those leaflets if you are not a parliamentarian. I believe that the laissez-faire attitude of the past five or six years on cycles must be changed so that there is a policy. The SRA should be under a duty to enforce a policy which is consistent and intelligible to those who might wish to take bicycles on the train.

Amendment No. 307A deals with facilities available for selling network rail tickets. Again, it is back to the same old question of the ease with which one can buy a ticket. If you go to Oxford, like I do, there are two options: Thames Trains or Great Western. Thames Trains fines you if you do not have a ticket before you board the train. It is a £10 fine if you get caught before Reading and nothing afterwards. Great Western welcomes the purchasing of tickets on the train. Who, apart from aficionados like me, would know that?

It is even better because, after five years, Thames Trains has brought in a slot machine which enables you to use a credit card to buy a ticket, which is quite useful. The French have had that network-wide for at least 10 years. But, of course, you cannot buy senior citizen railcard tickets from the machine so you have to queue for those tickets. I could go on about this for a long time.

Half the trouble, and it applies to buses as well, is that those who make the rules do not buy the tickets. I have a very interesting Written Answer from the Minister dated 29th June when I asked him how many employees of the rail regulator and the SRA in shadow form receive free or discounted rail travel tickets from train operators, because it goes without saying that those people will not need to buy their own tickets. The answer was four from the rail regulator and 39 from the Strategic Rail Authority.

Perhaps I have an odd way of looking at life, but I wondered how keen they would be to ensure that easy selling of tickets would be a number one priority for the new franchises. I ask the question but believe that noble Lords included should know how to buy their own tickets. They should not always go down to the House of Commons travel office. It is good practice to buy tickets. We should buy second-class and queue. We can then make a fuss about it when it does not work. I beg to move.

Lord Addington

I have listened to the debate and am convinced that important points have been raised. I find myself in considerable sympathy, particularly with the first amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. I look forward with interest to the Minister's reply.

Lord Whitty

Amendment No. 307 would give a list of relevant considerations when the authority tenders for, or enters into, a franchise agreement. Many of the issues raised are clearly relevant to what the authority will have to take into account. However, here we are concerned with structures and powers. Those structures and powers already exist.

The first part of the appropriate structure is the directions and guidance from the Secretary of State, which already exist. They address franchise renegotiation and cover issues such as multi-modal travel, bicycles and disabled passengers. The second part of the structure is how the authority then translates both the directions and guidance of its duties under the legislation. Duties under the legislation consist of both the primary purpose under Clause 204 and the manner in which the authority exercises its function. Those are wide-ranging and incorporate the interests of all users, including, for example, disabled persons and bicycle users.

Members of the Committee may be unhappy about the way in which in the past the authorities have carried out their duties to take these matters into account. However, the powers and structures are there and augmented in the Bill. I should, perhaps, mention the amendment to the amendment, to which my noble friend Lord Berkeley referred, which relates to ticketing. I think that we all recognise some of the problems with ticketing to which he and others have referred. However, the arrangements for selling network tickets are licence matters which already apply to train operators. They are required to provide impartial and comprehensive information and ticketing systems. That includes giving passengers details of the cheapest, as well as the most direct and quickest, journeys available to them. Again, therefore, the structure and powers already exist.

I turn to Amendment No. 321 which concerns bicycles. The amendment provides for by-laws to be made. However, the powers already exist for the authority to regulate the conduct of those who wish to take their bicycles on the train. Again, therefore, the amendment provides for structures and powers which already exist.

Amendment No. 357 in this grouping is a comprehensive new clause which wraps together many of the issues raised. We are not convinced that the access contract would be the most appropriate place for this type of benefit. The access agreement is a bilateral contract between two parties. When a particular ancillary service is tailored to a particular contract, in those circumstances it may well be an appropriate medium for delivery.

However, many matters which have been identified in the amendment and discussed in the debate, for example ticket facilities, are more in the nature of general public interest rather than individual interest by the parties to the bilateral agreement. That suggests that the more appropriate way to deal with them would be either by the licensing system or a franchise. Such a provision would then be able to be applied across the network and enforced by the regulator. In other words, there are a number of different arrangements for securing the benefits described in the amendment. It would not be appropriate for the legislation to prescribe that they should all go into an access agreement as opposed, for example, to a licence.

Finally, Amendment No. 316, which is rather different from the rest of the group, would prohibit the SRA from seeking consent from the rail regulator for a reference to be made to the Competition Commission to seek modification of consumer protection conditions if the modifications related to matters already contained in a franchise. We have looked carefully at the operating companies' concerns that the SRA should not be able to reopen in a proposed licence modification consumer protection matters agreed or not agreed as part of the franchise replacement process.

