Begging (Hansard, 3 April 2000)

Baroness Sharpies
asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they have any plans to change the law regarding the sentencing of aggressive beggars.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton)
My Lords, a person convicted of begging in a public place may be sentenced to a fine of £1,000. Depending on the circumstances of the case, aggressive or intimidatory begging, or using children for begging, may lead to prosecution for offences carrying a custodial sentence. We have no plans currently to increase the sentences for offences relating to begging.

Baroness Sharpies
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Am I right in thinking that the police cannot take people's fingerprints when they are accused of begging? Assuming that the beggars are also asylum seekers, is the Home Secretary likely to implement his suggestion that they should be fast-tracked?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, we should not necessarily assume that all beggars are asylum seekers. Far from it. However, the noble Baroness is right in relation to fingerprinting. The Government are giving consideration to the issue of fast-tracking those asylum seekers who beg. We will no doubt be commenting on that in the near future.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is little justification for the hysteria whipped up by the tabloid press on the whole question of beggars and asylum seekers?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, my noble friend speaks with great wisdom on this matter. We must look at these issues carefully and proportionately and take appropriate and firm action if and when required. That is the sensible and humane approach.

§ Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the existing laws on begging are adequate and that additional sentencing provisions would not be helpful? Perhaps I may point out that begging is not restricted to asylum seekers; others beg too. Also, does the Minister consider that the voucher system meant for asylum seekers is inadequate? Will he undertake to review the system to ensure that those with children have adequate resources to buy nappies and toys? Moreover, will he ask the Home Secretary to use a balanced approach when publicly speaking on these matters?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, the Home Secretary already takes a balanced view of these matters. We feel that the procedures are right in relation to asylum seekers and we have made adequate provision for those who are destitute.
1079 In relation to begging generally, I looked carefully at the statistics and found that in the mid-1980s 500 people a year were convicted. In the last year for which we have figures, 2,025 people were convicted. It is also the case that the law was changed in regard to the sentencing of beggars in 1982 when the party opposite downgraded the offence. The term "incorrigible rogues" was removed from the provision, plus the ability to send such people to prison. The then government felt that the offence was so minor as to warrant only a fine. That was their attitude at the time; it seems that their attitude has now changed.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords—

§ Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
My Lords—

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, it is the turn of this side; but I shall give way to the noble Baroness.

§ Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord from the bottom of my heart. He displays his usual wisdom in these matters.
Can the Minister say whether, in cases of persistent begging with very young children who have unquestionably been drugged, it would be more practical, rather than giving money for nappies, to take those children into care?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, the noble Baroness has struck a strange note. Local authorities have more than adequate powers to take children into care if they believe that they are vulnerable. In the circumstances that the noble Baroness describes, children may well be vulnerable. Under Section 4 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 it is for prosecuting authorities to proceed against such beggars if they wish to do so. They may also consider instituting care proceedings.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, will my noble friend give an assurance that as a result of recent advice by the Magistrates' Association that penalties—that is, fines—should accord with people's ability to pay, we shall not find that aggressive beggars of any kind or of any nationality are sent away with a conditional discharge while people who park on double yellow lines are fined £500?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, it is obviously not for me to determine how sentences should be passed or what the nature of those sentences might be. However, I think it must be accepted wisdom that the penalties imposed fit the nature of the crime. That is what is enshrined in law. That is the general approach. I am sure that the courts will follow that general and sensible approach. I believe that the sentence passed on someone for begging will relate to the harm, the alarm and the level of distress caused by the begging. I have been alarmed in the past by this activity, as, I am 1080 sure, have other Members of your Lordships' House. There are other times, however, when begging activity is entirely innocent.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, does the Minister agree that beggars who are not in genuine need depend for their success on the belief of the public that there are beggars who are in genuine need? Does he agree that the best way to stop the public holding that belief is to ensure that no one falls through the safety net of social security?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, that is a wise observation. There are, of course, beggars and beggars. People beg for different reasons and they beg for different things.

Baroness Young
My Lords, one of the most disturbing forms of begging is begging with children, particularly with babies. It is not at all an uncommon occurrence. I suspect that we have all witnessed it. What instructions are given either to the police or to social services departments with regard to such beggars? It is a disturbing sight. Small children are taught to beg, usually by their mothers in the cases I have come across. That is extremely bad for the children, whatever may be said about the adults.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that that cannot be good for the children concerned. I believe that is common cause among us. Cases must be dealt with sensitively, as they are. Carefully considered advice has been given on this matter. As I have explained, begging is a prosecutable offence. People who are convicted can be fined. If Section 4 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 is applied, offenders can be imprisoned. No doubt, guidance must be followed in those circumstances. The overriding need is to protect the interests of the child. I believe that all Members of your Lordships' House would agree with that.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, what is the purpose of fining a beggar?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, that is a good question.

§ Lord Randall of St. Budeaux
My Lords, on the question of sentencing, does my noble friend agree that what is so offensive is the organised begging? There are some racketeers out there making large sums of money. Does my noble friend agree that if there is to be legislation on sentencing, first, we ought to get a firm grip on the extent to which we deal with organised begging?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, that is obviously an operational matter for the police. They need to judge the circumstances. Clearly, there is organised begging; occasionally organised criminal groups beg. However, in those circumstances I have little doubt that the police, with the active support of 1081 the Government and, no doubt, all parties, will take firm action. When I have drawn such instances to the attention of the police, they have mounted campaigns and offensives. It is for the courts to determine what kind of sentence is appropriate for the cases that come before them. However, as was mentioned earlier, how does one fine beggars?

§ Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, is the Minister confident that the new system of voucher support for asylum seekers, for which the Home Office is responsible, as from today, is sufficiently established and sufficiently robust to eliminate the need for asylum seekers to beg?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, the new national asylum seeker support scheme is robust. I am convinced that it will be effective. I have no doubt that the company that is contracted to operate it will do an extremely good job in distributing the vouchers. It must be our hope, and our wish that this situation does not lead to begging. As I have explained previously, my honourable friend in another place is considering that issue. We may well need to give it some further consideration. No doubt our action will be firm and swift.

§ Lord Hardy of Wath
My Lords, bearing in mind the reference to incorrigible rogues and my noble friend's reference to organised crime, I inform my noble friend that I received a begging letter from the Conservative Party this morning which I found unacceptable.