§ The Commons disagreed to this amendment for the following reason—
§ 13A Because it is not appropriate to make statutory provision for an Appointments Commission.
§ Baroness Jay of PaddingtonMy Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 13 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason numbered 13A.
§ The Chairman of CommitteesMy Lords, the Question is that—
§ The Chairman of CommitteesMy Lords, the Motion having been moved, I must put the Question. The noble Earl will forgive me, I am sure.
1461 The Question is, that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 13 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason numbered 13A.
Moved, That the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 13 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason numbered 13A.—(Baroness Jay of Paddington.)
The Earl of ErrollMy Lords, I rise to speak because of the confusion that has just arisen. As a Cross-Bencher, I am fed up with Front Bench on either side steam-rollering matters. My noble friend on the Cross Benches attempted to speak to Lords Amendment No. 4. Mistakenly, he spoke to Lords Amendment No. 2. The real challenge then came, and when the Motion on Lords Amendment No. 4 was moved, we were steam-rollered. Was there a chance to leap up and speak? No. I am afraid the problem is that the Government are trying to railroad matters through and are not observing the proper procedures.
Fortunately, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, spoke up on our behalf; whether noble Lords agree with his remarks is another matter. If we are to move into a new era, with a new Chamber and new House, we might at least have some independence of thought and mind and the Government should not railroad matters through—
§ Baroness Jay of PaddingtonMy Lords—
The Earl of ErrollMy Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House guillotined me on Third Reading. It has normally been a courtesy in this House, if a Peer had managed to get a sentence out, to stand up and say, "Perhaps we should allow the noble Lord to finish". Instead, the Question was called. So I have now learnt the danger—since the noble Lord, Lord Marsh, advised me that I should not give way in future. We seem to have new customs coming into the House. I shall now shut up and sit down. I shall merely say: for goodness' sake, let us not forget that we were a courteous House. We used to listen to people. Five minutes now is not going to change history.
On the previous Motion, I should have said that the only reason the Commons had to fear that amendment was the possible intention at the back of someone's mind that they might want to prolong the life of Parliament. Otherwise, why did they fear the proposal? There are many other things like that which should be said in our last moments before the only independent voice disappears. With that, I shall sit down.
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighMy Lords, I apologise to the whole House for a slight misunderstanding—
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighMy Lords, I want to speak as well. This is not the first that this has happened.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I think I am entitled to reply. The two are not alternatives.
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighThey are.
§ 4.15 p.m.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I am entitled to observe that when I moved the previous Motion, I sat down to await any contributions which might or might not have come. I did nothing discourteous to any Member of this House. There was quite a substantial pause. The Question was then put and assented to. There was no question of anyone being shut out at that stage.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, the Question was put and, I repeat, assented to. I think I am entitled, as always, to look for the courteous support of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. He saw me waiting; no one intervened; and the Question was put and determined.
Lord StrathclydeMy Lords, I must bear some of the responsibility for the confusion that has arisen. By making the few brief remarks that I had intended to make to the Motion on Lords Amendment No 4, to the Motion on Lords Amendment No. 2, I think that I inadvertently misled the House.
However, having heard the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, I wonder whether it is now in order, in regard to this amendment, to hear the noble Lord, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh, or whether that is out of order. The noble Lord, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh, has been trying to enter the debate for a large part of the afternoon. This is the last time that he will be present in this House as he is one of the excluded Peers. I look to the Government Front Bench to make a decision which I believe will be a fair one and will receive the support of the House.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, that is a very reasonable approach. I think the sense is that your Lordships want to hear the noble Lord, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighMy Lords, I should like to thank those on the Government Front Bench and the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.
1463 I am wholeheartedly in favour of the amendment as a postscript to Clause 2, especially having read the reason given by Her Majesty's Government for disagreeing to our Amendment No. 4; namely,
Because it is unnecessary to protect further the position of the Septennial Act 1715".The period specified in that Act was shortened to five years in Section '7 of the 1911 Parliament Act. But just as the Triennial Parliament Act 1693 was altered and changed in 1715, and that 18th century Act altered in 1911, what is to prevent this Government, or any ensuing elected government, altering Section 7 of the Parliament Act 1911? Control of the appointments of Peers to this Chamber, and a government with a majority of 50 or 100 will have the power to change the life of a Parliament from five to seven years, from five to 10 years, or to whenever.It is our right and our responsibility to protect the electorate. We should insist on the original Amendment No. 4 which another place considered negatively last night, as well as the new amendment proposed to follow Clause 2. I support the amendment.
Earl FerrersMy Lords, before the noble and learned Lord rises, we have bowled along rather briskly and he will gratifyingly find that we shot over Amendment No. 4 fairly quickly. We now come to Amendment No. 13 which is in the Long Title.
I wish to ask the noble and learned Lord why the Government have not chosen to insert the matter of the appointments commission on which they have given an undertaking. Why do they not wish to find it in the Bill? Why is it so bad, if the proposed amendment, which has gone, was put down in order to prevent some government of a future date—not the present one—importing a lot of life Peers in order to prolong the life of Parliament? As I understand it, the idea was that that should not happen. I cannot understand why the Government have refused it.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, there is a little confusion in the noble Earl's mind. At the moment, so far as I am aware, we are dealing with Amendment No. 4.
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I say this with trepidation, but I think there is confusion in the noble and learned Lord's mind. I believe we are dealing with Amendment No. 13.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, if the noble Earl is right—-and he invariably is, mast of the time—I always agree with him. He is living testimony to that; in fact, we are having lunch together next week.
Earl FerrersMy Lords, the week after. The noble and learned Lord has misdirected his mind again. He will have to look not only at his brief but also at his diary.
§ Lord Williams of MostynMy Lords, I believe that I need leave to make a personal statement of apology for 1464 misleading the House. As to the questions which the noble Earl put on the appointments commission, I believe that the Leader of the House dealt with the matter as fully as the House could reasonably expect and certainly to an extent where there is nothing that I could usefully add.
§ The Chairman of CommitteesMy Lords, I know that your Lordships will not take this as an observation from the Woolsack, but perhaps it is rather appropriate that this happens to be Amendment No. 13.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.