The Countryside: Policy (Hansard, 12 October 1999)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Lord Whitty)
My Lords, while recognising acute problems in some of our rural areas, the Government do not rigidly and artificially divide the people of this country into urban and rural. People move between town and country or live in one and work in another. Our policies are designed to benefit all our people wherever they live. Increased mobility, domestic tourism, the mass media, and our programmes to improve education will all promote a better understanding of society by people in both town and country.

§ Lord Patten
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, it does not clearly demonstrate that 204 the Government appreciate the growing gulf—and it is not merely a matter of field sports—between people who live in the town, the overwhelming majority, and folk who live in the countryside. Will the Minister recognise that many country people fear that the Government's plans for the countryside will turn it into a theme park for urban people, and will not help to preserve the rural way of life, agriculture and all historic countryside pursuits? If those pursuits were threatened in other parts of the world, I daresay that the Government would be up in arms in protest. What are the Government's plans for the one democratic institution to which some country people feel they can genuinely relate; namely, the parish council? Is it, or is it not, the Government's intention to abolish parish councils in England, Wales and Scotland?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, on the last point, not. The Government have been discussing rural governance. However, the implications in the media last week that we have plans for abolishing parish councils are complete nonsense. I should like to place that on record. As regards the first part of the noble Lord's question, I do not recognise a substantial amount of it. I understand that a certain amount of feeling has been generated and to an extent irresponsibly fanned up regarding this Government and the countryside. We have done more for rural England than any previous government in terms of rural transport and help for agriculture and rural businesses. Any objective assessment of what we have done for rural areas can lead only to the conclusion that we care just as much for our rural population as we do for the population in our towns.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, as regards help for rural businesses, will the noble Lord explain the Government's policy towards small and medium-sized abattoirs, dairy farmers, indeed any farmers, when all these people find their businesses collapsing left, right and centre—and not only the farmers directly but all those who support them?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, this Government and my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture have recognised that there are serious problems within the agricultural sector. Some were brought about by the BSE crisis and its knock-on effects, for which responsibility lies elsewhere than with the present administration. Some of them relate to the international situation. The Government have recognised the problems, particularly of small farmers, and have done much to provide additional income. We recognise that in rural areas, far beyond the numbers employed, agriculture is an important sector. We are seized of the problems and have done our best, in difficult international circumstances and following upon the effects of BSE, to try to support the agriculture industry. I wish that that were widely recognised in the House.

§ Lord Hardy of Wath
My Lords, I recognise that, as my noble friend suggested, the present Government provide a high priority for rural areas. Would he care 205 to remind the House that, in the 20 years before this Government were elected, we saw large numbers of village schools and village shops closed and many threats to village post offices? We saw the denudation of public transport in rural areas and a dramatic reduction in the number or proportion of rented houses in rural areas which compelled many poor people from the villages of Britain to move to the towns.

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, my noble friend effectively reminds the House of that position. I underline that this Government have taken steps to reverse the trends.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Darner
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a problem with the different government departments? Does he think that the creation of a rural ministry will mean that other departments, such as the DTI and the Treasury, will have a more substantial understanding of rural issues than has been evident through the past several years? Some of those failings were pointed out by the noble Countess, Lady Mar.

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, I believe that in the area of rural policy my department and the Ministry of Agriculture, with other departments, have established a better degree of joined-up government than has been the case in the past. As for the structure of government departments, I am advised that that is a matter for the Prime Minister.

§ Baroness Byford
My Lords, following the Minister's comment to the noble Countess, Lady Mar, perhaps I may agree with him that this Government have given extra help to farmers, for which they are grateful. However, it is a matter of publicising it. Of the £150 million recently allocated, only £1 million goes to farmers. The remaining £149 million goes in paying charges introduced by this Government, accompanied by all the other red tape and extra restrictions with which farmers have to comply.

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, I do not completely recognise the figures, but it is true that some of the extra help offsets charges which were in the pipeline. Nevertheless, £150 million of additional help has recently been given, particularly to beef and sheep farmers. I believe it is widely recognised within agriculture that that is a step in the right direction.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that, if a better understanding is to be fostered, it is assuredly not by a policy of overt-attrition to the interests of the countryside, not only the economic and agricultural interests but also the sporting interests?

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, the noble Lord is leading us into a whole new minefield. We are concerned about the whole range of interests of country people, their employment, quality of life, transport systems and the 206 prosperity of their businesses. I do not believe that the issue of field sports, for example, is central to the concerns of many country people. It is one on which a few people have over-excited views, but not one that defines the problems of the countryside. We believe that our policies will provide jobs, prosperity and a better infrastructure for what have often been neglected parts of our country.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, if the Government are unable to do much to prevent the gulf increasing between the urban and the rural sectors, can the Minister do something to make it decrease? Does he agree that one way of achieving that would be for the Government not to undertake the alteration of rural pursuits? I am not a participant in them, but any such alteration is likely to cause 16,000 people to become unemployed. Contrary to what the noble Lord said, those pursuits remain a substantial factor in the countryside.

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, I accept neither the figures nor the assertion. We were committed by our manifesto to a free vote on hunting with hounds. That will be pursued as parliamentary time permits. It is not a matter which the majority of people in the countryside see as central to their interests. I repeat that our concern is with jobs and prosperity in the countryside, not one particular small section.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, every word that the Minister has said so far has been entirely on agriculture, particularly BSE. That is understandable, but will he remember that those in horticulture are also having a rough time? They are often forgotten and do not share in any government goodies that may be thrown from the noble Lord's table.

§ Lord Whitty
My Lords, I accept that horticulture and many other rural industries face problems. I recognise the importance of the horticulture sector and hope that our measures and those of my colleagues to help small firms, particularly in rural areas, will address some of the problems.