HL Deb 11 December 2000 vol 620 cc119-35

4.4 p.m.

The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Jay of Paddington)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. The Statement is as follows:

"With permission, I shall make a Statement on the European Council which took place from 7th to 10th December. A copy of the conclusions has been placed in the Library of the House and a copy of the Nice treaty will also be deposited as soon as a final version is available from the Council Secretariat.

"This summit was the culmination of a year-long conference called to deal with issues on which agreement could not be reached at Amsterdam three years ago. Agreement was essential to open the door to the enlargement of the European Union—the goal of successive British governments.

"An agreement was reached in the early hours of this morning which removes all remaining institutional obstacles to enlargement. It is extraordinary to think that a few years ago those countries in central and eastern Europe were still under the communist yoke of the old Soviet bloc. Today, there is the real prospect of uniting western and eastern Europe for the first time in generations.

"The primary objective in the negotiation has therefore been successfully accomplished. But there were also key British interests. Our first priority was to get more voting strength for the United Kingdom.

"The agreement reached increases the weight of Britain's vote. It raises the threshold for QMV up, when the EU will be 27, to over 74 per cent of votes. It adds two further tests: any proposal must have at least a majority of states on side, as well as crossing the 74 per cent threshold; and a new population threshold at 62 per cent of the EU is introduced. So the three biggest countries will continue, even as the EU enlarges, to be able to block together. This now can be placed alongside the changes in Britain's financial contributions.

"Ever since we joined the EU, Britain has made a far greater proportionate contribution to Europe's finances than France or Italy, despite, until recently, being a slightly smaller economy. By 2006, on the assumption of only six new member states, we shall be making a net contribution roughly equivalent to France and Italy for the first time in our membership.

"Secondly, on defence, the European Council agreed the arrangements for European security that we have negotiated over the past two years. It was made plain, first, that European defence would operate only when NATO chooses not to be engaged; secondly, that it be limited to peacekeeping, humanitarian and crisis management tasks; and, thirdly, that, as the text puts it, the commitment of national assets to any EU-led operation will be based on 'sovereign national decisions'. Collective defence will remain the responsibility of NATO. The next step is for the two organisations, the EU and NATO, to agree on the necessary arrangements. Any significant operation will require NATO assets and any such operation will be planned at NATO by the planning staff at SHAPE. This underlines the EU's aim to develop a strategic partnership with NATO. So here, too, Britain's essential national interest has been protected.

"Thirdly, we have retained unanimity where necessary and extended qualified majority voting where necessary.

"Of the articles that move to QMV, 11 are appointments or changes in rules of procedure. One of these is important—the nomination of the Commission president, where it is essential that, in an EU of 27 or 30, one small state cannot block the right appointment. Nine of the changes deal with freedom of movement, where we have an absolute right to decide whether to take part, thanks to the protocol we secured at Amsterdam. The remainder are primarily about the efficiency of economic management and the single market, where majority voting is in the national interest: financial management of the EU budget, industrial policy and trade in services. That means new markets for British financial services and the jobs and prosperity that go with it. And within these articles we have kept unanimity where we need it: unanimity for harmonisation in anti-discrimination measures, unanimity for passports, unanimity for anything to do with taxation and social security.

"However, there were areas where it would not have been in our interests to agree to qualified majority voting, in particular for taxation and social security. As we undertook to the House, these matters will remain subject to unanimity. In the field of justice and home affairs, the special protocol we agreed at Amsterdam continues to mean that we decide where to join in co-operation in our national interest; for example, in dealing with problems of asylum. On all these issues we said that we would protect the national interest and, contrary to the dire warnings of the party opposite, that is exactly what we did. The House will note with some amusement their claims now that these issues were never under threat.

"In an enlarged European Union there will inevitably be issues where some member states can move ahead faster than others. It is in Britain's interests, as one of the leading partners of the European Union, for that to be possible. We have secured conditions for this co-operation which fully safeguard the single market, prevent discrimination in trade between member states, cannot conflict with existing agreements and are open to all. In the field of foreign policy, the common strategies of the Union will continue to be set by unanimity. Any cooperation between groups of member states has to be consistent with a prior agreement reached by all and is subject to national veto if necessary. These enhanced co-operation agreements will not apply to defence—another key British objective secured.

