Lords Sitting of 31 March 1999

Preamble
The House met at half two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELOR on the woolsack
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop Of Bradford.

Genetically Modified Food: UN Biosafety Protocol
Baroness Wilcox Baroness Wilcox asked Her Majesty's Government:
What view they advocated during the United Nations Biosafety Protocol negotiations in Colombia with regard to trade in genetically modified food.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Lord Whitty): My Lords, the UK, as part of the European Union, wanted a protocol covering the transboundary movement of all living modified organisms that may have an adverse effect on the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity, taking human health into account. The EU pressed for reference to the precautionary principle; advanced informed agreement procedures for LMOs intended for intentional introduction into the environment, including those for use as food, feed or for processing; and for documentation to specify that a shipment contains LMOs. We supported an enabling provision for international rules on liability and redress. We opposed provisions that would subordinate the protocol to other international agreements. The aim is a protocol securing environmental safety which will not hamper trade.
Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that clear Answer to my very simple Question. Perhaps it would be only fair if I could expand a little to explain the reasons for my Question. I am concerned because the talks on the biosafety protocol in Cartagena broke down. Does the Minister agree that that was a great disappointment because we had an opportunity there to introduce an international protocol to ensure that GM foods are segregated at the country of source? Does the Minister agree that this is a difficult and confusing area fill- consumers and that it would help if manufacturers labelled products to make clear their contents? Can the Minister tell me the Government's next move?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, it was a fairly long Answer, and that was a fairly long supplementary question. The EU and the UK in particular were concerned that an agreement was not reached. The EU tried hard to reach an agreement, but it proved impossible to reconcile the views of the developing countries and of the Miami Group of producer countries. The aim was not so much to ensure segregation at source as to ensure that where such products cross boundaries it would be possible to provide sufficient information to enable importing countries to take their own decisions. That remains our
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aim. We believe that a large degree of consensus was reached. We shall return to the fray with our European partners.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, on a more local level, my local trading standards department in Worcestershire recently tested 24 samples of animal and human food for soya and maize GMs and about five of them contained genetically modified products. Is the Minister aware that it turned out that the manufacturers of three of the samples were not aware that the products that they had used had been genetically modified? Does not that indicate the urgent need for proper labelling at source so that manufacturers and consumers can know whether food has been genetically modified, and so that the manufacturers can tell the truth?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the United Kingdom is very much in favour of labelling to ensure that consumers know which foods are genetically modified. Only three forms of genetically modified food are available for human consumption in Europe. As the noble Countess indicates, the problem is that if such foods originate in the United States, genetically modified maize or soya may be mixed with non-genetically modified products and may not always be appropriately labelled. We want to improve labelling through both EU regulations and our own practice. However, the Question was about the protocol and whether countries have the ability, on the basis of reasonable information, to make decisions on whether or not to allow such imports. The protocol would not have covered labelling as such.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, can my noble friend summarise the line taken by the United States in those negotiations? Does there remain a risk that the United States will act unilaterally to enforce its 'will on countries which want to adopt proper safety precautions, including labelling?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the United States in this context was acting with other agricultural exporting countries—Canada, Australia, Argentina, Uruguay and Chile, what is known as the Miami Group. There was no agreement and therefore, until we reach agreement, there is the possibility that different groups involved in those negotiations will adopt different practices. However, that has no implication for EU or UK rules because those rules already make stringent requirements on the availability and the information required for the import of such products.
The Earl of Clanwilliam: My Lords, is the Minister aware that all South American GM crops are grown from Monsanto and Du Pont seeds? Does the Minister therefore agree that Monsanto and Du Pont should be approached by the British Government to ensure that they do not penetrate the marketing areas of South America?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the British Government made it clear to all producers and potential producers that they will not be allowed commercially to develop

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crops or sell food without obeying the UK and EU regulations and that is the case for Monsanto and any other potential producer.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, will the noble Lord tell the House whether the Government fear the short—term effects of genetically modified grain—as it now is—or whether they fear the long-term effects which we may see in the environment?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, there are no proven negative effects of GM food. Those foods that are allowable within the UK and Europe have been subject to rigorous food testing. The food dimension of those that have been allowed appear to be safe. Our concern is the question of whether genetically modified crops will affect other crops and biodiversity in general. That is why we insist, first, on small-scale trials and subsequently on controlled, farm-scale trials to assess the biodiversity effects. We will await the results of that before we take it further.
Lord Elton: My Lords, does it occur to the Government that in the regrettable circumstance that it is impossible to bring the banana dispute to a proper conclusion, it might be worth treating genetically modified imports in the same way as the United States is treating cashmere exports?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, it would not be appropriate for me in this House to escalate what is in danger of becoming a serious trade war. I hope that both on the banana front and on other WTO-related matters, agreement can be reached between the EU and the United States. I do not wish to inflame that situation.

Early Years Learning
2.44 p.m.
Lord Northbourne Lord Northbourne asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will ensure that the early years plans of all local authorities make provision to support and fund early years provision by the voluntary sector where such provision is already in existence and is of satisfactory quality.
The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Baroness Blackstone): My Lords, the Government have made it clear that the voluntary sector should be engaged in drawing up the early years development and childcare plans and should share in providing early education places. The Government announced a review to examine how pre-schools and playgroups can best contribute to the expansion of nursery education and childcare.
Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, and also for the £500,000 which the Government made available on 17th March to pre-school groups. Does the noble Baroness agree that
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the problems of illiteracy and alienation in our schools will not be solved until we can be sure that most children coming into school at four or five years of age have the self-confidence and social skills to enjoy school and to succeed? Does she agree also that most children from disadvantaged backgrounds and with special educational needs are at present being provided for by local authorities in reception classes, many of which are big and none of which is controlled by the regulations in relation to staff/pupil ratios or as to the suitability of accommodation? How soon will the Government introduce regulations to ensure that all local authorities are subject to the same standards of staff/pupil ratios and accommodation as are presently—quite rightly—applied to pre-schools and nursery schools?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, says about a good start to schooling if we are to avoid problems later. There can be no question but that what happens to three, four and five year-olds can be a positive experience but it can also be less than a positive experience, which may have lasting effects. In relation to the specific questions relating to reception classes, the Government consider that the quality of learning opportunities, on the whole, is good. It is important that if young children are admitted early to reception classes, their specific needs are taken into account. So the Government are looking into issues of further support for teachers, including teaching assistants and nursery nurses. Many reception classes already have that kind of support. Moreover, the Government are also encouraging local authorities to make sure that there is deferred entry to reception classes for those parents who prefer their children to start later.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon: My Lords, will the Minister accept that the early years period in a child's life is probably the most significant of all periods in the development of aptitude skills which make for good learning in later life? Does she agree also that resources placed into that sector would make more difference than any other in educational attainment?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I agree with the right reverend Prelate. It is for that reason that the Government have already taken steps to expand the provision of pre-school education. The Government have made a firm commitment to ensuring that every child aged four has a place. In addition, the Government are committed to expanding provision for three year-olds so that by 2002 two-thirds of all three year-olds will have a place either in a maintained nursery class or in the voluntary or private sector.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, is the Minister aware of the impact that the minimum wage is having on deeply rural communities where some playgroups simply cannot cope with the new designation of their workers who have hitherto been paid on a sessional, and almost honorarial, basis? It means now that such facilities will be lost to those communities.
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, the Government are absolutely aware of the impact of the national

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minimum wage which we regard as an extremely important development in relation to adequate and fair pay for all employees. As to pre-school provision, the further £500,000 that the Government are making available over the next year will support playgroups experiencing financial problems and facing potential difficulty because they now have to pay an adequate hourly rate to those who work in the groups.
Lord Tope: My Lords, can the Minister explain the huge discrepancy between the figures of the Preschool Learning Alliance which says that 1,500 groups have closed since 1997 and her own department's figures which suggest that the correct figure is 100? Whatever the correct figure may be, does the Minister agree that voluntary playgroups are now under very serious pressure? Further, can she say when she expects the review that she has just mentioned to report?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, there is a discrepancy between the figures produced by the alliance and those which have been collected by the Government. I suspect that some of the discrepancy is explained by different definitions. I believe that the figures of the preschool alliance cover a much wider range of provision than those which apply to the government figures. It is also the case that we get closures in this area followed by re-opening of a slightly different kind of prevision in the same locality. So we need to take into account the fact that there have been substantial numbers of new playgroups as well as some closures. Many closures derive from the previous government's very damaging voucher scheme which led to unnecessary competition between the sectors. This Government are keen to ensure that there should be co-operation. I cannot give a precise date as to when the review will be completed, but I shall let the noble Lord know when it is close to that time.