Following representations we provided that only the regulator can modify a licence where the licence holder agrees. Where the licence holder does not agree, the SRA would need to obtain the regulator's consent for referral to the Competition Commission. The practical effect of the Bill therefore is that the position in reality will not be very different from that which applied under the Railways Act 1993. The rail regulator can already seek to modify licence conditions.

We therefore understand the train operators' concerns but consider that they are exaggerated. Licence changes relating to consumer protection are already in franchise agreements. The issues have rarely been raised so far and we see no reason why they should be more frequently raised in the future. Nor do we see a case for ruling out the ability to seek licence changes in the public interest. The SRA should be able to act where the regulator may act at present under the 1993 Act, with all the safeguards in place that this Bill provides.

I hope that on this rather disparate group of amendments Members of the Committee will accept my reassurances that, by and large, the Bill already covers such issues.

Lord Berkeley

On the amendments on cycling and ticketing I was pleased to hear my noble friend say that the powers already exist. My only question is: why is nothing happening? Could not there be a little bit of enforcement after five or six years? Perhaps my noble friend could helpfully send a copy of the debate tonight to those whose duty it is to enforce the various issues. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 307A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 307, by leave, withdrawn.

Earl Attlee

The Minister found that a difficult point to respond to. The Minister described ticketing as "a problem". The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, perhaps has a better appreciation of the situation. I have certainly seen passengers become almost incandescent trying to buy tickets, particularly at Victoria station. Even at Westminster station the machines that are supposed to take notes are, frankly, pathetic.

Again, I shall read carefully what the Minister said. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 212 agreed to.

Clause 213 [Securing provision of substitute bus and taxi services]:

Earl Attlee moved Amendment No. 308: Page 128, line 4, after ("may") insert ("by means of competitive tendering").

The noble Earl said: Clause 213 gives the authority the power to secure road transport where railway services are temporarily disrupted or discontinued. Amendment No. 208 imposes a requirement to tender out such services, not only where the service is discontinued as provided in subsection (4), but also where services are temporarily disrupted.

Competitive tendering is the most appropriate way of securing efficient and cost-effective services. It is a transparent process which is not only fair, but is also seen to be fair. In those circumstances it should be adopted; otherwise over-cosy arrangements may develop.

There should be no objection as regards urgency. The authority should, as a matter of planning, ensure that appropriate arrangements are in place in advance of any disruption and that quotations can, in any case, be obtained from the various potential providers quickly. Clearly, if arrangements have not been made in advance, the contracts would be made "in distress". It is unlikely that they would be robust, fair or even economic. They would frequently be made under the "old pals' act", with all that that implies. I beg to move.

Lord Swinfen

Amendment No. 309 has been grouped with my noble friend's amendment, and I shall not be moving it. However, Amendment No. 330, which seeks to insert a new clause after Clause 222, has also been included in the group. The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Manchester, has asked me to say that had he been present in the Chamber at this hour he would have supported the amendment. Indeed, he is sorry not to be able to be here because he has attached his name to the amendment. Moreover, the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, who has also attached her name to the amendment, has had to go home because her new electric wheelchair is giving her some problems.

Amendment No. 330 requires that train station operators provide facilities for licensed taxis at their stations. The licensed taxi has a vital role to play in an integrated transport policy. It provides the link between termini and the passenger's final destination, be it work or home. For elderly and disabled people the licensed taxi is often a real necessity for it can provide wheelchair accessibility and lots of space. It also provides the customer with the security of a regulated fare and a driver who has local knowledge, so customers are guaranteed that they will not get lost.

At the moment, there is nothing to stop train operating companies offering exclusive contracts to mini-cab firms for the use of railway forecourts. In this situation, licensed taxis are able to drop off passengers at stations but are prevented from picking up passengers or, as I understand they say in the trade, "ply for hire". There are already examples of such an arrangement at Cambridge and Eastbourne where taxi ranks are forced to be some considerable distance from the station. Unless this amendment is accepted, there is a real danger that this trend could develop countrywide.

To understand why this would be damaging to the disabled community, we need only to look at the Disability Discrimination Act. When regulations are brought forward under that Act, all licensed taxis will have to be accessible to wheelchair users. Indeed, this has been the case in London since 1st January. However, as the Committee will know, mini-cabs are not covered by the Act and are subsequently free from any obligation to be wheelchair accessible. This is the central point. If licensed taxis are not guaranteed access to forecourts, what is a disabled passenger to do when he or she arrives at a station and no accessible vehicle is available?