"On numbers of Commissioners, up to 2005 unchanged, except for one for any applicant country. Then from 2006, one Commissioner per country up to a maximum of 27, from its present 20, with agreement to reduce numbers in 2010, following a review.

"Since the Amsterdam Summit of three-and-a-half years ago, we have tried to rebuild British policy in Europe, to get the best out of Europe for Britain while shaping Europe's future. On each occasion we were told that it was impossible; that Britain versus Europe was the only game in town. At Amsterdam, we were told we could not protect our borders. We did. Two years ago, in Berlin, we were told we could not protect the British rebate. We did better. We put Britain's contributions on a more equitable footing for the first time. Then, at Lisbon, we were told Europe could not accept the agenda for economic reforms. It did.

"Earlier this year, in June's summit, we were told we could not win the argument on the withholding tax. It is won. The rest of Europe is now going to adopt exchange of information, not a new tax, as the way forward.

"Finally, here on defence, we were told we could not improve Europe's defence capability —a vital NATO as well as EU interest—without undermining NATO and that we would be isolated on tax and social security. We secured all our objectives without it even being suggested that we were an obstacle in the way of enlargement.

"It is possible to Fight Britain's corner, to get the best out of Europe for Britain and exercise real authority and influence in Europe. That is as it should be. Britain is a world power. To stand aside from the key alliance—the EU—right on our doorstep is not advancing Britain's interests, It is betraying them.

"Enlargement will now happen. British interests were advanced. But we cannot continue to take decisions as important as this in this way. This is not a criticism of the French presidency, which did well in immensely difficult circumstances. But the ideas for future reform in the EU which Britain put forward a few weeks ago are now essential so that a more rational way of decision-making is achieved. This too is a debate in which we should be thoroughly and constructively engaged. And we will be.

"The Europe that this Government are striving for is one of nation states with their own traditions, cultures and special interests, working together in their own interests and in those of Europe as a whole. That means, on the one hand, making common decisions at a European level where that makes sense and, on the other hand. making decisions at a national or regional level where that makes sense. It means embracing all the countries of Europe, east and west, in a way that would have been unimaginable throughout most of the troubled history of our continent. It is a goal which moved forward in Nice. I commend it to the House".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

4.13 p.m.

Lord Howell of Guildford

My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, I have been asked to reply from these Benches. Straightaway, I thank the noble Baroness most warmly for the usual clarity and eloquence with which she has repeated the Statement. Perhaps I may also add a word of thanks, through her, to the officials, who must have ended the summit at some godless hour this morning. They must have worked extremely hard after a very uncomfortable weekend—both physically and intellectually—to cobble something together. They usually get forgotten and I should like to add a word of thanks to them.

Before I come to my questions, does the noble Baroness accept that we on this side are totally committed to enlargement and to the bringing together of a Europe of free and independent states, for which so many British citizens, including the relatives of many people in the House, fought and died? I hope that that is not in question—although, unfortunately, I have seen it questioned in some quarters.

Was the Nice Summit really about enlargement? Was it really and truly the only trigger required for the enlargement process to go forward? Will the Nice agreements, such as they are, speed up enlargement by a single day in practice? If the aim was enlargement at Nice, why on earth was there not discussion about the common agricultural policy, which everyone knows is by far the biggest block for the applicant states in joining the European Union? It is a problem, particularly for the Poles. Why was there not discussion about easing the acquis communautaire burden, which is causing enormous difficulties for Hungary, the Czech Republic and other applicant states? Why was there not any suggestion that the applicant states should become members now, as has been suggested in some quarters, in order that they may share in the future shaping of the Europe of which they will be part? None of these matters was brought forward, which raises the question of whether enlargement was the primary aim.

We on this side have no difficulties with the proposal for a single Commissioner or, indeed, for Commission reform. It is badly needed. The Commission has an expansionist tendency which is long overdue for curbing. In my personal view, the Commission reform should have been much more radical. But we are happy with that.

We have no particular difficulties with the weighting of votes, although clearly it caused a lot of problems at Nice. I must confess to personal unease—and it is personal—that we should perhaps be not speaking up as strongly as Britain used to for the smaller nations of Europe. There seems to be a danger that we could now get a line up between the small nations and the big ones and that this quarrel could upset the whole equilibrium of the whole European Union.