Mobile Telephones On Aircraft
2.52 p.m.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest in that I am president of the Air Safety Group.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what information is available relating to the danger of mobile telephones being used on board passenger aircraft in flight; and whether they will take any action to increase the amount of such information which is available.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the use of mobile phones on board an aircraft may cause interference with the aircraft's systems and is prohibited under the Air Navigation (No. 2) Order 1995. It is the responsibility of each airline to ensure that its passengers are aware of, and comply with, this requirement. Consequently, as
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part of the safety briefing on UK aircraft, passengers are instructed to switch off their mobile phones for the duration of the flight.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, has he any evidence concerning the recent air accident where it was alleged that use of mobile phones by passengers interfered with air crew and ground communication? If so, is any such evidence available as yet?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, there is no evidence of an accident actually having been caused. However, the CAA has reports of six incidents in the past 10 years, five of them occurring during last year, where the use of mobile phones is suspected of having interfered with aircraft equipment.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a current television advertisement featuring a lady in her home telephoning her husband who is in an aeroplane? The lady is shown talking to him, the telephone is then passed to their dog who barks at the phone and the husband smiles happily. Nevertheless, the husband is still in the aeroplane and the dog is still at home.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am not aware of that particular advertisement. However, there are a number of other advertisements where I believe that the performers in them are probably breaking the law in one way or another. Nevertheless, I am glad that the noble Baroness has drawn this particular advertisement to my attention.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, can the Minister say whether any similar dangers are involved in the use of mobile phones on board trains and indeed on the Underground railway system? Are there not warnings to discourage the use of mobile phones on trains? If there are not, perhaps the Minister can invent some.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the main danger identified thus far in terms of rail transport is that of being lynched by the other passengers. As the noble Lord will know, a number of operators have introduced quiet carriages mainly for that effect. However, there is no indication that such phones interfere with the actual mechanics of the train.
Lord Rotherwick: My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the CAA is carrying out any trials to detect mobile phones that are inadvertently left on and which may have caused these six incidents, or whatever? Further, can he tell us what systems are being affected by the use of such phones?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, it is difficult to identify precisely which systems because in the confined space of an aircraft all of the avionics could be affected. Therefore, a number of systems could potentially be affected. The interference which is suspected of actually having occurred relates to the communications system.

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As far as I am aware, no special equipment is available for detecting whether such equipment is switched on within an aircraft.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, would it be possible for the Minister to give the House further information about allegations in newspaper reports that it is even dangerous to use mobile phones on terra firma?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, when the noble Baroness said "terra firma" I thought she was referring to some obscure airline—
Noble Lords: Oh!
Lord Whitty: However, the Government are obtaining advice from the National Radiological Protection Board as regards the risk to human health from radiation, and that includes the use of mobile phones because they are low-power microwave transmitters. There is some alleged concern in that area. Although we have no reason to suppose that there is a serious problem, this is a new situation which involves large numbers of people. My colleagues in the Department of Health are supporting various research studies into the matter both in this country and internationally.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House whether Her Majesty's Government have been in a position to advise air companies as to cheap and effective screening methods which obviate the necessity for these people being put to inconvenience?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am not sure of the available technology in this area. However, if my advisers can identify such information, I will let the noble Lord know.
Lord Monkswell: My Lords, further to the question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, can my noble friend the Minister say which agency would be responsible for ensuring that advertisements do not promote illegal activity?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I understand that the Advertising Standards Authority would be the appropriate body. My earlier comment was made in my other capacity as road safety Minister. It seems that a fair number of motor manufacturers show cars exceeding the speed limit by substantial amounts. I think that the Advertising Standards Authority has quite flexible rules in this respect. However, it would be that body because it is required to ensure that such advertising is not illegal.

Special Advisers: Business Appointments
2.59 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy Lord Campbell of Croy asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether a standard interval of time is required for special advisers between departure from a position in government service and taking up a business appointment.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord Falconer of Thoroton): No, my Lords. The business appointment rules apply to special advisers in the same way as they do to other civil servants. The imposition of a waiting period or any other condition depends on the circumstances of each individual case.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his reply. However, on departure from their jobs working for Ministers, are special advisers subject to the same rules and periods of quarantine as those which apply to senior civil servants, advice being sought in the individual cases from the Business Appointments Committee of which I was a member for its first eight years?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the answer is that they are subject to the same rules. That arose as a result of recommendations made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nolan—who I am happy to see is present—which were accepted by the Government and also by the previous government. However, in effect, they only began to bite in substance after this Government came to power because there were existing contracts. There is one material difference; namely, when a special adviser has to make an application, which is considered on a case-by-case basis, the ultimate decision-maker will not be the Minister but the permanent head of the department in which the special adviser worked. That is a sensible and fair safeguard. It means that special advisers are subject to consideration that is just as rigorous as that which applies to senior civil servants, but at the same time they do not have that security of employment.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, will the Minister remind all special advisers that they must cease political activity as from next week if their Ministers are involved in the Scottish and Welsh elections?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am quite sure that all special advisers know the limits on their legitimate activity.
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord confirm that there are three special advisers attached to the Scottish Office? What will happen to them after the creation of the Scottish Parliament? Will they be able to move seamlessly with

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their existing contracts from working for Ministers in the Scottish Office to working for Ministers in the Scottish executive?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, as regards the period of time during the election, it is for special advisers to comply with the provisions that the noble Lord, Lord Monro, mentioned. As regards the period subsequent to that, if a person has continued to be a special adviser, for example to the Secretary of State for Scotland, if that Minister then becomes the First Minister, it will be possible for the special adviser to continue as special adviser to that person in that capacity. However, he or she must remember at all times that special advisers are civil servants and that what we want is a unified Civil Service.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, is the press report correct that there are now as many as 69 special advisers working for Ministers and they seem to have become a new species which is not in danger of extinction?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I think that figure is about right. 1 am glad to say that they are not in danger of extinction. Before this Government came to power it was said that we wanted strong political leadership and special advisers play a part in that. The committee of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Slynn, considered the role of special advisers and was perfectly content that there was no abuse of the system.
Lord Renton: My Lords, so that we can all understand our language as well as possible, can the noble and learned Lord say when is an adviser not a special adviser?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, a special adviser is a species of adviser recognised by the Civil Service and given a contract—a copy of which has been placed in the Library—which permits a special adviser to be selected in a way other than under the normal Civil Service rules. As regards advisers, it is open to Ministers to take advice from whomsoever they wish.
Lord Chesham: My Lords, as we are talking about standard intervals of time, will the noble and learned Lord care to comment on a Question which I tabled for Written Answer dated 13th January, to which I have not received any response?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the noble Lord certainly has me where he wants me, as it were. I shall look into that matter.
Lord Swinfen: My Lords, as special advisers are, I assume, political appointments, can the individuals continue in the Civil Service which is supposed to be apolitical when they leave their appointments as special advisers?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, when they cease to be special advisers they cease to be employed in the Civil Service.

Business
Lord Carter: My Lords, after the first debate today my noble friend Lady Amos will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement that is to be made in another place on humanitarian assistance for Kosovo refugees.
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, in the context of the Business statement that the noble Lord has just made, he will, of course, be aware that on Monday afternoon in the Statement on the European Summit commitments were given that we would have a Statement on the military situation in Kosovo before the Recess. The House will not know—although the noble Lord certainly does—that the Government have offered a Statement this evening to be taken at 10.30 p.m. In view of the fact that the House has been up until three o'clock in the morning for the past two days, the Opposition have decided not to accept that Statement. Apart from anything else, the business of the House would dictate that we would have to adjourn for some four or five hours, with all the attendant costs and problems that that would cause for the staff of the House.
Will the Government Chief Whip help us by offering to meet the commitment that was given on Monday afternoon by providing that the Minister for the Armed Forces in this House may come to the House between the debates today to give us a short address rather than a Statement about the military situation in Kosovo which would not necessarily cover the specific ground that is to be covered later in the evening by the Secretary of State? I am sure the House would welcome that way of dealing with the situation before the Recess. I hope that the noble Lord will consider that suggestion in a positive manner.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, from these Benches I add my support for the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. As the noble Lord said, it would not be possible for the Minister to repeat at 5.30 p.m. today a Statement to be made this evening. However, in the experience of your Lordships' House, the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, has always been willing to address the House. As we move into the Recess there is deep concern about the exposed position of British service personnel involved in the campaign. It would be a small but acceptable gesture for the noble Lord. Lord Gilbert, to address the House at that time.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I am grateful to the two noble Lords for their comments. However, they have rather sprung this matter on me. The only Statement that I know about is, of course, the Commons' Statement to be made this evening. I am sure that the whole House is grateful to the Opposition parties for not asking for that Statement to be repeated late tonight. The Secretary of State will make a Statement this evening at 10 o'clock and it is therefore not possible to repeat that at four o'clock this afternoon, if noble Lords follow me. I shall make inquiries about the matter, but I am not sure that it will be possible to meet the noble Lords' request. I understand what the noble Lords are saying. As I say, I shall make

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inquiries in this regard, but as the matter has been sprung on me it is rather hard for me now to give the answer that the noble Lords would like.
Lord Elton: My Lords, if the arrangements that the noble Lords have suggested cannot be achieved, will it be possible at least to have the Commons' Statement printed in the Lords' Hansard so that we shall know tomorrow what it said?
Lord Carter: My Lords, I shall inquire whether that is possible and, if it is, it shall be done.

