HL Deb 28 October 1999 vol 606 cc380-2

3.16 p.m.

Lord McNally

asked Her Majesty's Government:

What is their response to the latest published crime statistics.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton)

My Lords, these latest statistics represent the sixth consecutive year's fall in recorded crime figures. They indicate an underlying reduction in crime of 1.4 per cent and record that crimes of violence and domestic burglary are both down by 6 per cent. Welcome as these figures are, the Government refuse to be complacent and are absolutely clear that the real target is turning these gains into a sustained reduction in the long-term trends in crime.

Lord McNally

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as part of an anti-crime strategy, it is perfectly legitimate for a government to claim that greater mobility, higher technology and a willingness to privatise and outsource certain police functions mean that policing could be carried out with fewer policemen on the beat? Does he agree equally that it could be part of an anti-crime strategy for a government to commit themselves to more policemen on the beat? Would it not be dishonest to follow the first strategy and then claim credit for the second? In particular, can we expect to see the return of the 2,000 policemen who have disappeared from the streets of London during Sir Paul Condon's term of office? As regards that situation, Sir Paul said: The loss of 2,000 police officers puts pressure on every aspect of policing in the capital". Will we have more policemen on the beat?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance that the public place on having a friendly bobby on the beat. We all recognise the importance and value of that. As a government, we have played our part in ensuring that the police have resources. In the current year we are increasing police spending by £7 billion. We are providing a further £1.24 billion over the next three years; and we gave a commitment at this year's party conference to recruit an additional 5,000 police officers over and above the 11,000 recruits already planned. We are right to ensure that establishment levels are up to the mark. I should remind the House that it was not this Government who took away from the Home Secretary the right to set establishment levels. Your Lordships should support the expectations of the Government that chief constables will meet their establishment targets.

Viscount Bridgeman

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the Home Secretary's statement that 5,000 new police officers will be recruited does not in fact mean that there will be 5,000 additional police officers?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made it plain and clear that we intend to see that money and resources are available to recruit an additional 5,000 police officers over and above the 11,000 recruits already planned.

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the latest crime statistics show dramatic differences in detection rates between different police forces? Interestingly, the smaller forces such as Dyfed-Powys, Staffordshire, Cheshire and, dare I say, Durham, appear to come at the top. Given that smaller forces tend to be closer to the communities they serve, can the noble Lord take that into account when he is next pressured—as I am sure he is from time to time—to consider amalgamation of forces in order to achieve economies of scale? Bigger is not necessarily better.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with wisdom and experience on such matters, and who am I to differ with such wise words? The noble Lord makes an important and telling point. We must ensure that our police forces are well resourced and well supported so that they can do the job of ensuring peace and security on our streets and in our communities.

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am not sure that I understood the Minister's response to the last question but one. Is he saying categorically, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, that there will be 5,000 more policemen in service next year than there are this year?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, it is not necessarily a yes or no situation.

Noble Lords

Oh!

Lord Bassam of Brighton

The objective of the Government is to ensure that police forces around the country will be able to recruit an additional 5,000 police officers over and above the 11,000 recruits already planned.

The Countess of Mar

My Lords, the Minister has quoted overall statistics. Is it correct that the statistics for rural crime show a rapid increase over the past 12 months? Bearing in mind that very few villages now have their own policeman, can the Minister tell us what the Government are proposing for them?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, I should not like the House to feel that our villages are police-free zones. They are not. Over the past few decades the number of police officers serving in this country has generally increased. I remind noble Lords that the trends last year in terms of crime statistics show a 1.4 per cent fall in the number of crimes recorded by the police. Violent crime was down by 6 per cent, with a fall of 10 per cent—

Noble Lords

Answer the question.

Lord Bassam of Brighton

I understand the question perfectly. The figures I have given cover the whole country. I shall be pleased to ensure that the noble Countess receives a precise breakdown between urban and rural crime. If that is what she wishes to have, I shall ensure that it is provided.

Earl Russell

My Lords, do Her Majesty's Government know what percentage of those convicted of indictable offences have been disentitled to social security benefit and therefore are without legal means of support? If the Government do not know, will they try to find out?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, the noble Earl has asked a taxing question, and I am most grateful to him for it. I cannot give the answer he seeks today, but I shall find out whether such data are kept on record.

Lord Hardy of Wath

My Lords, will my noble friend accept my congratulations on the Government's initiatives? However, does he know that in some parts of the country the rise in crime has been enormous, including four offences at my own home over the past three months? Will he note particularly that in some areas elderly people living alone are at serious risk, which generates great fear? In one case known very well to me, a lady was so brutally assaulted that she spent more time in hospital—including a long period in intensive care—than the sentence given by the courts to the brutal thug who attacked her?

Lord Bassam of Brighton

My Lords, first, I express my sympathy to my noble friend as it appears that he has been the victim of a minor crime wave. I should like to place on record the Government's continuing support for the endeavours of our hardworking police officers in their efforts to reassure the public, in particular the elderly and frail who are thus most vulnerable to crime. We must all play our part in supporting our police forces and those in the criminal justice system to ensure that the job is done properly.