Nor are we worried about flexibility, provided that it is kept under restraint and that there is a veto ultimately on that flexibility or enhanced cooperation. I am not clear from the Statement whether that veto is still in place. Perhaps the noble Baroness will tell us in a moment.

As to QMV extensions, we are constantly told that 80 per cent of all EU issues are covered already by QMV. I think it is reasonable to ask why we want more. I know that the answer will be that Britain has to get its way and we will have to push through more decisions once the Community is enlarged. But the truth is that the CAP has been under QMV for years, and that has got us nowhere in terms of opening up the markets that we want or obtaining the reforms of the CAP that we want.

There is a deeper question. Why is it so unquestionably good that the flood of controls and regulations from the centre should always be made easier to manage and smoother? Some people of a democratic turn of mind might question whether it is sensible always to be aiming for a bigger and better sausage machine to turn out more laws and controls. Is streamlining really the best way to democracy? The American founding fathers, for example, took the opposite view. They thought it was more important to block executive power in an overweening form. Perhaps we should think about that occasionally.

We are, of course, glad that taxation is protected by unanimity—that is, indeed, if it was ever threatened in the first place. I understood that the whole issue was non-negotiable. I cannot quite see why, if it was non-negotiable, it is a great victory that it has not been negotiated.

But surely 80 per cent is enough. Indeed, many people would say today, in an age which is against centralisation, that 80 per cent is too much. What about taking things the other way, away from the centre? What happened, for instance, to subsidiarity? What happened to the dream of returning powers to nation states and ending the relentless centralism, of which, so the Foreign Secretary keeps telling us, Maastricht was supposed to be the high water mark? Is it not the truth that Nice has not been primarily about enlargement but about the passion for further integration, which many of us doubt is the best way to the kind of stable and democratic Europe that we want to see?

The charter of fundamental human rights seems to have evaporated from the Statement. I should like to know what has happened to it. We have many worries about it becoming mandatory, but it seems to have received no mention in the Statement.

As to the plan for a new IGC in 2004, is that not the next step in the integration process? It is difficult to understand why the Government seem to be in denial about all these glaringly obvious developments.

In regard to defence, I note what is said in the Statement, but it does not seem to answer the fears expressed by Secretary Cohen in his speech the other day. Is there or is there not to be a separate command structure? Is there or is there not to be a separate operational planning system and separate headquarters for the new European force? If so, are the Americans right that, if there is separation, it could be a catastrophe for NATO? Are the claims of Ministers that the USA is not worried still true? If Mr Cohen's speech is anything to go by, they appear to be flatly and disgracefully inaccurate. I know that the House will debate this matter later in the week, but there are a lot of obscurities to clear up.

We do not like the trends towards more central power, on the bogus excuse that they are needed for enlargement, of which too much of the acrid Nice discussions seem to be part. We do not believe that these trends are in the interests of either Britain or the wider, more open and democratic Europe that we want to see and work for. Quite honestly, we do not know whether we are being told the full truth by the Government and its "spin" experts about NATO or anything else. We believe that the British people are entitled to many more answers than they have yet been offered about what is really going on in the EU and the direction in which it is being taken.

The Government keep saying that the summit has been a "victory" and a "success". To misquote King Pyrrhus, if we have any more such victories, the EU will be in very deep trouble indeed. This treaty takes our Europe in the wrong direction. If that is not obvious now, it soon will be.

4.21 p.m.

Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. We have heard an interesting response from the noble Lord, Lord Howell—one very different from that given by his leader, Mr William Hague, in another place. Only half an hour ago, I heard Mr Hague twice use the expression, "three more major steps towards a European superstate". I was glad that the noble Lord used no words of that kind. Indeed, only once did he refer to "integration"; and the phrase used by his leader in another place, "the ratchet of integration", was repeated. The noble Lord made a thoughtful contribution. I can agree with some of his remarks: for example, his reference to the UK championship of smaller states, which was not very apparent in the communique or in the events of last weekend.

There is no ducking the plain fact that—clumsily, even imperfectly—Nice has delivered on the main issue before it; namely, enlargement. "Enlargement will now happen" is the phrase used by the Prime Minister in the Statement. Indeed, it will; and Nice put the seal on that. My heart does not sing, but I welcome the achievement nevertheless.