Why should elderly and disabled passengers not be guaranteed, as able-bodied passengers are, a suitable vehicle? Surely, this goes completely against both the spirit and many provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act and of this Bill, aimed at ensuring that disabled passengers are guaranteed the same level of service as able-bodied people in a truly integrated transport service.

There is an even more damaging knock-on impact for the taxi service in local communities. In many small towns, station forecourt work represents the main source of income for the licensed taxi driver. If the station operator or Railtrack enters into one of these exclusive contracts with mini-cab firms, why would a local taxi driver go to the expense of adapting his vehicle to be wheelchair accessible, or go to the expense of buying a completely new taxi?

The net result would be fewer and fewer accessible taxis to serve disabled and elderly members of the travelling public. It is not, of course, acceptable to take the view that as station forecourts are private property, the property owner has the right to deny or restrict access to taxis. The Disability Discrimination Act imposes conditions on other private property; that is, retail premises and places of employment, and taxis have the special qualification of themselves being subject to regulation under that Act.

This amendment has widespread support. I understand that the Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation has written to the Minister pressing for the amendment to be àccepted. The chief executive of the Disability Alliance has written to the London Taxi Board supporting the new clause and stating, We have disabled people amongst our staff and on our Board of Trustees and they often encounter problems with inaccessible minicabs on railway forecourts, resulting in them having to go some distance in a wheelchair, often with luggage, to reach an accessible cab which is not allowed into the forecourt". I think that I have probably said enough to emphasise my point. I hope that when the Minister replies I shall, for once, have something acceptable to listen to.

Lord Burnham

As my noble friend has suggested, the proposed new clause relates to the problems of taxis and parking. Can the Minister help us in any way by giving an assurance that railway stations will be required to produce adequate car parking for all those who wish to use railway station facilities? The right honourable gentleman the Deputy Prime Minister asks us not to use our cars, but unless car parking facilities are provided for those who wish to travel to their destinations by train, that will be difficult.

Lord Addington

My name is also added to Amendment No. 330. The noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, has done an excellent job of explaining it. We place upon licensed taxi operators the responsibility to ensure that their vehicles are accessible to those with disability problems. However, we do not place such a responsibility upon minicabs. I take the liberty of reminding the Minister of a discussion we had some nine and a half hours ago—yesterday now—at Question Time. It became clear that minicabs are not covered by much of the legislation which has been introduced to make taxis more accessible to the disabled, to wheelchairs, guide dogs and hearing dogs. Surely if we are to place an extra responsibility on a group, they should benefit from that.

In my city of Norwich the forecourt of the station is the main point from which taxis operate. They are the traditional hackney cabs. That forecourt seems to be the main thrust of all activity. If they were not allowed to work there, the whole basis of the local economy for taxi drivers would be removed.

I hope that we shall be given a positive response. Once you have told a group such as taxi drivers that they must help the disabled, they must be allowed to do so; otherwise, we make a nonsense of part of the legislation.

12.30 a.m.

Lord Whitty

There is a danger in this argument of mixing up the question of accessible transport for the disabled with access for the taxi trade to particular venues. There are arguments on both issues but they should not be confused.

We are concerned here with the responsibility within the railway system for the station operators to provide accessible transport. In this instance it is the responsibility not of the taxi firms or the minicab firms but of the station operators—as indeed it is in terms of parking provisions, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Burnham, although local authorities can have some influence on that.

So far as concerns access for the disabled, since October 1999 Section 21 has required all service providers to adjust any practice, policy or procedure which makes it impossible or unreasonably difficult for disabled persons to make use of the service. So if, for example, a station operator's policy on access for taxis prevented disabled people from getting access to or from the station, there would be already the potential for a claim under the DDA.

Lord Swinfen

Surely when the rail operator has delivered the disabled person by rail to the station, and that disabled person is ready to leave the station, the rail operator is then discharged of his responsibility. There is a difficulty if the station operator has a contract with a local car hire firm or minicab firm that only its vehicles can wait at the station forecourt. This is why I want this new clause in the Bill so that taxis can be there specifically for disabled and elderly people. It will also help people with large amounts of luggage, which very often do not fit easily into small minicabs.

Lord Whitty

The noble Lord is again mixing up the two issues. The responsibility is on the station operator to provide access to and from the service he provides. If his contracting arrangements with a local minicab firm cut across that, it is his responsibility; there is a potential claim against him and he must put it right.

Moreover, as the DDA comes into play from 2004, station operators will have to take reasonable steps to remove, alter or provide reasonable means of avoiding any physical features that make it impossible or unreasonably difficult for disabled people to use a facility. That means that station operators should start looking now at their infrastructure to make sure that it is reasonably accessible to disabled people, however they may arrive at the station. It is not only a matter of arriving at the station but being taken from the station, and therefore the noble Lord's point about the end of the operator's responsibility is not the case.