European Community Legislation (Impact) Bill [H.L.]
3.6 p.m.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to require the provision of information on the impact of European Community legislation. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Willoughby de Broke.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Standing Orders (Public Business)
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Standing Orders relating to public business be amended as follows:
Standing Order 32, line 4, after ("sitting") insert ("other than a Friday")
Standing Order 51(4), line 1, leave out ("six") and insert ("eight").—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Motor Vehicle Crime
3.8 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy Lord Campbell of Croy rose to call attention to the amount of crime in the United Kingdom involving theft of road vehicles or breaking into them to steal the contents; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the hazards of the ballots for debate in the House has led to this debate being held on the day before the Recess and after two late nights of a marathon Second Reading debate on a Bill. I am therefore extremely grateful to those noble Lords who have put down their names to speak.
As parliamentarians we should be doing what we can to reduce car crime. Unfortunately, the United Kingdom has the worst record in western Europe, although the position has been improving over the past five years. We must continue the efforts that have been made and try to change attitudes towards car crime. Recent
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improvements are largely due, I believe, to the work of organisations that have been co-operating to this end in ways I shall describe.
Nonetheless, there is still a large number of criminal offences being committed, regrettably by young people, very often teenagers. Stealing a vehicle, or from it, is regarded by some young people as a game, an acceptable pastime. Combined with joyriding, this becomes a serious threat to life. A driver not qualified by training and with no licence or insurance causes a crash. It can be fatal. For example, a press report early in January indicated that in Hampshire two people had been killed in a crash in which the other vehicle, a Range Rover, was being driven by a 14 year-old. That vehicle had been, as it is described, taken without the owner's consent. Two passengers in the vehicle were aged 15 and 16. It was an episode which, I believe, the 14 year-old will regret for the rest of his life.
It is important to influence young people and to dissuade them from starting on this course. I initiated a debate in your Lordships' House on 9th February last year on a computer game entitled "Grand Theft Auto", which appeared to bless the stealing of cars and associated criminal offences as normal pastimes. It almost glamorised them. I shall not repeat what I said then but I described it as a disservice to the general public to produce that kind of computer game. Although the game was classified with an 18 certificate, making it a criminal offence to supply or sell it to a person under the age of 18, it is clear that the game is played usually by teenagers under that age and that very few people of 18 or over play it. The producers and suppliers of the game said, "Oh, well it's just a game. It's not serious". The trouble is that that is exactly the impression given for the real world as vehicles continue to be stolen.
Later last year, in a speech on the publication of the Consumers' Association's Car Security Guide, the Home Secretary was reported to be taking a similar line to the one I have taken about the regrettable number of young people committing car crimes. He was concentrating on the absence of deterrents or punishments for youngsters who offend. He pointed out that under the youth court system a conditional discharge or similar "let-off' is normal. No wonder the police have named this court process "the revolving door." The young offenders know that nothing unpleasant will happen to them if they are caught and they go out and do it again. I understand, however, that steps are being taken to change that situation in the courts described by Mr. Straw. The right honourable gentleman also said that he himself had been the victim at least three times of car crimes of this kind. So have I, my Lords. In one case, my car, parked near the House, was broken into by two young teenagers who smashed the side window with a brick in a sack. They were seen and chased by helpful "have-a-go" pedestrians and dropped the contents of my overnight bag—the only object that was worth stealing—as they ran. Usually, thieves go for car radios, cassettes or items more valuable than an overnight bag.
In any group of adults, if one asks, "Is there anyone here whose car has not at some time been stolen or broken into?", one seldom finds someone who comes forward because so many have experienced the inconvenience and distress that car crime can cause.
I am glad that the Home Secretary accepts that this is a serious subject and that he has made many of the points that I articulated in my debate earlier in the year. He intends to be tougher in dealing with young offenders when caught, and he has my support. There is also a positive side. Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, who I am glad to know is to reply to the debate, this question. Can more be done in educating youngsters to look forward to being legitimate drivers and owners, acquiring the skills and ability to look after a vehicle and enjoy the benefits?
An organisation that brings together a wide variety of bodies whose aim is to suppress car crime is the European Secure Vehicle Alliance, ESVA. Its membership includes the police and it enables useful exchanges of ideas and information to be made. I am myself a member. Its chairman is my noble friend Lord Brougham and Vaux. He intended to speak in the debate but I am sorry to say that he is not able to do so because of medical advice. I commend to the House the booklet recently published jointly by ESVA and two other bodies entitled Tackling Vehicle Crime.
Vehicle crime has been reduced by about 30 per cent. in the past six years. I understand that the Government are aiming at a 30 per cent. improvement over the next five years. I should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, could comment and expand on that point. Last September the Government established a vehicle crime reduction team, which should now be at work. I should be grateful if the noble Lord could give the House the latest information on that.
I wish to draw the attention of the House to some significant ways of defeating both the hardened criminals and the young offenders. First, a few years ago the locating system called "Tracker" became available. A small object was incorporated and concealed in a vehicle's structure. If stolen the vehicle could be traced and found. It proved very successful. In its early days it not only led to the recovery of the single vehicle but also revealed secret hiding places where 20 or 30 other stolen vehicles had been collected together by the thieves. The Tracker Network (UK) has successfully recovered well over 4,000 vehicles since it was launched in 1993 and has renewed its operating agreement until 2003 with all the 52 police forces in the United Kingdom, with which it has worked closely.
Another new protection is resistant laminated side glazing in vehicles. Cars are more secure if all the glass is so strong as to be virtually unbreakable. The glass industry and motor manufacturers have been collaborating to produce laminated glazing. The youths who attacked my car in the incident I described would have been frustrated and unsuccessful if that glass had been in the car. It inevitably makes a car more expensive and purchasers will have to choose how much they value security.
I should mention here a further consideration—the safety of the driver and the passengers in an accident. If the glass is unbreakable, there should nonetheless be ways of getting out if the car body is damaged or the doors are jammed. Furthermore, helpers and ambulance crews should be able to get in to release injured occupants. I hope that this development is proceeding and overcoming such problems to enable owners to make a choice in future.
Defeating car crime can be approached from different directions. About 30 per cent. of vehicle crime occurs in car parks, so measures to make them safer would help. Six years ago the secured car parks scheme was launched by the Association of Chief Police Officers. It is supported by other organisations and administered by the Automobile Association. Under the scheme awards are granted to car parks which meet the requirements of certain security criteria. On my latest count, some 600 car parks are in the scheme, with the prospect of many more joining. The striking result, shown by a recent survey, was a 70 per cent. reduction in vehicle crime in those parks after they qualified under the scheme.
I should not fail to mention another scheme which noble Lords may have heard about in connection with other kinds of crime. I refer to a registered charity called Crimestoppers. Telephone calls can be made, anonymously and free of charge, to provide instant information about a crime or suspected crime. It operates in close co-operation with the police and has proved successful in leading to recovery of stolen vehicles and to arrests. I carry the telephone number with me always. Noble Lords will no doubt ask me for it, so I shall give it now: it is 0800 555 111. That organisation has done very useful work in helping the police over thefts.
Another approach to reducing thefts exists in the scrap metal and vehicle salvage trades. Here I ask the Government to do more, as legislation will probably be needed. Of course, crooks remove identity marks, such as engine and chassis numbers, if it suits them. Vehicles are twinned by them or cloned with legitimate vehicles. Older vehicles near the end of their lives are welcome prey to crooks who can cannibalise them and use parts to construct supposed second-hand vehicles for sale, which are often extremely unsafe on the roads. This illegal trade is practised in particular with motorcycles. I draw to the attention of the Government the fact that a simple legislative measure could reduce these fraudulent ploys by incorporating vehicle salvage operations into the current scrap metal dealer legislation.
I remind your Lordships that some years ago, at the time when lead was being stripped off church roofs by thieves, legislation was introduced that gave the police powers to inspect the records of scrap metal dealers in order to establish that they were trading legitimately. The unscrupulous trade in elderly or damaged vehicles is a factor in the organised theft of vehicles. I suggest that police inspection of premises and records of the dealers in question should be permitted, as with those dealing in lead.
It is estimated that car crime represents about a quarter of all recorded crime in the United Kingdom. It causes distress and great inconvenience. It can be