On the question of the size of the Commission, I think all of us would have preferred it to be the present size or possibly smaller. There is a great deal to be said for a Commission of 12 or 15 members. I believe it was my noble friend Lord Thomson of Monifieth who said in an earlier debate in this House that, realistically, the number of members is likely to be 27. If that is the case, so be it; we need not argue too much about it.

On the question of votes and qualified majority voting, it is very difficult to find a balance between the large nations and the small ones. As I have implied, I am not quite so enthusiastic as the Prime Minister about the three largest nations effectively continuing to have a veto; but so be it. A balance has to be found, and I do not quarrel too much with the solution reached at Nice.

As the Statement makes plain, Nice has also delivered on the matter of the rapid reaction force. In looking at some back papers the other day, I reminded myself that it was in 1950, at Strasbourg, that Winston Churchill called for a European army—and that led to a four-year debate on the European defence community. The idea was abandoned; however, all of us who have been involved in either European affairs or defence affairs over this half century know that there has been a continuing debate on how to keep the United States engaged in Europe through NATO and at the same time the need for Europe to make its own contribution to its defence. If there were not so much partisanship on this issue at the present time, the outcome would be judged by many to be a fair one. For that reason, there would be some satisfaction with what has happened at Nice.

One part of the debate which underlies the tone of the Prime Minister's remarks today is the question of Britain's interests. It sometimes seems to be implied that Britain joined what was then the European Economic Community for the sake of the rest of Europe rather than because it was in Britain's best interests. But the important question—which should have been confronted at Nice—is not what might be the short-term interest of any country but what is in the long-term interest of us all. The formation of the European Community was an historic development. Britain's decision to join was an historic change of direction. We should recognise that, even if some battles are lost in terms of our immediate self-interest, the benefit historically can be a great deal more and will compensate for any short-term concessions. I get a little tired—although I understand why—of heads of government coming back to their countries claiming that there has been a great victory for their country and for themselves. I wish that they would sometimes come back and say, "It's been a great victory for European union and for our working together on political as well as economic affairs".

Referring to the weekend at Nice, the Prime Minister said that we cannot continue to make decisions this way. All of us must have some sympathy given the time that he spent there and the ups and downs of the discussion. But this may well be the new diplomacy. This is, after all, open "covenance", openly arrived at—which some were talking about almost a century ago. Three or four days of hard work, with all the uncertainty that was involved, is a small price to pay for the outcome, if the outcome is of the kind that we have seen on this occasion.

Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness a number of related questions. First, there is a reference in the Statement to the period before the Nice Summit when there were discussions with the applicant states. What has been the reaction of the applicant states to the outcome of Nice; and do they feel that there is now a suitable platform for further entries? Secondly, much to the surprise of many of us, there is no reference in the Statement to a further IGC in 2004. Where has that proposal gone? I understood that it was referred to by the Prime Minister in a statement that he made shortly before his departure. Thirdly, on the question of enhanced co-operation, the anxiety of many of us has been that it will lead to a two-tier European Union. The Statement refers to conditions that have been agreed, which, as I understand it, will impede the possibility of that developing. Will the Minister say a little more about what the conditions are that will prevent that undesirable development?

4.28 p.m.

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their reaction to the Statement. I join the noble Lord, Lord Howell, in congratulating those people—among them the officials on planes, in the Foreign Office and in Downing Street—who have worked so hard to produce the information that we have before us and which I have attempted to convey. However, I say in advance that the final text of the treaty, for example, is not yet fully available. Immediately it is, a copy will be placed in the Library. I shall try, as I hope I always do, to be as helpful as possible to noble Lords; however, this may be an occasion when I may have to say that I shall write to them rather more often than I customarily care to do. That is not because of lack of information prepared for me by officials but simply because everything has been, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, rather scrambled together on the basis of events that took place at four or five o'clock this morning.

I welcome the statement of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that he and Members on the Benches behind him are totally committed to the principles of enlargement. The Nice treaty, like the negotiations, is entirely directed to that end in order to achieve greater security, political stability and prosperity for this country and indeed the whole of Europe. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, that there was a slight difference in tone between what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said and what Mr Hague said in another place. I entirely welcome the tone adopted by the noble Lord.