It may be the case for other reasons that the station operator has made an exclusive contract, but if that contract cuts across that duty then the DDA makes provision for that circumstance. Section 33 of the Act will allow the Secretary of State to designate transport facilities where an operator has entered into such a contract. The result of that designation would be that any provisions relating to accessibility requirements for taxis would have to apply equally to the private hire vehicles which fulfil that contract. In that way, passengers arriving at a station can be sure that they can call on an accessible vehicle to take them on their way.

I have sought to explain that the DDA ensures the accessibility of taxis, as we discussed earlier; it also makes a provision for disabled passengers to move between taxis and trains. Where the station operator is failing in his duty to provide either an accessible taxi or an alternative, the responsibility is on the station operator, and the Secretary of State has reserved powers in this respect. I do not think it would be appropriate to tackle the issue the other way round, as the noble Lord's amendment seeks to do—that is, to define what is and is not in the appropriate contract for the station operator.

I return to the amendments standing in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. Amendment No. 308 would require the SRA to seek competitive tenders before securing the provision of substitute services by road. Such services will normally be procured by train operators. Procurement in these cases is a commercial matter for train operators. The SRA will procure substitute road services only if it is acting as an "operator of last resort". Frequently, the provision of substitute services will have to be done at very short notice as a result of an emergency. Circumstances could arise where substitute rail services need to be secured by the SRA in an emergency if it is operating as an "operator of last resort" and there is an accident or emergency engineering work. In such cases, there clearly would not be time to seek tenders.

We debated the issue in Grand Committee when my noble friend Lord Macdonald tabled Clause 246. He said then that Clause 246 was an attempt to find a happy medium between the practical concerns of the train operators and the need to ensure that in emergency circumstances a suitable vehicle is there to transport disabled passengers in an appropriate manner. That statement was correct. I hope that the clause we inserted in Grand Committee—Clause 246—is an honourable and acceptable advance. I hope that the noble Earl can accept those explanations and withdraw his amendment.

Lord Burnham

Will the noble Lord, under the terms of the clause, require the rail operator to provide adequate—I mean adequate—car parking facilities for those using that rail network?

Lord Whitty

No, not in the terms the noble Lord requests. The provision of car parking is primarily a matter for the station operator. That can be influenced by the local transport plan because the number of cars affects traffic movements throughout the town or wherever. In some cases it would not be appropriate to attract further car movements—for example, to a city centre station—even if the transport operator was prepared to do so. In other circumstances—for example, in parkway stations—it may be appropriate to try and encourage the operator, either through the LTP or through the franchising arrangement, to provide more parking space. But there is not a blanket answer to the noble Lord's question.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

I am at a loss to understand why the Minister is so emphatic in his rejection of the idea of providing accessible taxi services away from stations. There is no confusion in the minds of noble Lords who have put forward the amendment as to what is being talked about. The amendment is about having available in the station forecourt, for hire, a vehicle which is accessible to people with mobility problems. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, added a few other subjects which arose in the course of Question Time recently.

I do not understand the accusation of confusion. We are not confusing means with ends or ends with means. The end is to have accessible transport. The means is to make it possible for accessible taxis, which in most cases means black cabs, to pick up passengers at stations. These exclusive deals between station owners and mini-cab services make that impossible. It is the exclusivity of the deal which makes it impossible. Anyone who has been to Cambridge knows exactly what I am talking about. Anyone who has arrived at Gatwick also knows what I am talking about. If you arrive at Gatwick on an aeroplane and are wheeled, you had better have a huge bus-type minicab, which I am sure costs twice as much as an ordinary minicab, to meet you, because one will not be there waiting. I do not think that this is such a difficult issue. I wish the Government would give some ground on it.

Lord Swinfen

Before my noble friend decides what to do with his amendment, perhaps I may say that, because it is so late, I shall not press my Amendment No. 330 when we come to it later on. However, I did get the impression that the Minister's reply was somewhat muddled. I am not sure that he did not contradict himself while he was replying to my amendment. I shall read with considerable care what he said. I warn the noble Lord that I will be returning to this matter at the next stage of the Bill. In my view, it is an extremely important matter. There are stations—I suspect that it is an increasing number of stations—which have come to exclusive contracts with minicab firms to the detriment not only of disabled people but people who have mobility problems of all kinds, including people travelling with large numbers of children and a great deal of luggage.

