HL Deb 24 November 1999 vol 607 cc445-8

2.44 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Drumadoon

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they have any plans to amend the Scotland Act 1998 to allow the House of Lords to participate in the passage of Scottish legislation.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no plans to amend the Scotland Act to allow the House of Lords to participate in the passage of Scottish legislation.

Lord Mackay of Drumadoon

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer. Does she understand that my Question arises out of recent comments made by her political colleague, the First Minister in Scotland, who mentioned the possibility that part of the legislative function of the Scottish Parliament might be shared with your Lordships' House? Does she agree that that unfortunate comment raised a distinct impression that the First Minister and his colleagues do not feel that the devolution settlement is working satisfactorily? Will she say to her colleagues in Scotland that they should welcome rather than criticise the very effective work that is being done by the cross-party committees in the Scottish Parliament?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

No, my Lords, I will do none of those things. Nor do I accept the premise on which the Question was based. I read the published text of the John Mackintosh memorial lecture, which is the speech referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Drumadoon. I did not rely only on the tabloid headlines. Having said that unicameral systems are always open to criticism, the First Minister made quite clear that in his personal view an effective committee system is the best option. He actually said: I believe an effective committee system is the best way of examining legislation and testing the Executive's actions".

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, is the Minister aware that when the Scotland Bill went through this House, it was understood that a unicameral parliament would take Bills in various stages, including pre-legislative scrutiny? Is she aware that on 8th September, in closing the loophole which made possible the imprisonment of Mr Noel Ruddle and in legislating in a matter which had quite a delicate bearing on the human rights of this individual, the Parliament passed the Bill in two days without pre-legislative scrutiny—very swiftly, much to the consternation of several Members of the Scots Parliament, including an experienced legislator, Mr Dennis Canavan?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, I am more than aware of all the arguments in this House over long, long hours during the passage of the Scotland Bill Among other things, they included the question of how a unicameral Parliament would cope. I know there are Members on the Benches opposite who are also only too familiar with that and with all the arguments. With regard to the second part of the noble Baroness's intervention, that is entirely a matter within the competence of the Scottish Parliament and I have no comment to make.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, far be it from me to interfere in matters north of the Border. The last time I did that, in the House of Commons, I was rather embarrassed, as a matter of fact. That was a long time ago. However, if unicameralism is respectable in Scotland and in a Scottish Parliament, why is it not respectable at Westminster, and why has the Royal Commission not been asked to consider unicameralism for the United Kingdom Parliament?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, the pros and cons of unicameral systems have been rehearsed in this House many times, not least during the passage of the Scotland Bill. I really do not believe that we should be reploughing that furrow now in Oral Questions. I should be delighted to do so but I do not believe the House has the time.

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, I know that the House always enjoys hearing from the noble Baroness and we know that the Government are, after all, masters of the soundbite. With her considerable parliamentary attainments, I am sure that it might be possible for the noble Baroness to favour us with a soundbite as to why Scotland and its Parliament are happy to have a single chamber and this Parliament is not.

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, I do not indulge in soundbites.

Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I do not read tabloids? I take my text today from the Scotsman, which, as the noble Baroness rightly said, reported Mr Donald Dewar as saying: Unicameral government—the absence of a revising chamber—will always be open to criticism". But will the noble Baroness cast her eye down to the next paragraph? Mr Dewar went on: Some will argue that reform of the House of Lords gives an opportunity to bind Scotland to the UK by giving the second chamber the power to review Scottish legislation. It could be done by using the peers' equivalent of the Scottish grand committee". That was done in the light of Mr Dewar's clear dissatisfaction with the way in which the pre-legislative committees have worked. Was the First Minister simply off message that day when he delivered the lecture?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, if the noble Lord is going in for the business of selective quotations, he could have continued himself down that paragraph where the position is made very clear. Mr Dewar stated: While some would no doubt put that case"— the case the noble Lord is making— one of the reasons I have concentrated on the committee system"— this was in the middle of a very long lecture— is that I believe that an effective committee system is the best way of examining legislation and testing the Executive's actions".

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say with what logic one can have a single chamber government for Scotland and a bicameral government for England when they are both part of the United Kingdom?

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale

My Lords, I really do wish that noble Lords who are raising this question now would take the time to read Hansard if they did not take the time to come into the Chamber for the proceedings on the Scotland Bill when all these arguments were put forward. We were discussing a parliament for Scotland in a new system and we all decided that the best system in that context was a unicameral parliament. It was decided then after long discussions. Any noble Lord who wishes can find all of those lengthy discussions in Hansard.