On the specific questions raised by the noble Lord, I very much welcome his constructive approach to the reform and size of the Commission and to the number of Commissioners from each individual member country.

He asked about the reweighting of votes and whether by 2004 any of the applicant countries would be present to take place in a subsequent IGC. I can confirm that that has been agreed and will take place in 2004. The noble Lord will also know from the statements made by the Prime Minister in Nice this morning that it is hoped and expected that the applicant countries that are able to do so will be at the table in 2004 to take part in that IGC. Therefore, I hope that that question has been answered.

It is right, of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, that some of these matters should be more widely referred to the national parliaments. That was part of the burden of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister's address to the Warsaw Stock Exchange earlier in the autumn, when he mentioned what he hoped would be an increasing role for national parliaments in arriving at these decisions and in at least being more actively involved in the discussions leading to them.

The noble Lord raised the question of qualified majority voting. I am sure he will be aware that this country is pleased that QMV has been adopted in some areas—for example, in the greater extension of trade and particularly in the area of financial services. Another specific example is the professional movement across the European continent of people with particular skills in that area.

The noble Lord also asked about the charter. That was not mentioned in the Statement because the Government's position, which was that this was a political declaration, was adopted easily and early in Nice and, therefore, was not regarded as of headline value for the Statement that was made in another place.

The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, raised the question of whether anybody from the applicant countries had commented on what had happened at Nice and seen that as opening the way for enlargement. By way of example, I quote the Polish Prime Minister, who this morning said that it is exceptionally favourable to Poland, and that enlargement by 2004 at the latest is very good news. A significant quotation that I have from a particularly important candidate country is that the Union, in his view, is not putting off enlargement.

The noble Lord also raised the question of the IGC, which I have mentioned. The point that he made about the question of smaller countries has been acknowledged by the UK. In the context of our national position, it was important to achieve the first enhancement of our own voting rights within the EU since we joined. That, of course, puts us in a comparatively stronger position. It also meets some of the arguments about the way in which other changes to the Commission might have diminished the authority of this country, without necessarily causing any of the problems referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers.

On the general overview of what happened, I draw to the attention of noble Lords, and specifically to the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, the points made by my right honourable friend in his speech to the Warsaw Stock Exchange, in which he referred to a different way of doing business within the European Union, which would, for example, perhaps require an agenda for European activity to be tabled by the individual countries—and indeed by the Commission—to be reviewed annually. That would perhaps reduce some of the necessity for the rather extended, frenetic, and under-the-spotlight negotiation and consideration that has taken place in the past few days. I am sure that the noble Lord, as a parliamentarian, welcomes the point that I made a few moments ago about the enhanced role for European parliaments in a different type of working. I believe that those are the significant points, involving a more considered way of doing business, on which my right honourable friend sought to insist.

The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, questioned whether this matter was regarded as a game to be won. My right honourable friend made it clear in the Statement that he did not want Britain's engagement with Europe always to be regarded as Britain versus Europe. He would prefer it to be seen as part of a more generally enhanced arrangement.

On the European defence union, the simple answers to the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, are, "No, no, no". I quote what was said by the Prime Minister in Nice this morning. He said: The conclusions make absolutely clear that NATO is the cornerstone of our collective defence, that European defence in the circumstances where NATO as a whole decides not to be engaged, is limited to the peacekeeping and humanitarian tasks, and it is only where the sovereign decisions of each individual country is taken in respect of each individual mission. That is now absolutely clear". I hope that the noble Lord will agree.

With regard to the potential for contrasting aims as between this country and the European Union as a whole, I should point out to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, that the summit has demonstrated that, if we continue to take the leadership that we have taken, we can protect our vital national interests and advance those national interests in the European Union. The emphasis is as much on the second part as the first.

4.35 p.m.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, I shall not detain the House too long. The Select Committee will meet tomorrow and will no doubt ask many more questions of Mr Vaz than time permits today. However, it is probably fair to say that when we take the report from your Lordships' Select Committee on the IGC, it will emerge that the committee will feel pleased about the progress that has been made in respect of a number of points. Particularly in relation to enlargement, the road blocks that stood in the way following Amsterdam seem to have been cleared.

