Nuclear Warheads (Hansard, 1 November 1999)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
My Lords, the Government continue to press for early progress towards further reductions in nuclear weapons. We hope for early ratification by Russia of START II and a successful outcome to discussions between the United States and Russia on a possible START III treaty. The Government announced significant reductions in Britain's own nuclear deterrent in last year's Strategic Defence Review.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, bearing in mind that a few hundred of these awful weapons would be more than sufficient to devastate the planet, it is profoundly shocking that this huge stockpile should have been with us for so long and there is little prospect of diminishing it? Does she believe that it is time that a new initiative comes out of 563 the White House—there has not been one for a long time—to reduce this stockpile which is of no possible use to anyone but is a source of immense hazard?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that it is shocking that there are so many of these weapons. Noble Lords will be aware that Her Majesty's Government have been clear in their commitment to nuclear disarmament. In last year's Strategic Defence Review we reduced our capability significantly. We have also committed ourselves, and led the world in terms of transparency, to ensuring that this matter is addressed with vigour. We continue to ask all our partners to join us in this endeavour.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, is to be congratulated on raising this important subject? Does she also agree that the matter should not be left as it is now but that public knowledge of the danger in which we live should be increased to the point where the danger can be seriously reduced before a disaster does the alarming for us? Is it not better to take firm action now and for all countries to do the same so that the disaster that most of us fear may happen does not take place?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are already taking firm action. We have a clear internationally agreed way forward towards nuclear disarmament. The next steps are further major reductions in the arsenals of the two major nuclear powers, the entry into force of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty and the negotiation of a fissile material cut-off treaty. We continue to press for early progress in all these areas despite the difficulties that are well known to your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can my noble friend give precise figures for other countries within NATO? For example, can she say what the position is in France and Germany at the present time?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I do not have the precise figures but I can write to the noble Lord in relation to them. We have round figures but not precise ones.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, does the Minister accept that one of the greatest problems is that there is a large stockpile of these weapons in the former Soviet Union, not just in Russia but also the Ukraine and elsewhere, in deteriorating condition, with lousy security implications? Does the noble Baroness also accept that the United States has done much more to assist in the disposal of that stockpile than the United Kingdom or our West European allies? Will the Government consider whether we and our European Union allies should be doing more?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I agree that the United States has done a lot to assist Russia, but 564 I do not accept that Her Majesty's Government have not played an equal part. We have been vigorous in this area. We have supported all our allies, particularly our American friends, in this endeavour and shall continue to do so.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, regarding the possession of nuclear weapons, what is the view of the noble Baroness of the recent judgment of Greenock sheriff court?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, we have not yet had the judgment given by the sheriff court; and we await an opportunity to read it in detail. But we are confident that there is no conflict between the International Court of Justice's advisory opinion and the Government's policy of minimum deterrence. When we have had an opportunity to study the formal findings of the sheriff court, we shall be able to take a more informed view.

§ Lord Archer of Sandwell
My Lords, given that the nuclear non-proliferation treaty is scheduled for review in the fairly near future, does the Minister agree that many of the non-nuclear powers are troubled at the absence of much sign from the nuclear powers that they want to make a move in that direction? Would it not be a major contribution to confidence-building if NATO were to make a declaration of no first use?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I under-stand the noble and learned Lord's sentiment and his anxiety. It is a difficult issue. However, we have made it clear, nationally and in NATO, that the circumstances in which any use of nuclear weapons might have to be contemplated are now extremely remote.
Nevertheless, NATO continues to reserve the right of limited first use of nuclear weapons in extreme circumstances of self-defence to persuade an aggressor to desist if no other means are available. It is clear that there is no prospect of consensus among the allies on a move to a policy of no first use.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, does the Minister agree that we should bring home to our friends in the United States the tremendous damage done to the cause of arms control by the recent decision on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty? Does my noble friend agree that in his forthright leadership, the President of the United States speaks more convincingly for the people of the United States? Does she agree that if we are to make progress on this front, it is essential to bring home to our friends in America that it is while they have ascendancy that they have a vested interest for their own future in building up convincing international policies and agreements?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, we have made clear to the Americans our grave disappointment with the US Senate vote. But, as the noble Lord says, that vote does not mean the end of the treaty. We have welcomed the US Administration's 565 expression of continuing support for the treaty. We shall continue to work with them and other key countries to bring the treaty into force as soon as possible.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, while discussing American attitudes, will the Minister accept that although the Senate's refusal to counsel assent at this stage to the ratification of the total test ban treaty may be understandable, it is difficult to understand the total inactivity of the President of the United States with regard to the stockpile during his term of office?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. We are extremely disappointed that the Americans have taken the view that they have. It would have been preferable if they could have led by example to encourage others to join us in what is a very important endeavour. We have an indication that the American Administration are seeking to address the issue.