Earl Attlee

I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have spoken in the debate. I refer in particular to the noble Lords, Lord Swinfen and Lord Addington, who spoke to their Amendment No. 330, which raises important points about station forecourts. The groupings on this issue seem to be rather peculiar. I blame myself. I did not check them carefully enough this morning. Perhaps it is a smokescreen to cover my Amendment No. 308. However, I am sure that we will return at a later stage to Amendment No. 330.

I was rather disappointed with the Minister's response. I thought that he was converted to the market. I was thinking in terms of model contracts negotiated by the SRA which could then be drawn on by the train operating companies. It is important that we have these contracts in place so that the necessary contractual arrangements are made, especially for the disabled. We need to ensure that the right kind of transport equipment is available. There is no point in contracting for a coach that is too big to enter a station forecourt. Does the Minister not want to move at all? He does not. I beg to move.

12.42 a.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 308) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 12; Not-Contents, 39.

Division No. 2
CONTENTS
Attlee, E. Henley, L. [Teller]
Blatch, B. Moynihan, L.
Burnham, L. [Teller] Northbrook, L.
Dixon-Smith, L. Northesk, E.
Elton, L. Swinfen, L.
Hanham, B. Wilcox, B.
NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L. Grabiner, L.
Addington, L. Hamwee. B.
Amos, B. Howells of St. Davids, B.
Bach, L. Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Berkeley, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Brett, L. Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Burlison, L.
Carter, L. [Teller] Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
Chandos, V. McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B. Maddock. B.
Elder, L. Mallalieu, B.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Morns of Castle Morns, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L. Sawyer. L.
Gale, B. Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Gavron, L. Tordoff, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Goudie, B. Whitty, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B. Winston, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

12.52 a.m.

[Amendment No. 309 not moved.]

Clause 213 agreed to.

Clause 214 agreed to.

Scheclule 16 [Transfer to SRA of Franchising Director's functions]:

[Amendments Nos. 310 to 315 not moved.]

Schedule 16 agreed to.

Clause 215 agreed to.

Schedule 17 [Transfers to SRA from Rail Regulator]:

[Amendment No. 316 not moved.]

Baroness Wilcox moved Amendment No. 316A: Page 261, line 16, leave out (""Strategic Rail Authority (in this Act referred to as "the Authority")"") and insert (""Secretary of State"").

The noble Baroness said: I confess to being slightly confused by the grouping. I can only hope that it is because somewhere among the different amendments to which I shall speak is a prize for me. I hope that the Committee will bear with me. Amendments Nos. 316A to 316G relate to independence for the rail passenger councils from the strategic rail authority. Amendments Nos. 337A and 338B refer to disadvantaged passengers. Amendment No. 338A refers to duties to provide information and access.

Amendments Nos. 316A to 316G to Schedule 17 are among a number of amendments standing in my name relating to the powers of the body that speaks for passengers of rail services. My amendments have the support of the recently relaunched rail passengers council and have been promoted by the National Consumer Council. As I indicated on Second Reading, I seek to measure the rail passenger council against the government-funded National Consumer Council blueprint, which sets out the key characteristics of a consumer body.

Rail follows a pattern seen in other sectors where a competitive market does not operate fully and there are regulatory and consumer advocate bodies. Consumer organisations—whether for energy, postal services or rail—need a range of powers to keep the companies and regulators on their toes. That is particularly true of rail, where the long-suffering passenger usually has no alternative when things go wrong.

The Utilities Bill and Postal Services Bill this Session have enhanced the role of consumer bodies for those sectors by making them independent; giving them a remit for disadvantaged consumers; and imparting powers to access and publish information. While that legislation may not be ideal, it is significantly better than the provisions in the Bill.

The amendments to Schedule 17 may appear technical but are aimed at enshrining the independence of the rail passenger council from the SRA—transferring all responsibility for establishing, appointing, administering and funding the council and committees to the Government. Regulatory and consumer representative bodies have distinct roles, so it is important that they are—and are seen to be—independent of each other. The rail passenger council network must have the freedom to take and advance its own position, which may at times be critical of the regulatory body and incompatible with sponsorship by the SRA—with its regulatory powers and ability to be a service provider in its own right. The relationship between the authority and the council should be constructive and professional.

At some point in future, when the personnel and atmosphere have changed, the council may find its activities compromised by a lack of independence. The council's first responsibility and accountability should always be to the passenger. It is difficult to reconcile that objective with the fact that the council's staff will be employed by the SRA, which will also determine the council's budget.

The Bill improves the powers of the passenger body but nowhere near far enough. On Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, stated: It is important that the rail passenger council has an independent view".—[Official Report, 5/6/2000; col. 1035.] I hope that the Government will build on that position. If wider powers and enshrined independence are considered necessary in other sectors, they should be necessary in rail. I beg to move.

