Chechnya (Hansard, 22 November 1999)

§ Baroness Blatch
asked Her Majesty's Government:
What action they have taken or intend to take to restrain Russian violence against civilians in Chechnya.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary raised our concerns with Foreign Minister Ivanov at the summit of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe in Istanbul on 18th November, urging that Russia should reach a negotiated political settlement to the conflict. The Prime Minister has also written to Prime Minister Putin.
The European Union General Affairs Council on 15th November condemned all disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force and urged the Russian Government to observe their commitments under international humanitarian law.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer. In relation to the Government's ethical 175 foreign policy, first, will she tell the House what is the distinction between Kosovo and Chechnya? Secondly, will the Minister say what information the Government have, and what view they take, about the role of Islamic fundamentalists throughout the Caucasian region?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, in relation to the first part of the noble Baroness's question, there is no comparison between what happened in Kosovo and the situation now in Chechnya. Unlike in Kosovo, we have no evidence of a deliberate Russian policy of ethnic cleansing. Russia has a genuine need to respond to kidnapping, banditry and the militants' invasion in September of neighbouring Dagestan. Our concern is that this response should respect international humanitarian law. Therefore, the distinction between the two is quite stark.
As far as concerns our policy, we have made it absolutely clear that in relation to each of these regions we shall do all in our power to ensure that humanitarian matters are fully respected.

§ Viscount Waverley
My Lords, why do the Government not recognise the Chechens' right to self-determination but acknowledge that right for the Falklanders?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, your Lordships will know that since the end of the war in 1996, Chechnya has been internationally acknowledged as being part of the Russian Federation and remains so. Therefore it is of the utmost importance that the Chechens and Russians resolve this issue between them. At the moment, internationally, Chechnya remains part of the Russian Federation.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I and a number of other people are quite amazed by her Answer to the original Question? Is it not a fact that Kosovo is part of the Yugoslavian federation and that Yugoslavia had every right to put down what it termed to be a rebellion in that country? Further, is it not quite clear that the levels of attacks, injuries and deaths were very much overstated, as is now becoming clear from the United Nations' investigation because far from finding that hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, it has as yet found fewer than 2,500?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I shall not take issue with my noble friend about figures, which we can discuss later. It is quite clear that every single effort was made in the Kosovo position to try to ameliorate the situation; to try to get Milosevic to the table; and to try to broker some form of proper response. Milosevic deliberately refused. Your Lordships will know that a number of people have said that we waited far too long before responding. We had to have a balanced response. We are starting the process. It is only when a negotiated settlement shows 176 no realistic prospect of success that other alternatives must be sought. That position has not been arrived at as far as concerns Russia and the Chechens. It would be quite wrong for us to go down a road from which we would find it difficult to come back.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to talks held by the Foreign Office Minister in the margins of the Istanbul Summit. What was the point of merely reaffirming in the Charter for Europe the commitment of OSCE-participating states to the code of conduct on politico-military aspects of security and the Copenhagen document of 1990, both of which have been flagrantly and persistently violated, not only by Russia but also by the host nation, Turkey? Does she not believe that it is time that the OSCE found a means of ensuring that participating states comply with the commitments to which they have signed?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, of course it is of the utmost importance that we obtain compliance in relation to those issues. However, I cannot emphasise enough the importance of discussion in obtaining confirmation of the parameters. The OCSE Charter for European Security sets the basis for future security co-operation in Europe. It improves the OSCE's operational capabilities, particularly in response to crises. It reaffirms the legitimate interest of all participating states in national implementation of OSCE commitments, particularly with regard to human rights and preserving the security and stability of all OSCE states. It has adapted the platform for co-operative security, which establishes a non-hierarchical basis for co-operation among the various international organisations operating within OSCE areas. Those important issues cannot be sidelined. The Government believe that it is important to continue those conversations; they do have value.

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I work with the organisation Medical Emergency Relief International, which has worked in Chechnya and that we are deeply concerned about the humanitarian problems and suffering there? Does she agree that the fundamentalist Islamist terrorists who began the war in Chechnya also initiated the conflict in Dagestan and have declared their intention to extend it to other peaceable Islamic nations, as well as to Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh? Therefore, does she agree that the Islamists need to be restrained at least as much as the Russians?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I agree that the whole situation demands restraint. The noble Baroness is right to say that the situation became particularly acute in August when the militants entered Dagestan very much against the hopes of the people of that country. Their hopes and aspirations in relation to their own security were dashed. The Russian response to that incursion was obviously understandable. This is a difficult situation which requires balance and we need to respond in a measured 177 and co-operative way. We do not need an hysterical response which leads us down a path from which we cannot turn back

§ Lord Ahmed
My Lords, is the Minister aware that according to the Economist the war in Chechnya is costing the Russian Government 4 billion roubles per month, which is equivalent to £100 million per month? Can my noble friend tell the House how much of that comes from IMF funds and whether the Government will support the suspension of aid and IMF funds to the Russian Government?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, IMF funds are currently being used in terms of rollover. No IMF funds are being expended in relation to the current difficulties in this area. Therefore, there is a separation between the two.

§ Lord Burnham
My Lords, I am well aware that the matter is to be raised later this week, but can the noble Baroness tell the House to what extent all that she has had to say today relates to the Government's ethical foreign policy?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, the Government have made it plain that in relation to their foreign policy they will do all in their power to make sure that humanitarian interests internationally are upheld. We respond in a way that meets the precise needs of the circumstance. If your Lordships were to examine the way in which Her Majesty's Government have responded, I hope that you would agree that we have done so in a balanced way, addressing the issues that are presented in each particular country, and encouraging all of those participants to respond in a proportionate and humanitarian way. This Government make no apology for their foreign policy; it is balanced; it is sure and, if I may respectfully say so, it is right.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether there is any substance in the suggestion made about a fortnight ago by the respected journalist, Anne Applebaum, to the effect that it was the Russian secret service—the successor to the old KGB—which had murdered the four British telephone engineers in Chechnya in order to discredit the Chechen cause?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I can give no answer to that question. We have no information to indicate that the noble Lord's supposition in relation to that matter is right. There is no indication whatever that that is so.