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devastating to those who have to rely on their vehicles for their livelihood and for disabled people who depend on their cars. I urge everyone to give help and co-operation in reducing car crime. I beg to move for Papers.
3.23 p.m.
Lord Hardy of Wath: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Lord for his successful initiative in securing a debate on this important subject. I do not wish to detain the House long, but I have a few points to offer which I believe are of significance.
The noble Lord is right to say that people depend on their cars. We need to extend and improve public transport, but the car is an essential item, both socially and economically. For people, particularly poorer or disabled people, to be denied the use of their car because of theft is tragic. We tend to forget that for millions of people acquiring a car is not easy. It represents a substantial part of a family's budget. Because a car will be insured, the courts and the community may think that penalties are sufficient; but the loss of a no-claims bonus can be a substantial item.
As the noble Lord said, car theft represents a substantial part of the total number of crimes which occur in Britain. In my own area, South Yorkshire, the police campaigned for at least 10 years to try to persuade people to lock their cars and not to leave valuables visible inside. Many people took very little notice. Some took the view that breaking into a car was then so easy that there was no point in locking it. Valuables continued to be stolen because people were careless.
The pace at which car theft rose in my area was substantial. In 1988, for example, there were 8,522 recorded cases of car theft in South Yorkshire. The figure had risen to 22,500 by 1993. It peaked at about that figure until the South Yorkshire police acquired a helicopter. I confess that when the chief constable at that time, Richard Wells, told me that the Home Office had given his force permission to obtain a helicopter, I was a little concerned. I recognised that a helicopter could be very valuable, but I did not trust the previous administration. I could see it wanting the political adulation for allowing the South Yorkshire police to acquire a helicopter, but helicopters are very expensive to run. I asked the chief constable whether he was quite sure that the Home Office would give sufficient support to allow the helicopter to be used after it had been purchased.
I accepted that the helicopter would be useful, and useful it certainly has been. As soon as it came into operation, it began to have an effect upon car crime. In the first year of its operation, 1997, the number of car thefts fell to 15,245 and in the past 12 months has fallen again to 13,326, which is 10,000 fewer car thefts than in the peak year of 1993. I accept that the reduction is not only as a result of the use of the helicopter. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, told us of the organisational arrangements which seek to respond to
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the problem of car crime. But having a helicopter looking down has certainly proved quite a deterrent to many opportunist car thieves.
I believe that the police in my area, and probably everywhere else, as the noble Lord may have indicated, would recognise that professional car thieves may be less deterred than the opportunists. We need to see action of the kind recommended by the noble Lord to try to tackle this matter in a rather more sophisticated way. I take the point that the noble Lord made about introducing an arrangement similar to that which applies in the case of theft of lead from church roofs. There needs to be adequate mechanistic arrangements. The trouble is that all these measures increase the prices of cars, which makes the purchase of a car even more of a burden and makes it even more distressing when a car is stolen.
I have one suggestion which the Home Office might care to consider. We have to look at definitions. When a car is stolen, it is recorded as a theft. However, if the car is subsequently recovered—and many of them are—the crime is recorded as a taking without consent. It was a theft when the car was stolen and should be recorded and regarded as a theft even if the car is subsequently recovered. When the vehicle is recovered it may not be in quite the same condition or command the same respect as the driver had for it before it was taken away. Heaven knows what may be the effects of teenage joyriding, especially if the vehicle has been driven over rough ground which may not have done the suspension any good. Therefore, the question of definition should certainly be considered. That may well encourage those courts that tend to be a little complacent about the matter because of the benefit of insurance to recognise that this offence is likely to cause distress, great inconvenience and economic disadvantage to the vehicle owner.
I am very pleased with the work of the helicopter unit in South Yorkshire. I hope that many other forces that are now developing this particular facility will have the same experience. We need a sharper, more incisive attack on the professionals who are responsible for the possible disposal of vehicles in scrapyards, their illegal sale in England and an export trade in them that we can well do without. When the noble Lord gave a telephone number some noble Lords took out their diaries, as I did. By the time that I had found my diary and a pen I had forgotten the number. Perhaps at the end of the debate the noble Lord will remind us of it.
3.31 p.m.
The Viscount of Oxfuird: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy is to be congratulated on the way in which he set out the agenda for this debate, which is most important. Like him, I am a member of the European Secure Vehicle Alliance. In all of its work to reduce the level of vehicle crime throughout most of this decade there is one area which potentially offers great success but which to date has received little attention: education. I refer particularly to the education of young people to become responsible road users and citizens and, in the process, to reduce vehicle crime and road accidents. Vehicle crime is mainly a young people's crime.

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Last year a publication entitled Tackling Vehicle Crime was produced by the ESVA, an associate parliamentary group, together with Crime Concern and Vauxhall Motors. Referring to some of the Home Office statistics quoted in that publication, 75 per cent. of vehicle crime offenders are under the age of 21 and 36 per cent. are 16 years of age and under. That key issue has been focused upon by the ESVA since its formation in 1992. At that time one of the key aims was to seek to establish the driving test within the context of lifelong learning. The intention was to harness the enthusiasm of the young for cars and motorcycles within their education. However, as the philosophy of lifelong learning becomes more widely adopted, there is still no linkage being made between the driving test and learning for life. The driving test has fallen into the divide between the traditional school-based curriculum and the vocational-based provision associated with employers. Each has left the matter to the other. The newly-constituted Qualifications and Curriculum Authority is mindful of the issue but considers that no ready solution is apparent.
In response to the Queen's Speech on 30th November last year my noble friend Lord Brougham was able to report that considerable success could be achieved when the subject of education was addressed. For example, the Avon and Somerset Constabulary, which launched an initiative entitled Operation Impact in 1992, has produced figures which reveal that since then vehicle crime has fallen by 37 per cent. in its area as compared with 32 per cent. in England and Wales over the same period. That difference of 5 per cent. applied to the whole country could represent a very considerable improvement. Its assessment concluded that the work of its diversion team for young people was the most significant element of that programme. For example, 13 young people lost their lives in accidents involving stolen vehicles between 1992 and 1994. In 1997 there was only one fatality involving a stolen vehicle—12 young lives were saved by that initiative. In 1992 the research of Avon and Somerset Constabulary revealed that 33 per cent. of car thieves were under 16 and some were as young as 10, 11 or 12. The percentage of offenders aged 16 or under fell from 33 per cent. in 1992 to 13 per cent. in 1997.
The efforts of many competent practitioners in an area that can be defined as "community education involving vehicles" is detailed in the Tackling Vehicle Crime guide. But a shadow has been cast over the work since the publication of a Home Office report on motor projects last autumn. That Home Office report evaluated the 42 Probation Service-led schemes designed to deal with road crime. Reconviction rates after two years were examined in the case of over 1,000 offenders who attended projects between 1989 and 1993. It is unfortunate that it has taken until September 1998 for the report to be published, especially as the nature of most motor projects has changed dramatically over that time. The report concluded that actual reconviction rates were higher than predicted. The average reconviction rate was measured at 79 per cent. Yet a project operating since 1994 in Northumbria with a similar aim to those
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projects assessed in the original study reports only a 20 per cent. re-offending rate. That is a markedly more positive finding.
It is vital that the Home Office not only commissions new research into current projects which work with offenders but also recruits young people at risk and young people in general. In these circumstances outcomes such as "coursework accreditation" and "pathways into employment" are as appropriate as the measurement of re-offending rates. I hope that my remarks have highlighted that there remains an area of government policy that is (in common parlance) waiting to be joined up.
The Vehicle Crime Reduction Action Team formed last autumn has as its target the reduction of vehicle crime by 30 per cent. over the next five years. The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 places considerable emphasis on reducing the incidence of vehicle crime. Similarly, the Department for Education and Employment is concentrating on reducing truanting and exclusions and finding pathways into employment. The Department of Health is committed to reducing the accident rate among young people. The work of the Social Exclusion Unit also touches on these issues.
There is much to be done at government department level, as there is at local level, to take full advantage of this approach—which could be described as "community education involving vehicles". That will not only reduce vehicle crime and road accidents, but also provide pathways for young people to become responsible road users and citizens.
3.40 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy has, in introducing the debate, taken us into the realms of a £3½ billion crime business. That figure sounds fairly staggering. As my noble friend pointed out, it represents about a quarter of all reported crime. I say "reported" crime, because offences involving motor cars, particularly theft of the motor car and/or the valuables inside, are frequently not reported at all to the police, insurance companies or anyone else. So all the figures bandied about in this kind of debate are hugely suspect.
My noble friend Lord Oxfuird concluded his remarks by saying that there is much to be done. He emphasised the role of government departments. A vast number of the motor cars that are taken or broken into are left unlocked. Figures resulting from surveys by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders prove that categorically. So measures must begin with the owner.
In the motor business one of the hardest things to sell to a buyer is security. The next, oddly enough, is safety. One should not, therefore, he overly alarmed at press reports such as the recent report referring to tests on 35 motor cars, 16 of which were opened within seconds. Motor manufacturers can only put into a motor car what they can actually sell. They are continually playing catch-up. Experts will find a way of getting into the most secure vehicle or premises. What one is in fact doing is buying time. Many people are not prepared to buy that amount of time.