Earl Attlee

My amendments in the group build on the amendments in the name of my noble friend, Baroness Wilcox. Subsections (7B), (7C), (9B) and (9C) allow the Secretary of State to limit the scope of the activities of the rail passenger council and committees. Amendments Nos. 338 and 339 remove that power. The council and committees have been entrusted with various general duties and should be allowed to get on with their work without the Secretary of State telling them those parts of the service in which they can or cannot become involved. If the council and committees are not allowed to deal with the overall picture, their effectiveness could be severely impaired.

I turn to Amendments Nos. 342 and 343. Subsections (6) and (7) allow the public to be excluded from sections of meetings not only where the items to be discussed are genuinely confidential but also if the rail passengers' council or committee so decides in accordance with an order made by the Secretary of State. In the interests of open government, neither the. Secretary of State nor the rail passengers' council or committee should have power to make meetings of a public body closed. Any grounds in addition to those already specified in legislation on which they can be closed should be spelt out in the Bill so that they can be subjected to proper parliamentary scrutiny.

1 a.m.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

As the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, told the Committee, these amendments are based on similar provisions in other regulatory Bills this Session. Having taken part in the Financial Services and Markets and Utilities Bills I recognise a good number of the arguments. However, the regulatory structure of the rail industry is not the same as for the utilities. Therefore, I should perhaps say a word about the structure of the rail industry.

Under the 1993 Act OPRAF and the rail regulator share consumer protection functions. That has not worked very well. Therefore, we are consolidating the consumer protection functions in the strategic rail authority. That clearly distinguishes the position here from that in other regulated utilities. I accept that the roles of consumer protection and economic regulation need to be kept separate. That principle was in the earlier legislation, and under these new arrangements they will be. The rail regulator is the economic regulator. The SRA is the strategic body for the industry, with a specific remit under Clause 206(2)(a) to protect the interests of users of rail services. In its armoury it has strong levers to influence the performance of the passenger companies through the franchising process. That is not an undesirable conflict; it is a valuable opportunity for the passenger voice to be registered at first hand.

I turn to the specific amendments. Amendments Nos. 316A to 316G would transfer a number of the rail regulator's existing duties in respect of the rail passengers' council and committees to the Secretary of State rather than the SRA. They would make the chairman of the rail passengers' council responsible for appointing the chairmen of the rail passengers' committees, which is currently the responsibility of the Secretary of State. In the light of what I have said, it is clear why I do not believe it would be appropriate for the Secretary of State to be given these duties. The authority is the regulatory body with statutory responsibility for the protection of railway passengers' interests. It is only right that it should also be the sponsoring body of the rail passengers' council and committees.

The statutory independence of the RPCs is clear. They have clearly defined statutory duties which the SRA will have to take into account in its dealing with them, and they will be free to express their independent views under the sponsorship of the SRA, as they are at present under the sponsorship of the rail regulator. But they will have an integral role within the SRA. They will be close to the decision-makers and well placed to ensure that the SRA's decisions take into account the real issues affecting passengers.

The amendments also propose that the chairman of the rail passengers' council should become responsible for appointing the chairmen of the committees. This is the responsibility of the Secretary of State, and we believe that that should remain the position. The committee chairmen also serve as ex-officio members of the rail passengers' council. I accept that the council chairman has an interest in new appointments. I am aware that currently he is given an opportunity by the regulator to comment on prospective candidates. All of these committee chairmen posts are advertised locally and are open to interested rail users. The appointments are made on merit in accordance with the guidelines of the Nolan Committee.

Amendments Nos. 337A and 338B would add to the duties of the rail passengers' council and committees by specifically requiring them to take into account the interests of groups of passengers who are disadvantaged or who have special needs. I recognise those categories from the Utilities Bill, but I do not believe that it is necessary to put them on the face of this Bill. After all, gas and electricity utilities are used by everybody, but rail passengers, while a significant body of people, are not the same as the general population. The rail passengers' council and committees have a duty to represent all passengers and to deal with genuine problems. They will have the freedom to reflect these special needs as appropriate.

Amendments Nos. 338 and 339 would remove the power of the Secretary of State to exclude from the remit of the rail passengers' council and the rail passengers' committee specified services or to restrict their remit in respect of specified services. We intend those to be used only in the marginal cases of heritage lines, such as the Bluebell Line, which are not part of the national network and where the powers of the rail passengers' committee would not be appropriate, particularly as regards the lines run by voluntary enthusiasts. That is the only purpose of the exclusion.

