HL Deb 17 February 2000 vol 609 cc1424-7

Introduction

9. For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule—

  1. (a) the appointed day is the day appointed under section 116 for the commencement of section 84:
  2. (b) the old Council is the Further Education Funding Council for Wales;
  3. (c) the new Council is the National Council for Education and Training for Wales;
  4. (d) the new Council's full functions are its functions under sections 31 to 43.

Transitional provisions

10. The old Council must do its best to secure that any functions remaining to be discharged by it at any time after the commencement of this paragraph are discharged before the appointed day.

11.—(1) Anything being done by or in relation to the old Council immediately before the appointed day may be continued on or after that day by or in relation to the new Council.

(2) In particular, any legal proceedings to which the old Council is a party immediately before the appointed day may be continued on or after that day by or in relation to the new Council.

12. Every agreement (whether written or not), and every instrument or other document, which relates to any property, right or liability to which section 84(1)(b) applies shall have effect, so far as may be required for continuing its effect on or after the appointed day, as if—

  1. (a) where the old Council is a party to it, the new Council were substituted as that party,
  2. (b) for a reference to the old Council there were substituted a reference to the new Council,
  3. (c) for a reference (however worded and whether express or implied) to the chairman, the chief officer or a member of the old Council there were substituted a reference to the chairman, the chief executive or a member of the new Council, and
  4. (d) for a reference to the office or place of business of the old Council there were substituted a reference to the office or place of business of the new Council.

13.—(1) This paragraph applies if the new Council is established before it acquires its full functions.

(2) The National Assembly may by order make provision—

  1. (a) conferring such powers on the new Council as the National Assembly thinks will help the new Council to carry out its full functions when it acquires them;
  2. (b) imposing on the old Council a duty to give such assistance to the new Council as the new Council may reasonably require to help it to carry out its full functions when it acquires them.

(3) The National Assembly may make an order under this paragraph at any time before the day on which the new Council acquires its full functions.

14. At any time before the day on which the new Council acquires its full functions, section 30(2) has effect as if for "10" there were substituted "2".

15.—(1) The new Council must discharge a duty which satisfies the following three conditions.

(2) The first condition is that the duty arises under—

  1. (a) section 8(6)(a) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (report on further education for disabled students), or
  2. (b) paragraph 16 of Schedule 1 to that Act (accounts).

(3) The second condition is that the duty arises in respect of a period ending before the appointed day.

(4) The third condition is that apart from this Act the duty—

  1. (a) would have fallen to be discharged by the old Council after the appointed day, or
  2. (b) fell to be discharged by the old Council before the appointed day but has not been discharged.

16. If an order under section 8(4) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 confers or imposes a function on the old Council, on or after the appointed day the order is to be treated as if—

  1. (a) it were made under section 43(4) of this Act, and
  2. (b) it conferred or imposed the function on the new Council.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 114 [Orders and regulations]:

Lord Bach moved Amendment No. 251: Page 52, line 41, leave out ("section 18(4) or 89(1)(c)") and insert ("any provision of this Act other than section 112(4) or 116(1)").

The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend, I move this amendment and speak also to Amendments Nos. 252 to 257. I speak also to those amendments in the names of other noble Lords.

The Bill provides for delegated powers only when necessary to ensure that administrative arrangements are sufficiently flexible to respond to changing circumstances. Most of the provisions for delegated legislation follow closely the model for existing legislation. Where there are new provisions on individual learning accounts and joint inspection, we have provided illustrative regulations for the House to consider.

The department proposed Amendments Nos. 251 and 255 in its memorandum to the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee in order to provide appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of delegated provisions. The committee agreed that this amendment was necessary. In its report it said that the department had demonstrated, sensitive appreciation and application of the criteria to govern the use of delegated legislation".

Amendment No. 252 is a consequential amendment to Amendment No. 68, which was withdrawn by the noble Baroness. I hope that she will do likewise with this amendment.

I am grateful for the close scrutiny that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, has paid to all aspects of this Bill. I am pleased to confirm that the effects of the amendments in her name and that of her noble friend Lord Roberts, Amendments Nos. 253, 254 and 256, are included within the more comprehensive government amendments to Clause 114. With that assurance, I hope she will conclude that Amendments Nos. 253, 254 and 256 are unnecessary and that she will not move them.

Amendment No. 257 would make the use of delegated powers by the National Assembly for Wales subject to the annulment procedure of this Parliament. Delegated legislation relating to Wales is a matter for the National Assembly, not this House, and therefore the effect of Amendment No. 257 would run counter to the devolution policy of the Government of Wales Act. For that reason I hope that that particular amendment will not be moved. I beg to move.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Cox)

If this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 252 to 254 because of pre-emption.

Baroness Blatch

I am grateful that my own amendment has been subsumed. I take it that regulations relating to joint inspections will be subject to the annulment procedure. My noble friend cannot be with us this evening. Amendments Nos. 253 and 254 are in his name. I understand from what the Minister has just said that they too are subsumed and therefore become otiose.

My noble friend has asked me to record that the noble Lord has struck a blow for Parliament with these amendments, providing that statutory instruments relating to orders and regulations made under, any provisions of this Act", with two understandable exemptions, are subject to annulment and that they must include the provisions relating to Wales, such as they are.

Amendments Nos. 253 and 254 in the name of my noble friend specify that an order made by the National Assembly under Section 43(4) or Section 89(2)(c) is subject to this parliamentary annulment procedure. My noble friend believes that the noble Lord had divined his purpose. My noble friend has therefore asked me not to move his amendments.

I want to make it absolutely clear that, given that this is a reserve power to the National Assembly, nevertheless we have taken upon ourselves that it will be this Parliament that not only determines primary legislation, but which will also have powers to annul the regulations. That seems to me to be at odds with what devolution to Wales really means.

Lord Bach

Perhaps I may make it clear. I obviously was not clear enough before. As regards Amendment No. 253 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, that is subsumed. But Amendment. No. 257 would make the use of delegated powers by the National Assembly for Wales subject to the annulment procedure of this Parliament. That cannot happen under delegated legislation because that legislation relating to Wales is a matter for the National Assembly and not for this House. Therefore, if we were to accept that amendment—I am grateful that the noble Baroness is not seeking to move it—it would run counter to the Government of Wales Act. I hope that that is a sufficient answer for the noble Baroness.

Baroness Blatch

I am not sure now. I shall have to confer with my noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy. Like me, my noble friend understood that the annulment powers were being given to this Parliament. Therefore, he thought that Amendments Nos. 253 and 254 would, in that sense, be otiose. If they are not, then my noble friend might not have wished to withdraw them. Unless the Minister can offer some further clarification, we shall have to read what he said before making a decision.

Lord Bach

We look forward to returning to this point on Report if the noble Baroness and her noble friend think it worth raising again. However, perhaps we may be able to discuss the matter before then so that we do not waste the time of the House.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

I should point out to the Committee that, if the following amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 256 because of pre-emption.

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendment No. 255: Page 52, line 43. leave out ("section 93 or 94") and insert ("any provision of this Act").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 257 not moved.]

Clause 114, as amended, agreed to

Clause 115 agreed to.

Schedule 9 agreed to.

Clause 116 [Commencement]:

Baroness Blackstone moved Amendment 258: Page 53, line 12, leave out subsections (3) to (6).

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 116, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 117 and 118 agreed to.

In the Title

[Amendment No. 259 not moved.]

House resumed. Bill reported with amendments.

Back to
Forward to