HL Deb 12 April 2000 vol 612 cc186-8

2.46 p.m.

Lord Ashley of Stoke

asked Her Majesty's Government:

What has been the effect of the judgments in the cases of Regina v. Gloucestershire County Council and the Secretary of State for Health ex parte Barry and Regina v. Gloucestershire County Council and another ex parte Barry on social services for disabled people.

Lord Burlison

My Lords, the House of Lords judgment in the Gloucestershire case did not change the law, but confirmed the legal position to be that which the Department of Health has always believed to apply; namely, that authorities may take their resources into account in assessing the needs of a disabled person and deciding what services to arrange.

Lord Ashley of Stoke

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the significance of the judgment is that it allows local authorities to plead poverty when cutting or eliminating community care for disabled people? A recent report from the Royal Association for Disability & Rehabilitation confirmed that since the judgment there has been a significant deterioration in the service. It quoted the case of an 86 year-old woman suffering from Alzheimer's disease who was refused a bath or a shower for five years and was forced to have a strip-wash at the kitchen sink. It mentioned other severely disabled people who were pushed to the brink of despair and even suicide.

Regardless of what my noble friend said, is he aware that we want a change in the law, even that interpreted by the Law Lords? We want a law which enables local authorities to do their job without pleading poverty and which forces them to carry out their duty to provide such services for disabled people.

Lord Burlison

My Lords, I acknowledge my noble friend's involvement in this area and I appreciate his concerns. The Government do not believe that the Gloucestershire judgment should have led to changes in the practice of authorities as the House of Lords judgment confirmed what had long been the department's understanding of the law.

Following that judgment, we issued guidance which was used to help to safeguard disabled people against possible misunderstandings of it. That made it clear that the judgment did not give authorities a licence to take arbitrary or unreasonable decisions. It also made it clear that the authorities are still under a duty to arrange services for disabled persons where they consider it to be necessary to do so in order to meet a disabled person's need.

I am prepared to examine the specific cases that my noble friend outlined if he raises them with me outside the Chamber.

Lord Addington

My Lords, does the Minister agree that if the social services fail to meet the needs, they will have to be picked up by the Department of Health? Does he further agree that robbing Peter to pay Paul later is not what one would call "joined-up government"?

Lord Burlison

My Lords, there are many areas where the department feels that services should be examined. We realise that there are problems and failures within social services. The White Paper, Modernising Social Services, sets out our plans to overhaul the social services and to create services in which we can all have confidence. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that robbing Peter to pay Paul should not be the Government's approach on this issue.

Lord Morris of Manchester

My Lords, is it not a straight defiance of Parliament's intention in enacting Section 2 of my Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act to deny housebound elderly people even the right to a bath, now one of the most fundamental human rights that is well recognised in the Prison Service? And is it not totally repugnant to Ministers who are committed to social fairness to see an elderly housebound woman stating, My husband and I, both in our 80s, are taken to an old people's home twice a year for a bath. We asked the council to put in a bath but were told there is no money"?

Lord Burlison

My Lords, once again, I appreciate the involvement of my noble friend Lord Morris of Manchester in this issue and I acknowledge the past service that he has given to disabled people. It is sad that on an occasion such as this we need to raise issues of the type referred to by my noble friend. The Government are taking great steps to try to improve services: we are modernising social services and setting up a modernisation fund and Fair Access to care services. The Better care, higher standards national charter sets out a number of proposals to promote the independence of deaf and blind people. I also remind my noble friend that, although the Government are not complacent on this issue, there is a complaints procedure which can be used within local government. I am sure that like many other noble Lords my noble friend will want to ensure that the ombudsman is used, if necessary, in extreme cases in local government, to ensure that cases such as those mentioned are not treated unreasonably.

Earl Russell

My Lords, is the Minister aware that where local authorities face statutory obligations and compulsory spending limits they risk being "damned if they do and damned if they don't"? In the light of that, can the Minister tell us exactly what meaning he attaches to the Government's manifesto pledge to abolish crude and universal capping?

Lord Burlison

My Lords, I have already said that this judgment should not affect the relationship between a local authority and the disabled people who need to make use of the service. So far as the Government are concerned, we are absolutely and positively committed to improving social services benefits for disabled people. In order to achieve that, we have consulted the various elements involved, such as Sense, Deafblind UK, the RNIB and the RNID. We are keen that proper consultation should take place to ensure that local authorities are able to cater for, and government are in tune with, the needs of disabled, deaf and blind people in this country.