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The noble Lord, Lord Hardy of Wath, spoke about the export business in stolen vehicles, a business that we do not want. Of the 400,000-odd cars reported stolen—whether or not they are subsequently recovered is a moot point—the vast majority are older vehicles. They will never be able to be made secure. It is physically impossible. One can buy a steering-wheel lock, a clamp or something of that nature, but such devices are comparatively easy to disengage. Those cars are stolen for spare parts for re-identification of other motor cars. They are mainly stolen from car parks or on the street. My noble friend referred to the secured car parks scheme. That has proved enormously successful, with some very good reduction rates. But it is a great problem persuading car park operators to join the scheme. I should like car park operators to be required compulsorily to provide some elements of security.
Here, I must take a side-swipe at the railways. They seem more concerned with revenue earning and contracted clamping, which, incidentally, I believe is a crime in itself. There is nothing one can do at half-past one in the morning but pay one's £100 to have the motor car freed.
Another aspect of the stealing of cars relates to the more expensive, luxurious motor car. Most are stolen to order. Few cannot be entered within seven to 10 minutes, despite fairly sophisticated locking systems. Such cars mainly find their way into eastern Europe on the black market. It surprises me that they can be shipped within 12 hours of being stolen. The manifest will already have been made out, not describing the contents of the container as a motor car. Often the description is "farming machinery". Within 12 hours the motor car is in a container, on a boat, on its way ultimately to eastern Europe. I should like to see greater support and resources given to Customs and Excise to make the necessary examinations. This is big business. My noble friend has given the kind of figures we are talking about. I suggest that it is the responsibility of owners to look after their goods. If they did, much of this type of crime would be reduced.
I am not unhappy at the idea of compulsory excess payments where it can be shown that an insurance company's customer, the owner of the vehicle, has not demonstrated personal responsibility. It would be very difficult to introduce that provision into a policy. But there are well-known cases of people knowing that they can "steal" their own car, sell it and receive the insurance value. Loss adjusters have been able to find the so-called stolen motor car, which was never stolen in the first place. Insurance companies have a far greater responsibility to help the police, manufacturers and owners to combat crime.
3.48 p.m.
Lord Rotherwick: My Lords, figures from the Metropolitan Police Stolen Vehicle Unit indicate that nearly 52,000 motor cycles were stolen in 1997. Motor cycle sales were less than double that figure, at 93,000. Those figures show the appalling level of motor cycle
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thefts in this country. I am personally familiar with the problem, having twice had a powered two-wheeler (PTW) stolen in London in the past couple of years, one of which was lifted from a PTW parking space outside the High Court buildings.
Manufacturers ensure that PTWs have extensive primary security devices such as immobilisers and data tags. Even so thieves steal the vehicles by simply lifting them with relative ease into vans and lorries. Therefore, secondary anti-theft devices are needed, such as stands or racks to which PTWs can be secured. The Home Office puts the cost of all vehicle crimes at nearly £4 billion when one adds the hidden costs. We all have to pay higher prices, taxes and raised insurance premiums because of these thefts.
PTW registrations continue to rise. The number of registrations in May 1998 was up 55 per cent. on the 1997 figure and is up 33 per cent. in the year to date. All sections of the community use this means of transport, including many women and, believe it or not, disabled bikers who have specially modified PTWs.
In order to help to address this appalling theft dilemma, I presented the Road Traffic Regulation (Cycle Parking) Bill which received its First Reading yesterday. Briefly, the Bill will amend Section 63 of the Road Traffic Act so that authorities will be able to provide stands or racks or devices for securing motorcycles. The Bill aims to be as non-contentious as possible. The new powers would be discretionary on the authorities. I am particularly grateful to the Government for their help and support in enabling this Bill to be brought forward.
All parties pledged support for PTWs in their general election manifestos. When this Bill comes to your Lordships' House I hope that it will be allowed a speedy passage. The Bill is due for Second Reading on 28th April.
3.51 p.m.
The Earl of Haddington: My Lords, perhaps I may rise in the gap to point out that most of the car crime committed today involves the misappropriation of vehicles rather than theft. The crime of theft is extremely hard to prosecute successfully in relation to the illegal appropriation of a vehicle. When the thief is caught he could say that he intended to dump the vehicle and not to remove it on a permanent basis. Theft can be proved as a crime only if the vehicle is exported or resold. That is the one point that I would like to make. It is a pity that misappropriation was not included in the Bill.
3.52 p.m.
Viscount Falkland: My Lords, I am sorry that I was not in my place a few seconds earlier. I was inquiring the name of the noble Lord who has just spoken in the gap. I had not been informed that he was going to speak. It may be that the courtesies have changed in recent times. Nevertheless, his points were interesting and I welcome him to the debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, for giving us the chance to discuss what has become a very important problem.

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One thing I have learnt in 15 years in your Lordships' House is that if it is an issue on which one seeks action one needs the support of No. 10 Downing Street. The Prime Minister has given support to a vigorous attack on vehicle crime. I congratulate him on taking that initiative. Vehicle crime has been with us for some time.
I have to declare an interest. I am the unpaid chairman of the motorcycle industry's Motorcycle Theft Action Group, which was formed in 1991 during a period of crisis as regards the theft of motorcycles—a crisis of such proportion that in 1990–91 the insurance industry said that it was not going to write any further business for motorcycles. It was even considering withdrawing existing cover, including that for despatch riders. It was a moment of crisis.
I have enjoyed my position as chairman over the years. That is largely due to the fact that the all-party motorcycle group, of which I have the honour to be secretary, made quite a lot of noise about the problem of motorcycle theft and other issues. I am glad to see my fellow member, the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, here today. He is a very valuable member. As noble Lords heard, he has taken a very important step by introducing legislation to increase the safety of parking. I congratulate him on that initiative.
I believe that the group we set up was successful. I would like to think that in some way it gave inspiration to the ministerial group set up in response to the Prime Minister's concern. It is called the Vehicle Crime Reduction Action Team. It has asked the Motorcycle Theft Action Group to take part and to be one of the task groups. We are very willing to co-operate. When we set up our group it comprised everyone concerned with the issues and got them around the table to discuss the problems. We did not expect such an immediate response. It was very heartening for me to see such a disparate group working together within a very short time, throwing off individual prejudices and joining in targeted action against motorcycle theft. The group included manufacturers, dealers, riders, insurance organisations. spokesmen for sporting and motoring organisations and, importantly, the Home Office and the police.
The remit of the group initially was to attempt to persuade the insurance industry that it needed to take a different view of motorcycle insurance cover which had been provided in a rather uninspired way over a number of years. It should look at the statistics and identify where the risks lay. We also encouraged the introduction of certain secondary security measures, including locks and chains and a very important electronic device which made it more difficult for criminals to take motorcycles. It made the recovery of the vehicles more likely. Progress was slow. The police needed a scanner for vehicles which appeared to be suspiciously concocted from stolen parts. Gradually, an impact was made; eventually, it became profound. By 1996, a gradual reduction in motorcycle theft had been achieved.
Since 1996 we have returned to a steeper climb. That is largely due to the reintroduction on our streets and roads of scooters and mopeds in great numbers. Scooters have become a fashion item which young people find
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essential, including a rather large pair of white shoes and often a baseball cap. They are expensive machines. As noble Lords know, everything in this country is expensive.
Parts, in particular, are expensive. Noble Lords who drive cars know that it is far more expensive to buy spares in this country than in Germany or France. I have a cracked lens on a foglamp on my car. It would cost about £20 to replace in Belgium, France, Holland or Germany. Here it costs £150. That is repeated throughout the motor car and motorcycle industry.
As noble Lords have said, vehicle crime is somewhere near 30 per cent. of total crime. There is a great temptation for young people to scour the trade papers and small advertisements to buy parts cheaply from vehicle breakers. Young people nowadays like to ride motorcycles for leisure purposes rather than for travelling to work. I agree with the noble Lord who suggested that registration of vehicle breakers might be an important step in making it more difficult and less desirable for criminals to sell stolen vehicles to breakers.
One of the fundamental problems with motorcycles is that they fall over; cars bash into them. They are expensive to repair, and there is good business to be done by dishonest breakers. I hope that the Vehicle Crime Reduction Action Team will address the problem. I know that it is on the team's 14-point plan.
Why do people steal vehicles? For a criminal it is a relatively low risk reward ratio activity. If, on leaving this House, any noble Lord attempted to become a criminal (which I hope he will not) I suggest that he does not burgle my house but considers vehicle crime. It is more remunerative and one is less likely to be caught. A dispiriting factor for those who have done excellent work in the stolen vehicle squads is that when they have set up long and expensive operations to catch thieves—we have been told that the theft of vehicles represents about £3 billion a year—the Crown Prosecution Service says that it is unlikely that there will be a conviction. We have even had cases where individuals have committed crimes when they are on bail for serious offences of stealing motorcycles. It is a worrying area.
Other noble Lords have given statistics. They are worrying. Overall the figures are on the increase. There has been a decrease as regards expensive saloon and other cars. I take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said. Nowadays it is at least possible to protect a car pretty thoroughly if one is prepared to spend the money. Although people spend a large amount on motor cars, as they do on houses, they do not act to protect their property until they suffer a loss. One can protect a car adequately now for about £250. That is a small part of the cost of a new car.
Vehicle crime pays. I hope that through their efforts the Government will make it a crime which does not pay. It is clear that through No. 10 we now have the political will to do so. We have the expertise in the police. We have the support of ACPO. It is a time-consuming business for police officers. It is extremely worrying and expensive for those who own vehicles to have them stolen. The cost of the whole