Perhaps I may ask the Leader of the House about the number of Commissioners. We recommended that, if possible, the number of Commissioners should be reduced to below 20. However, that was said with little hope of achievement at this stage. I note from the Statement that, once the figure reaches 27, there is an agreement to reduce the number in 2010. Will the noble Baroness indicate what mechanisms are envisaged to ensure the rotation of Commissioners? The rotation of Commissioners will mean, of course, that countries from time to time will have no Commissioner at all. Is there a general agreement that that should be the situation?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, for welcoming the Statement. I am also grateful to him for saying that he believes that the Select Committee will welcome some parts of this treaty. That is very important in terms of your Lordships' scrutiny.

With regard to the number of Commissioners, the detail has not been finalised. It may be that a further indication will be given following subsequent meetings. The principle is that after the EU reaches 27 members, the Commissioners will rotate. As I understand it, that principle would enable smaller countries, which the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, was concerned would perhaps not get their fair share of the cake, to be involved. Of course, it would mean that there would be occasions when the larger countries might not have a Commissioner for the whole of a presidency. That is one of the reasons why there was such concern to reweight the voting in a way that would enable the larger countries to retain their potential for a veto.

Lord Shore of Stepney

My Lords, we must await a copy of the revised draft of the treaty, about which, as was rightly said by my noble friend, we have to be patient. But the Statement begins and continues with a fundamental error. It begins with the most obvious and fundamental error; namely, that a copy of the presidency conclusions has been placed in the Library. I believe that we would all agree that one cannot judge a statement without having the presidency conclusions. There is a copy of a document purporting to be the presidency conclusions in the Library of the House and in the Vote Office—the trouble is that it is dated 8th December and the authors are COREPER, who wrote it on the second day of the conference. In other words, it does not relate to the conclusions reached on the fourth or fifth day, depending when one begins counting. Therefore, it is virtually worthless and empty. All we have heard thus far is the Statement repeated by my noble friend, which, inevitably, cannot be particularly comprehensive.

Having laid out that rather fundamental, preliminary point, perhaps I may take up the very important surrender of the veto, which needs to be emphasised. That is the vital provision about enhanced co-operation, which enables a vanguard group to go ahead without unanimity towards that ever-closer union that a number of our continental friends undoubtedly wish to achieve, whatever our reservations may be. The veto—the unanimity rule—that we previously held on that provision—namely, that it could not go ahead unless all the other parties agreed—has gone over the whole area of the treaty of economic union of the EC. It has also gone on that pillar which deals with home affairs and justice. It has been retained only in the pillar that deals with foreign policy and defence. That is a major surrender and a matter of some considerable concern.

I put to my noble friend the Minister the hope that a more serious presentation of what has been lost in this attempt to carry forward without success—

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton

My Lords, will my noble friend accept that he is taking an undue amount of time with his remarks, given the number of noble Lords who wish to speak on the Statement?

Lord Shore of Stepney

My Lords, in that case, I shall complete my sentence by saying that this has been a failed attempt to carry forward what should have been the joint aim of us all; namely, the extension of the European Union to take in the eastern European applicants.

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his final remarks about our acceptance of the need to extend and enlarge the European Union. I can only apologise to him for the state of the supporting paperwork. I had hoped that I had made the position clear, although, obviously I had misspoken—indeed, it appears that my right honourable friend may have misspoken—in terms of the opening remarks of the Statement regarding the final version of the presidency's conclusions. As I said at the beginning of my remarks, I have had some doubts about the way in which some of the conclusions already existed on paper. Indeed, as I pointed out, the treaty is not yet available.

On the question of enhanced co-operation, I shall write to my noble friend when full details are available. However, I believe that the right of veto on any system of enhanced co-operation, under whichever pillar, is still available. The question is how that is presented to the Council. It was previously a matter of it being automatically referred, but I understand that it now has to be positively proposed by different members of the Council, depending on the particular pillar in question. I shall write to my noble friend in that respect.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick

My Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm what she said to my noble friend Lord Howell; namely, that the Charter of Fundamental Rights will be purely declaratory? I say that because the document to which the noble Lord, Lord Shore, referred specifically says that the question of the charter's force will be considered "later". Is that just an example of the document that has been placed in the Library being wrong?

