Penalty Fares (Hansard, 25 January 2000)

§ Baroness Thomas of Walliswood
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they intend to review the penalty fares systems currently in use on the railways.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Lord Macdonald of Tradeston)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no plans to review the penalty fares system. Train operators' penalty fares schemes are a matter for the Rail Regulator.

§ Baroness Thomas of Walliswood
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, the noble Lord will be aware that railway penalty fares schemes arouse some anger among passengers who think they are unfair. One reason why they believe them to be unfair is that it is so often quite difficult to buy a ticket in the first place. Can the noble Lord tell us whether the Government feel that they can use the franchising arrangements to ensure that the levying of penalty fares will only be allowed for train companies that provide adequate and convenient ticket purchasing facilities?

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
My Lords, I know from the reaction in the House today that many noble Lords share the sentiments that lie behind the Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Walliswood. However, under the Transport Bill, which is presently going through its Committee stage in another place, responsibility for penalty fares schemes will be transferred from the Office of the Rail Regulator to the strategic rail authority. We feel that the interests of consumers are better placed there. But 1415 that is not in any way to undermine the splendid efforts that the Office of the Rail Regulator has made to ensure that there is a high degree of assurance in the present schemes and that inspectors exercise their discretion properly. We would also ask, quite reasonably, that passengers allow sufficient time for purchase of their tickets. Let us be clear: if there are no facilities available for the purchase of a ticket, there is no liability.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I introduced a private Bill on this subject some years ago and therefore I have a particular interest in it. Is the Minister aware that at that time there was much discussion as regards the necessity of providing machines which issue permits to travel? When these machines are available they work well. The machines are meant to record the station of embarkation and the date and time of embarkation. Will the regulator insist, or can it be provided for in the Bill at present before Parliament or in regulations, that every station has such a machine? Such a system would certainly distinguish between those who deliberately seek to evade paying their fare and those who simply cannot buy a ticket because the facilities to do so are not available.

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
My Lords, that is certainly a suggestion that the Rail Regulator and the strategic rail authority might bear in mind. I know that where these machines are in operation they seem to work well. However, we should also be aware that where any penalty is about to be imposed it is possible under the present system for checks to be made to ascertain whether ticket offices were open and facilities for buying a ticket available. When a penalty is imposed, information is issued on how an appeal may be made against that penalty.

§ Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is a considerable difference between a penalty fare and a fine imposed by a court for deliberately attempting to evade payment, and that no criminal stigma whatever is attached to the many distinguished public figures who cheerfully pay up when they find that, because of an honest mistake, they do not have a ticket? However, will my noble friend confirm that deliberate fare evasion is stealing by another name and that penalty fares were introduced in the 1980s on what used to be called Network SouthEast because the railways were losing in excess of£50 million a year and people who did not pay their fares were being subsidised by those of us who did?

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
My Lords, I readily confirm that a penalty fare is a supplementary fare and is not a fine and that fare evasion is a criminal offence. However, the amount of moneys raised—I think of London Transport rather than the railways in this connection— are small in the context of the overall revenues raised by London Underground, for 1416 example. However, I take my noble friend's point about the importance of deterrence. That deterrence must, of course, always be mediated by discretion.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, is the situation not confusing for passengers? On the Gatwick Express and the Heathrow Express one is positively encouraged to buy one's ticket on the train, but on the Stansted train, if one does not have a ticket, one is liable to a penalty fare. How can the average passenger know what he is supposed to do on those trains? How can foreign visitors in particular know what they are supposed to do?

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
My Lords, I am, of course, grateful to the previous government for the thorough work they undertook when instituting the present system in 1996. I accept that there can be differences, but there is no appropriate system that fits all train services. For example, guards travel on InterCity train services, but the majority of branch line stations are unstaffed. I accept that there is inevitably confusion, particularly for those new to our transport systems. However, I hope that advances in technology, and in smartcard travel and so on, will begin to minimise the kind of inconvenience that is too often experienced.

§ Lord Harrison
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that in a few years' time, if Britain belonged to the single currency, tourists coming pinto the United Kingdom, or British tourists returning, say, from Portugal with escudos jingling in their pockets, would not be embarrassed at barriers trying to buy tickets for trains?

§ Lord Macdonald of Tradeston
My Lords, the question of the euro is just slightly less sensitive than the question relating to the escudos. Therefore I shall reply by saying, "In all probability, yes".