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exercise is prohibitive. It is a self-perpetuating problem in society. I do not think that it is as bad as statistics indicate because, as noble Lords have said, the basis on which the figures are calculated is slightly different in different countries. Nevertheless, this country is probably the Mecca for motorcycle thieves.
It is possible to deal with the problem. I hope that we shall now hear from the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, that the initiative is under way. It has the full support of motorcyclists. I hope that together we can substantially reduce the problem.
4.5 p.m.
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, we are all grateful to my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy for initiating the debate with his customary clarity and careful research. It has given rise to a debate which has been particularly well informed. It so happens that five hereditary Peers spoke one after another; that may not have been sheer coincidence but it is a fact.
Many have suffered from car crime. I have to tell my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth that my car was stolen from a railway car park several years ago when I was a Member of another place. It was used in an attempted robbery of the bar of the local rugger club. Fortunately Hansard provided me with a first class alibi; and I therefore have even more reason to be grateful to that noble institution.
I do not ride a motor cycle these days except occasionally with the excellent motor cycle chauffeurs, which provide an excellent way to get about town. My noble friend was quite right to say that car crime has come down because of a series of actions encouraged by the former government and this Government. A number of factors are involved, as has been demonstrated already in the debate. First, the police are targeting car crime much more. The force I know best is the Avon and Somerset force, mentioned by my noble friend Lord Oxfuird. It gave the matter high priority several years ago, and showed me recently what it was doing. Like the South Yorkshire Police, about four years ago it also acquired a helicopter which has proved valuable. It is particularly effective in dealing with criminals who use stolen cars to smash shop fronts, to steal from the shops and race away. That crime was becoming prevalent outside Bristol. The helicopter has been valuable in dealing with that rather specialist form of car crime.
Giving a high priority to improved intelligence gathering and improved analysis of the details of the car crimes committed is extremely valuable. My noble friend Lord Oxfuird mentioned the initiatives to handle young offenders which are important in reducing re-offending.
Car manufacturers have also given a higher priority to security. My noble friend Lord Lucas is right to tell us from his own experience of the difficulty of selling security to car buyers. But there is no doubt in my mind that it has been a real sales point on the part of the manufacturers and dealers to emphasise that new cars are now made more difficult to steal because of
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electronic locks, the tracker systems for the more desirable types of expensive cars, and so on. Car radios have been made more difficult to steal. They are coded and have removable fronts so that they can be disabled and difficult to operate in another car.
Mention was rightly made of secure car parks with the use of closed-circuit television. The use of CCTV is effective in providing security and in bring subsequent prosecutions of the criminals. It is also an extremely good deterrent, even if the cameras are dummy cameras. I was recently shown a video by the police force in which the criminal had been clearly photographed by a concealed camera doing his best to damage the dummy camera before stealing a car. I am pleased to say that his efforts were ineffective.
We were also right to be warned today that motorists have a part to play. In particular, they should not leave items in cars and should lock their cars properly. Warnings have been given by the police, by successive governments and other bodies, but it cannot be said too often that one is personally responsible for one's own property, including a car and anything in it. The suggestions about insurance were a valuable contribution to the debate.
All those factors have contributed to the reduction in car crime, but we, the Government and other agencies involved must not relax our efforts. It was rightly said that car crime is proportionately high in this country as compared with others. Those fighting car and motor cycle crime need some encouragement and I am sure that the debate will have provided the right kind.
Lord Monson: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Cope, sits down, perhaps I may ask a question. I apologise if it was answered before I entered the Chamber. Does he agree that the reduction in the maximum sentence for taking a car without consent from two years to six months, for which the previous Conservative administration were responsible, must to some extent be to blame for the high level of car theft?
Lord Cope of Berkeley: My Lords, during the past five or six years, the figures relating to car theft have fallen dramatically. Whatever the effects of the change to which the noble Lord drew attention, fewer cars have been stolen. That is to the credit of all the agencies involved, including both governments.
4.12 p.m.
Lord Hoyle: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, for initiating our debate today drawing attention to the problem of vehicle crime.
While much progress has been made in recent years, as has been said by noble Lords, much more needs to be done. The Government agree and are placing a high priority on tackling vehicle crime. An important sign of the Government's determination to reduce vehicle crime was given in the Prime Minister's announcement last year of a target to reduce vehicle crime by 30 per cent. over the next five years. Setting the target is important because it raises the profile of vehicle crime and provides a stimulus for action across the board.

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It is tough and challenging, but we believe that it is achievable with concerted effort by all those who have a part to play.
That is why we have established the vehicle crime reduction action team, referred to by many noble Lords. It is chaired by Mike Wear, the Director of Fleet Operations at the Ford Motor Company, Most importantly, it comprises representatives of the motor manufacturers and retailers, the insurance industry, the Automobile Association, the police and government departments concerned: the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the Scottish Office and the Home Office. Its programme of work, which was mentioned today, is known as the "14 point plan", drawn up by the Association of Chief Police Officers and the former Vehicle Crime Prevention Group.
I was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, whether I would identify the key issues the team is examining. One of them is improving car park security, which will help to reduce car crime. Another is improving the levels of security on new and used vehicles. I heard the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, say that used vehicles cannot be made secure. However, they can be improved and the team is examining that and trying to ensure that the idea is sold to the public.
It will enhance the contribution made by the police and government departments, including bringing forward proposals for legislation wherever necessary. Of course, it will take time for potential solutions to develop and take effect. That is why we have set a target of five years to bring down the level by 30 per cent.
I turn to some of the points that were made during the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell, mentioned the tracker network. That is the vehicle recovery system, of which the network is an example. It is a very valuable aid in the recovery of stolen vehicles, but we must also concentrate on the important issue of making them more difficult to steal.
As regards salvage, legislation may be necessary in order to protect manufacturers' marking of parts. That is being considered by the action team, which is important. The noble Viscount, Lord Oxfuird, mentioned that 75 per cent. of the offenders are under the age of 21 and he asked what is being done to bring forward the driving test. I could not agree more that it is an important life skill, but one of the problems is that the national curriculum applies only until the age of 16. Provisional driving licences cannot be issued to younger people and they are not allowed to drive cars. Despite all that, we must consider all these problems together and see what we can do to solve them. Youngsters can consider participating in the motor project schemes, acquiring individual skills. We should do all we can to educate young people about motor vehicles, which may have a beneficial effect. However, recent Home Office research showed disappointing figures in relation to the motor project schemes. Poor results were found to exist on the part of young offenders where there was a racing element. We hoped that it would prove that fewer people were offending but it did not achieve that. Nevertheless, we must consider the development of those schemes and
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we shall work to determine how such initiatives can be made to be more effective in reducing offending. We must bring all that together and do all that we can to make sure that we look at the best projects available. Indeed, Avon and Somerset was referred to in that respect. I am sure that lessons can be learnt from what has been done.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, said that England and Wales is the car-crime capital of Europe. We do have a major problem but, in that respect, it is difficult to compare like with like because different definitions are used to produce the recorded crime figures.
It is important also that we improve car park security. We strongly support ACPO in the secure car park schemes because it has been shown that, where car parks are secure, there can be an average reduction in car crime and theft from cars of about 70 per cent. CCTV plays an extremely important part in that. The Government are providing additional funding of more than £150 million for CCTV. We shall bring that to the attention of owners of car parks and, in particular, to the attention of local authorities which own many of the car parks.
There has also been the creation of the new award status for car parks, but that has been very disappointing up to now. There are only 303 car parks involved. That is because local authorities have other priorities. Nevertheless, we intend to try to persuade more local authorities to make their car parks more secure.
I was very interested in the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Hardy when he told us what has been done in South Yorkshire. There is no doubt that the helicopter has played an important part not only in assisting the South Yorkshire Constabulary but in assisting many other police forces as well.
My noble friend asked about various crime statistics and whether a stolen car was classified as the crime of theft or taking without the owner's consent. That depends on the circumstances. However, both sets of figures come together in the overall theft statistics which are recorded.
I bow to the expertise and knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. I agree with him that very often car owners can help themselves. Too often, they leave their vehicles unlocked. I am sure that many noble Lords in this House as well as many others—and I could have a red face in this regard—have, on a very cold winter's morning, left the engine running and have been very fortunate that the car has not disappeared. Another example of that is at the filling station. Unfortunately, many people pay for their petrol and leave the keys in the car. That is extremely foolish but, nevertheless, it happens. It is difficult to know how many stolen vehicles have been left unlocked because owners, due to their insurance, are very reluctant to admit that they have been foolish in that respect.
Mention was made of the courts and penalties. Those must be examined and, if need be, changes must be made because we must do all we possibly can to reduce theft.