Further, perhaps I may warmly welcome the retention of the veto both on taxation and on social security. I refer the noble Baroness to the fourth from last paragraph of the Statement, which says that the Government had been warned before that they would be "isolated" on the question of social security. Can the noble Baroness confirm that Britain was in fact totally isolated on the question of social security? Indeed, Britain was the only country that did not want harmonisation of social security. Does the noble Baroness also recall that the Prime Minister said before the election that he would never allow Britain to be isolated again? Can she confirm that it is only because the Prime Minister has abandoned the naivety of that approach that we have achieved this successful outcome?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I do not wish in any way to concur with the noble Lord's view of the Prime Minister's motives, or, indeed, skills in achieving this outcome, but I am grateful for his congratulations on what has been achieved. When my right honourable friend speaks of being isolated in Europe, he speaks about being isolated in circumstances where we do not succeed in achieving what we wish to achieve and appear to be acting entirely against the interests of ourselves and of everyone else.

On the question of the charter of rights, I can tell the noble Lord that it was proclaimed as a political declaration. The reference to the issue being looked at later means that it would be reconsidered in 2004 in the context of the new IGC. But that would be a review without any prejudice to the outcome. Any change would always require unanimity. As the noble Lord knows, it is certainly not the intention of this Government to see it as anything other than a political declaration.

Lord Roper

My Lords, I am pleased, but not surprised, at the progress that was made at Nice on defence. However, there is one phrase in the Statement which I hope the noble Baroness can further elucidate. It reads: The next step is for the two organisations, the EU and NATO. to agree on the necessary arrangements". Can the noble Baroness tell the House whether that agreement will be more likely to come about now that proper provision has been made for the non-EU members of NATO, such as Turkey, to play a full part in the arrangements? Can she say what the timetable would be for such an arrangement? Further, can we have an assurance that the European Union will not become operational in its military activities until such an agreement with NATO has been reached?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am happy to tell the noble Lord that the answer to his final question is yes; that will be so. However, I am afraid that I do not have information regarding the possible timetable. But, certainly, as far as concerns Turkey, that will obviously be a help.

Lord Tomlinson

My Lords, is my noble friend the Leader of the House aware of the wide welcome that there is on this side of the House for the Prime Minister's endeavours at Nice? He has managed to combine two imperatives by getting the enlargement agenda firmly on the rails, while at the same time protecting essential national interests. As regards enlargement, is my noble friend in a position to confirm that the agreement reached at Nice in this respect reaffirms the timetable of the end of the year 2002 as being a feasible date for negotiations for enlargement to be concluded, and that, therefore, applicant countries could have aspirations of participating in the next round of the European elections in 2004? To that end, there are still important decisions to be taken, not least the one referred to by the noble Lord. Lord Howell; namely, the whole question of CAP reform.

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's accurate assessment of the way in which the Prime Minister conducted these negotiations and achieved the dual ends to which he referred. On the position of applicant countries, we shall certainly be ready by the year 2002 for that to take place. However, as I believe I said in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, although it says in the Statement and in the supporting documents that we hope, for example, that those countries that are in a suitable position will be able to be at the table in the 2004 IGC, their participation in the European elections is not specific. But, again, if further information of greater detail becomes available, I shall write to my noble friend.

When replying to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, I am afraid that I forgot to reply to his point about the common agricultural policy. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Tomlinson for reminding me of that omission. Of course, the noble Lord is right: the CAP is something that we, as a Government, would very much wish to see changed and reformed. Indeed, that is something for which we have been working for some time. However, as noble Lords will be aware, it was not on the agenda at Nice. It was not a case of failing to deal with the matter. It may be regarded as a rather inappropriate omission, but it was not a failure. The Government have been engaged in working on the issue for a very long time.