Amendments Nos. 342 and 343 take away from the Secretary of State the power which this Bill gives him to make an order defining circumstances when the public may be excluded from meetings of the rail passengers' committee and the rail passengers' council. Those bodies have asked us to include the exclusion provision for those items on the agenda needed to preserve confidentiality and to discuss issues relating to their management; for instance, individual pay or disciplinary matters. There is no intention of using them in any wider sense.

Amendment No. 338A sets out a set of duties on the council to make proposals, provide advice and information and represent the views of passengers. That is already covered in Clause 227(4). The wording of the amendment would have some odd results with which I shall not weary Members of the Committee.

Amendment No. 338A also relates specifically to the rail passengers' council's access to information. It would empower the Secretary of State to make regulations limiting the type of information to be provided and to establish a body to arbitrate in cases of dispute. The council needs access to information about individual complaints, but that is provided by the passenger licence which requires licenceholders to provide the rail passengers' committee with reasonable information for the proper performance of its functions. I expect the SRA and the regulator to cooperate with requests from the council for information. We will be issuing instructions and guidance to the SRA on this matter under provisions elsewhere in the Bill.

I respect the origin and motivation of the noble Baroness's amendment, but I believe that the regime for passenger representation, which is set out in the Bill, is consistent with other legislation and the needs of rail passengers.

Baroness Wilcox

I thank the Minister for his response, particularly in relation to something I had not even read! It related to the information and I apologise that I did not outline the point.

I have had a response but not the response I would have liked. The Bill's weakness as regards information suggests that the Government do not really intend the rail passengers' council to be an independent voice in the same way as the GECC should become. I am sorry about that.

I listened to the Minister's response to my amendment, but at this late hour I shall withdraw it and reserve the right to return.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 316B to 316G not moved.]

Schedule 17 agreed to.

Clause 216 agreed to.

Schedule 18 agreed to.

Clause 217 [Functions relating to Board's property]:

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood moved Amendment No. 317: Page 130, line 2, at end insert— ("provided that before disposing of any land the Authority shall, in consultation with the local transport authority and other interested persons, consider what potential for rail or other transport related use such land might offer, and protect the land accordingly").

The noble Baroness said: Clause 217 relates to the transfer of property and other rights and liabilities from the board to the Strategic Rail Authority. Before I go further, perhaps I may say that I welcome that transfer because it is possible that the land and other rights will he used in a way which is related to the purposes of the SRA rather than purely to property portfolio purposes.

Nevertheless, in recent years we have seen large-scale and continuing disposal of such property. If we want to expand the rail network, as we discussed earlier, it is important to ensure that nothing is disposed of which could be used at a later date. That is the purpose of the amendments, which, I confess, are rather infelicitously drafted. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, whose almost identical amendment is grouped with mine, has the right end of the stick, drafting-wise.

However, I believe that we should consider these issues seriously. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me that my hopes for the role of the SRA, as the holder of the property portfolio, are not misplaced. I beg to move.

Lord Berkeley

I support Amendments Nos. 317 and 318 and speak to my Amendment No. 319. As the noble Baroness says, there is a remarkable similarity between them.

As many Members of the Committee will he aware, there is a long history of problems with regard to British Rail land. Even if we ignore the fact that a great deal of the land that was of any use probably has now been sold, I believe that as a result of activities in the past two or three years the situation has improved. However, of the land that remains in the ownership of the British Rail Property Board, probably only 10 per cent is of use for passengers or freight. It is to that that I address my remarks.

First, my amendment suggests that Clause 217(4) should be removed because I am not happy that the terms of Clause 217 should not apply to Clause 206, which relates to the manner in which the authority exercises its function. I believe that land which is of use for rail should be used in furtherance of the authority's objectives and functions, and so on.

I was heartened by comments made by my honourable friend the Minister with responsibility for railways in the other place, Keith Hill, who indicated that he believed it right that the SRA should be able to hold land if it was likely to he required for use withal approximately a 20-year horizon. That seems to me to be strategic, and I hope that the Minister here will confirm the strategic view that was expressed at that time. Therefore, the first part of my amendment refers to the need for consultation and a little strategy before land is sold.

The second part relates to an issue which I believe can be described in one or two examples. If a piece of land is retained by the SRA and an organisation wishes to acquire it for transport use, be it a car park, a station, a rail freight terminal, a branch line or whatever, the suspicion remains that the SRA, while allowing the organisation to buy it, will require the land to be sold at the highest price that could have been obtained if it had been sold for office or commercial development.

I do not believe that that is confined to transport. I believe that it is a Treasury rule covering all departments that the highest price must be obtained for a piece of land, regardless of its use. Only 100 or so sites may fall within that category, but they are important sites. It would be nice to think that the SRA could agree with the industry and others and get a commitment from Ministers that they would be free to deal with the issue without having to get the highest price relating to commercial development.