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The noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, mentioned the Bill which he is to bring before the House to deal with motor cycle theft. I am sure that the noble Lord will be pleased to know that that Bill will receive the support of the DETR which I am sure will be extremely helpful.
The noble Earl, Lord Haddington, mentioned the Crime and Disorder Bill in a rather surprising intervention. He raised an extremely interesting point and I shall make sure that that is passed on. Somerset and Avon has been mentioned as one of the forces which has been extremely successful. I should mention too, for the benefit of my noble friend Lord Parry, that Dyfed and Powys have been successful particularly in relation to licence plate numbers and printing them on agricultural vehicles. That county has certainly been at the forefront of the fight against car crime.
I was extremely interested in what the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, said about motor cycles. It is true that there is a very low recovery rate. I believe that it is about 14 per cent. for motor cycles compared with 70 per cent. for cars. So it is particularly important that thieves should be discouraged. We must also look to motor cycle manufacturers themselves. Car manufacturers have improved the security of cars and motor cycle manufacturers must also look to see what can be done in that regard. The noble Viscount made the point that the vehicle crime reduction action team has a task group which is looking at that. So let us hope that together they may be able to reduce the numbers of thefts.
Moreover, there is no doubt that cars have been made more secure by motor manufacturers. The electronic demobilisation of cars has been extremely important. It is possible that more can be done in relation to locks, the glass and so on. Nevertheless, a great deal has been done. But we must not be complacent. I repeat that vehicle crime is a high priority for the Government because it is such a high-volume crime. Despite a reduction under successive governments, in 1998 there were 1.1 million recorded offences of vehicle crime which accounted for 24 per cent. of all recorded crime. I am sure noble Lords will agree that that figure is far too high.
Noble Lords have referred to the valuable market for selling cars. But other serious offences are also commissioned, including drug trafficking, terrorism and other forms of criminality.
Tackling vehicle crime successfully will have substantial knock-on effects and will enable those other offences, which are very serious indeed, to be tackled as well. I am encouraged by the great interest which has been shown and the expertise displayed by your Lordships in putting forward suggestions to tackle vehicle crime. Tackling it successfully is not just the job of the Government or of the police alone. We shall not succeed merely by passing and enforcing new laws, although that does have an important part to play. We shall succeed by working with others who have important contributions to make to ensure that we tackle vehicle crime. Therefore we set up the vehicle crime
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reduction action team, with its wide spread of representation, to implement the work which is necessary to achieve the target.
Finally, I thank all who have participated for drawing attention to the need to wage war on vehicle crime.
4.28 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I too am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I could only raise a limited number of points on what is an extremely diverse subject and I am glad that other speakers have been able to fill in the gaps.
I particularly valued the support from the noble Lord, Lord Hardy of Wath, and his experience from the north of England, and the support from my noble friend Lord Oxfuird, whose emphasis, as at the beginning of my speech, was on young people and how they can be guided in the right directions. I hope, like him, that something can be done to incorporate the motor car into their upbringing and education.
My noble friend Lord Lucas described the disappearance of vehicles in disguise and misdescribed in speedy export abroad. The noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, and my noble friend Lord Rotherwick, both spoke about motorcycles, to which I only had time to make a single reference in my initial speech. My noble friend Lord Cope helped our debate by raising yet other related matters, and I should particularly like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, for having replied to, I think, everything on which we asked him to comment. I am of course particularly interested when he says that the whole subject of salvage and scrap merchants, which is a very important element in this field, is under consideration.
By special request, I shall now slowly repeat the telephone number of Crimestoppers, which should appear twice in Hansard. It is: 0800 555 111. That can be an extremely useful number to have on one's person. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

Business
4.31 p.m.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, before we move to the Statement on humanitarian assistance for Kosovo refugees, I should like to take the opportunity to remind the House that the Companion indicates that discussion on a Statement should be confined to brief comments and questions for clarification. Peers who speak at length do so at the expense of other noble Lords.
I wonder whether if I might also take the opportunity to say to the House that, following further discussions between the usual channels, it has been agreed that there will not be any additional Statements today. Noble

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Lords wishing to read tonight's Commons Statement will be able to obtain a copy of the relevant Hansard from the Printed Paper Office.

Kosovo Refugees: Humanitarian Assistance
4.32 p.m.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to repeat Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development.
"Madam Speaker, with permission I will make a Statement on humanitarian assistance for Kosovo refugees. I will set out what we understand the latest position to be, and what our and the international response has been. But first, I want to make one point clear. I reject absolutely suggestions that we should have been prepared in advance for a movement of population on this scale. It would have been an appalling act of complicity in ethnic cleansing to set up in advance a network of camps to await the Albanian population of Kosovo. That would only have assisted Milosevic's objectives. What is now happening is a reflection of unimaginably outrageous behaviour on the part of the Serbian forces. People's outrage must be directed at the Serbian aggression and not the UN agencies struggling to cope with the crisis.
"Our objective is clear. It is to secure a verified withdrawal of Serbian forces from Kosovo so that the refugees, including those displaced internally, can return to their homes. Meanwhile I can assure the House that we will do all in our power to support the international effort to provide as quickly as possible shelter and food for those who have been driven over the borders.
"As the House knows, there were over a quarter of a million internally displaced people within Kosovo, and a further hundred thousand in neighbouring countries, before NATO intervened. But the situation has sharply deteriorated in recent days.
"As people have seen on their television screens, more than 100,000 people, mostly women, children and elderly people, have been driven from their homes. They are very frightened. They are bringing with them stories of gross brutality and killing which forced them to leave and often forced their menfolk to stay. The numbers in Albania are now 100,000 and the flow continues. In Macedonia there were 16,000 refugees before 24th March and another 14,500 have arrived. More are expected.
"We share the concern of the House and people worldwide that the response to the crisis needs to be speeded up. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees is leading a co-ordinated international response. We are doing all we can to support UNHCR, other UN agencies, the International Red Cross and NGOs, which are providing assistance.
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"At the beginning of this week the Prime Minister announced that we had made available up to a further £10 million as an initial response to the current crisis. We are using this funding to get the most urgently needed items to where they are required. This is in addition to the £3 million provided for emergency relief in Kosovo since March 1998.
"The first UK emergency flight, carrying 42 tonnes of tents and blankets, arrived in Tirana early this morning, and the supplies are being distributed. A further flight using an RAF C130 aircraft is taking more tents and blankets to Skopje today. A UK-funded flight with UNHCR emergency personnel and supplies is also leaving Amsterdam today for Tirana. We have also agreed to help airlift supplies into the region from UNHCR warehouses in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. A further eight UK organised relief flights into Albania and Macedonia are planned for the coming week. We have, in the last hour, provided £500,000 for the world's food programme to assist in the distribution of food to those in need.
"We are identifying other ways of meeting urgent needs. We are providing emergency health kits through the World Health Organisation to cover the needs of 70,000 people for three months. We have provided £500,000 to help support the Red Cross operations in the region. We have asked NGOs working in the region to tell us their needs and have offered them logistical assistance to get into the field.
"We will make further allocations over the coming days as needs become clear. To help identify these needs, we are sending an assessment and monitoring team to the region. They will leave the UK this weekend, led by the head of my conflict and humanitarian affairs department.
"The situation in Kosovo is a terrible tragedy—just as was the suffering inflicted in Bosnia by the same regime engaging in the same monstrous behaviour. This time the difference is that the international community is acting militarily to halt the aggression. Everyone should be clear that the Kosovo refugees support the military action. They need urgent help with food, shelter and other emergency provisions. But they are clear that they want NATO to succeed and they want to return to their homes. We are doing all in our power to support the UN effort and to speed up the humanitarian response. We will remain committed until we can assist with the more welcome task of helping the refugees to return home."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement
4.38 p.m.
Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement made in another place by the Secretary of State. We on this side of the House welcome much of the action that has been taken. I am grateful, too, for this Statement covering the humanitarian side of the war in Kosovo as it was due to the humanitarian atrocities committed by President Milosevic that NATO became involved initially.