Lord Inglewood

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House whether there was a debate about the so-called "constitutionalisation" of the treaties during all these discussions—that is to say, their re-drafting in a form that will make them more comprehensible both to the expert and to the ordinary citizen? If the answer is yes, can the noble Baroness say what the Government's attitude towards this possible development might be?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot help the noble Lord as regards whether that matter was discussed at Nice. However, as he is probably aware, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister mentioned in a speech in Warsaw that in enhancing communication between the European institutions, whether they be the European Parliament, the Commission or the Council, some greater clarity in some of the documents and the rules and regulations relating to the Commission would be helpful. In that regard he specifically mentioned the treaties being made, as it were, user friendly. Therefore I am sure that I can say without fear of contradiction that, although I do not know whether the matter was discussed at Nice, it is something of which my right honourable friend would certainly be in favour.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that far from being "mugged" at Nice, as was widely predicted by the Opposition, the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister emerged with Britain's interests intact? Have not the discussions at Nice resulted in a wider, more democratic Europe than was envisaged in the past? Will this House and the House of Commons have an opportunity to discuss in detail the text which has been adumbrated at Nice by the Government and which we understand will be placed in the Library in due course?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, I am happy to confirm to my noble friend that the treaty in its full form will be placed in the Library of the House. I hope that that will occur not in due course but by tomorrow morning. That may be an optimistic assumption, but it is the one I have been given. I agree with my noble friend's comments as regards the way in which the Government and, indeed, the UK have emerged from the discussions at Nice. It confirms the Government's position that it is in Britain's interests to play a leading part in Europe and in the development of Europe. That will be in the best interests both of this country and of Europe as a whole. On the question of another debate, I understand that there will be a debate on the European defence aspects of the treaty later this week. Further debate, as I always say, is a matter for the usual channels.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch

My Lords, I wonder whether I can press the noble Baroness the Leader of the House on two questions put to her by my noble friend Lord Howell which I think, with respect, she has not quite answered yet. I appreciate that she has admitted the fact that the common agricultural policy was not discussed at Nice. But would she go so far as to agree that enlargement of the Community is actually impossible until reform of the common agricultural policy takes place? That does seem to be an important block on all these glorious achievements towards enlargement with which, of course, some of us do not agree. Many of us feel that the applicant nations, being the new democracies and the emerging economies of eastern Europe, really only need access to the market which is denied them and defence through NATO.

But be that as it may, my second question concerns the aspect of defence. I do not know whether the noble Baroness saw a leader in The Times—I believe that it appeared on Saturday—which quoted the very last paragraphs of the annex or protocol which is to be attached to the defence agreement, as I understand it. That made it absolutely clear that the defence force is planning independent EU control of military action. It ends by stating that it will communicate with NATO in a form appropriate at the time. Since this is a matter which seems to worry the American Secretary of State, Mr Cohen, and others in the American administration, can the noble Baroness be absolutely clear as to whether that annex is in place and will be signed up to, or what is the status of the defence initiative?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, the noble Lord says that I admitted that the CAP was not discussed at Nice. That was not due to some failure, as it were, of the Government or of anyone else to insist that it was tabled. It was not on the agenda and was never intended to be on it. As I said in my rather belated answer to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, it is something which the Government take seriously in the context of general reform of the European Union. I do not go as far as the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, in saying that enlargement without CAP reform is impossible. It is obviously an important element in that regard and, as I said earlier, it is a matter to which the Government continue to give important emphasis. However, as I say, it was not on the agenda at Nice.

On the question of defence, my noble friend Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, who is seated beside me, prompts me to say that many of the details will be relevant to the debate on this subject which is to take place on Thursday. When we talk about the Americans' concerns we must emphasise that Mr Cohen said that if co-operation and collaboration between NATO and a European rapid reaction force were badly carried out it would be of concern to the Americans. I am sure that no one, let alone my noble friend Lady Symons or her colleagues in the Ministry of Defence or, indeed, anyone in Europe or in the Pentagon, wishes it to be badly carried out. Therefore, as is so often the case, I do not share the noble Lord's apprehension.

Lord Harrison

My Lords, does my noble friend agree with me that the Promenade des Anglais in Nice is appropriately named given that the Government have walked all over the Euroscepticism of at least some of the flâneurs on the Benches opposite? Does she further agree that the universal support for that British initiative of a rapid reaction force nicely exemplifies the Government's positive approach of being in Europe but not running away from it?

Baroness Jay of Paddington

My Lords, looking at the clock, I am tempted to say yes and yes. I am not sure that I can respond to my noble friend's "franglais" or to his aphorisms. However, both seem to me to be correct.

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