I hope that that was a helpful comment. I look forward to hearing what my noble friend has to say.

1.15 a.m.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston

I understand noble Lords' concerns to ensure that surplus land is not lost by default. The aim of the amendments is to give some statutory protection to land that will pass from the British Railways Board to the SRA. Amendment No. 319 would have the further effect of permitting the SRA to dispose of land and property required in furtherance of its purposes at prices reflecting its transport use.

Clause 217 deals with property, rights and liabilities of the British Railways Board that are not needed by the SRA for the exercise of its other functions. In other words, the disposal arrangements under Clause 217 apply only where the SRA considers that land does not have a railway potential. There is therefore no statutory impediment to the SRA retaining land that has a reasonably foreseeable railways use. Clause 217 enables the Secretary of State to give the SRA a direction about how land that could serve a transport use other than railways is to be disposed of or otherwise dealt with by the SRA. That could include a direction to consider alternative transport use before disposal.

There would need to be a strong case for supporting the industry by disposing of land at less than open market value rather than by the more transparent way of using the SRA's broad financial powers under Clause 210. Cases in which there is a conflict between transport use and land value will be considered by the SRA on an individual basis.

I recognise that the sales programme of the British Railways Board caused alarm in some quarters. That is why we suspended sales of remaining BR land in July 1998 and asked BR to undertake a review of its land holdings, which was completed last September.

The review showed 1,400 sites, of which only 200 had physical characteristics that would make them suitable for transport use. Transport groups and local authorities subsequently registered an interest in more than that number of sites. Many of the remainder are small, disparate sites, or ones with development problems such as poor access. A large number are remote from operational railways and have no conceivable transport use.

Following the review, we put in place new procedures that ensure that possible transport uses are identified, give priority to transport use and enable essential transport needs to be safeguarded. BR's Rail Property Limited acts as agent for sales and the shadow SRA scrutinises sites for strategic purposes.

Since we lifted the suspension of land sales, Rail Property Limited has initiated the first phase of sales by issuing formal notification of its intention to market 600 sites. Registrations of interest were invited from transport organisations and local authorities. They are now being considered by the shadow SRA.

Some land sales are going ahead where no transport interest is registered in the land, where the land is being sold for transport use or where the British Railways Board is legally committed to a sale.

The shadow SRA is currently reviewing sites where a potential transport interest has been identified and is consulting, particularly with freight interests. The SRA will consider very carefully any potential freight sites and will not seek to sell them ahead of others in the portfolio, except where there is clear demand from transport operators for freight use.

Land decisions will be taken in the context of the SRA's emerging strategy. The shadow SRA is developing procedures for the rigorous evaluation of the potential of sites. I am pleased to announce that the shadow SRA intends to appoint a new advisory board to review sites and advise on potential transport use. The advisory board will have an external chairman and members reflecting freight, passenger and local authority interests. I hope your Lordships will welcome that robust, independent source of advice.

The SRA will withhold sites from the sales process where potential strategic transport use can be established that is consistent with local transport plans. That will allow time for detailed consideration of future ownership and use and for obtaining any necessary planning consents. I hope that those assurances answer the concerns expressed about whether the sales process has identified all relevant sites, and the fear that it could pre-empt this year's local transport plans.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley said on Second Reading that he was not sure that the Minister's message had got through to the shadow SRA. I assure him that it has. That is demonstrated by the careful way in which any disposals are being considered.

I quote a few illustrations. Sites such as Menstrie and the Abbeyhill Loop are being offered for sale to Railtrack, and sales of all sites on the proposed Oxford to Cambridge route have been suspended until a decision is taken on this important proposed new rail scheme. I can assure the Committee that the shadow SRA is taking a strategic approach. The proposed property advisory board will assist this task.

Those arrangements strike the right balance between disposing of surplus land and ensuring that key sites for future transport use are identified and safeguarded. I hope that, in the light of these explanations and assurances, the noble Baroness will not press her amendment.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

That was an extremely full and interesting response. I am delighted to hear in particular of the possibility that the old Oxford-Cambridge line may be reinstated in all its glory. I remember it well.

What the Minister said deserves careful study. It makes me regret all the more that the idea of a Strategic Rail Authority was not brought into legislation some years ago because we might then have avoided some of the nonsenses which arose out of a purely commercial attitude to land, which was exhibited by the BRB. But we cannot look behind us; we must look ahead. For the moment, and probably for good, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment Nos. 318 and 319 not moved.]

Clause 217 agreed to.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood moved Amendment No. 320: After Clause 217. insert the following new clause—