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I should also like to add to what previous noble Lords have said on other occasions: that we on this side of the House take immense pride in our British Armed Forces and the professionalism that has seen them successfully minimalise civilian casualties, at great risk to themselves. I trust that the noble Baroness agrees that, with 500,000 people displaced—one-quarter of a population of 2 million—that is an extremely serious humanitarian crisis. I hope that the noble Baroness will also agree that President Milosevic is responsible for the crisis.
The air strikes started on 24th March. Can the noble Baroness tell the House to what extent her department had already prepared, by that date, an action plan to meet the refugee crisis that would inevitably follow? I understand, as she said in the Statement, that her department was unaware of the scale, but it must have realised that the situation would be serious. When was the interdepartmental Kosovo emergency task force set up? Can the noble Baroness tell the House what co-ordination has taken place between her department and the FCO and the MoD in producing that plan? In other words, did she anticipate the flood of refugees and the awful reprisals carried out on the Kosovan people? Had her department prepared, in any way, for these horrific circumstances?
In this country we are incredibly lucky to have outstanding NGOs. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, reminded us in a previous debate that there are about 16 non-governmental organisations active in Kosovo at the moment. Luckily, and by good management, the Red Cross had stockpiles already prepared. A joint appeal involving the Federation of the Red Cross and the Red Crescent, which is all important in this area, with the International Red Cross, will start tomorrow.
Does the noble Baroness understand that many will feel that at the same time as aeroplanes were given the green light to fly, the humanitarian relief effort should have been ready to roll? Can she tell us what co-ordination there has been between herself and aid Ministers in all the NATO countries in preparing for that effort? When did it begin?
Does she agree that, given that this conflict is on the doorstep of Europe, there is an opportunity for the European Community to respond, through the ECHO, which both she and I have rightly criticised in the past, to the challenge and provide focused, urgent and effective aid to the people of Kosovo? Perhaps some of the European Union food surpluses could be sent to Albania and Macedonia for the Kosovan refugees.
Does the noble Baroness believe that the UNHCR has sufficient people on the ground to co-ordinate the humanitarian effort? What specific plans are in place to overcome the logistical difficulties in getting food, blankets and medicine to those who need them? Does she agree that the situation on the ground in north-west Albania, with little by way of law and order, is particularly unsuitable for many of the refugees? Are steps in hand to help the Albanians to put in place the necessary structures? Does the noble Baroness see a role for British troops in Bosnia and Macedonia to help to deliver humanitarian assistance?
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Finally, what plans are her department making to switch aid once the political situation is restored and convert it into long-term development assistance which the people of Kosovo will need to rebuild their homes and their lives so that they can go back in safety? Will the Government make absolutely certain that the Serbs play a full part, both physically and economically?
4.43 p.m.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I also thank the Minister for her kindness in repeating the Statement made in another place. I congratulate her department on its rapid reaction to the extremely disturbing refugee situation. Perhaps I can also take this opportunity to congratulate the German Government, which I understand intends to call a meeting of all the neighbouring states to try to resolve some of the problems that have arisen. That seems to me a proper use of the German presidency of the European Union.
Perhaps I may ask the indulgence of your Lordships and mention the names of some who have been killed in the last day or two in Kosovo. They include Mr. Agami, one of the leading negotiators for the Albanian team who signed the Rambouillet agreement, and Mr. Haxhiu, the outstanding editor of a newspaper of remarkable independence in Kosovo. Mr. Surroi, a brave and outspoken fighter for human rights and press freedom, has fled and his fate is unknown. Most tragic and ironic of all perhaps is the case of Mr. Ibrahim Rugova, who, as many noble Lords will know, is an apostle of non-violence throughout the Balkans. He is a man who has never advocated violence in his life, whose house has been burned down and who, we understand, has fled into the mountains. That puts into human terms the terrible scale of what is happening in Kosovo, where even negotiators for settlements are now being slaughtered.
I shall make one other comment before I turn to two questions. I shall not detain the House for long. My comment is that the scale of the refugee crisis is such as to threaten destabilisation of the neighbouring countries, in particular Macedonia and Albania. Macedonia is a state held together on the basis of an Albanian minority and a Slav majority. As many will know, it is a flimsy and fragile state whose democracy is important to the stability of this part of south-eastern Europe. Many of us fear that if the Albanian refugees remain for a long period in Macedonia that fragile democracy could be threatened. It is vital that those refugees who wish to move on are given the chance to do so.
On Albania, I concur with what the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, said from the Conservative Benches. This is a border in almost total chaos. Some noble Lords will recall that from these Benches we have asked, time and time again, that aid be sent to the Albanian border to assist in protecting that border. That is now more urgent than ever. It is a border characterised as porous to the movement of arms, drugs, people and many other highly undesirable elements in the war currently being fought.
I turn to my two questions. The first is in regard to the troops currently in Kumanovo, some eight or nine miles from the border. Recently, I saw that troop

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formation. There are large numbers of very well trained troops, 3,200 of them. They are highly motivated British men and women. There are many trucks and personnel carriers and there are many methods of trying to move people and cargo around. As they are a peacekeeping force, I wonder whether the Ministry of Defence will consider their use in a humanitarian capacity, both to register refugees as they come over the border and to help to move some of them away from that dangerous and vulnerable area. The refugees, some of whom need medical help, are pi ling up on the Macedonian border and waiting, in some cases for hours, to be dealt with.
I understand that there are members of the Irish Guards, the King's Royal Hussars and the Fourth Regiment of the Royal Artillery in the Operation Agricola group of troops. Will the Minister commend the idea to her right honourable friend and her colleague in this House that those troops should assist? I do not need to underline how vital it is that we are seen to be engaged in humanitarian relief, and using those resources for that purpose.
My second question concerns the Home Office. Again, I raise an issue concerning a department other than that of the noble Baroness. At present, a number of Kosovars are in detention in this country. Their claim that they are liable to persecution to the limit of their lives is doubted by our immigration authorities. I do not blame them in any way. It now seems clear that that is likely to be a very reasonable argument. Will Her Majesty's Government consider, at least temporarily, allowing those detainees to be resettled for the time being in this country and will they lift the visa regime, which currently means that refugees are piling up in Calais? It is vital that the EU as a whole considers the refugees and how best to deal with them.
Finally, I wish to draw one lesson from this. It is now overwhelmingly clear that any agreement to end the war, dreadful as it is, must include an international protectorate in Kosovo because we cannot expect half a million refugees to return to a country in which they were tortured and raped and where they have seen family members murdered unless they have an absolutely firm guarantee that the territory is under the control of international UN or NATO forces which will not allow such atrocities to occur again.
4.50 p.m.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I should like first to support the statement made by the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, about our pride in our Armed Forces and their professionalism. That point is consistently made in this House. I agree with the noble Baroness that this is a serious humanitarian crisis. I was asked particularly about whether the department had prepared an action plan. The Department for International Development has considerable expertise and experience in humanitarian assistance, as is recognised worldwide. There has been ongoing co-ordination involving Ministers and officials throughout the crisis, with constant conversations and meetings.
In relation to non-governmental organisations, I am aware that the NGOs have agreed to launch an appeal. Obviously, this is a matter for them, but we are
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supporting the humanitarian effort, having allocated £10 million to the humanitarian crisis. Other donors have contributed significantly, including the European Union. ECHO has allocated 10 million ecus for humanitarian assistance through UNHCR, the Red Cross and other organisations. On the matter of whether we consider that the UNHCR has sufficient people on the ground, we are assisting that organisation by helping it to fly people into the area. So we do not consider that it has enough people on the ground at this point.
On the question of the logistical difficulties of assisting refugees, there is a problem in the north of Albania. The territory is difficult and it is cold. The Italians have assisted by sending in coaches to move people from the north down to the south. It is proposed to establish refugee camps near Tiranë, using two football pitches.
Both noble Baronesses asked about the role of British troops. We think it desirable that troops assist with the humanitarian effort. We are holding discussions on that point, but clearly the troops also have other military duties to manage.
The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, asked a specific question on the Home Office and asylum for Kosovar refugees. That point is under active discussion. I understand that the UNHCR has called a meeting. It will take place in Geneva on Tuesday and this is one of the items on the agenda. The noble Baroness will understand that I am unable to say more at this stage, but I undertake to write to her once the outcome of those discussions is known.
4.53 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Oxford: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement. Is everything being done to draw the NGOs fully into the relief effort? Many have partners on the ground. Christian Aid, for example, has partners in both Macedonia and Italy. They have a valuable perspective and much experience. I hope that they are being fully involved.
Secondly, can the Minister comment on the disturbing reports coming through this afternoon that unless relief reaches people in Kosovo within two weeks there is likely to be starvation there? Obviously, with Serbian troops in control of Kosovo, it seems that virtually nothing can be done, but has the Minister any thoughts on whether it is possible to do something to meet that impending further disaster?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, we had a meeting yesterday with the NGOs. They are considering the kind of funding applications that they would like to make to the department. We have undertaken to respond to those applications within a very short timescale—as short as between six and 12 hours if necessary—because this is a crisis. We are aware of the reports about the possibility of starvation in Kosovo, but we cannot verify whether they are accurate. Within the past hour, we have allocated £0.5 million to the World Food Programme

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to help with the logistics of moving the food around. However, I cannot advise the right reverend Prelate whether it will be possible to do that in Kosovo.
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for repeating the Statement. I emphasise what I think we must take the opportunity to state whenever we can. The problem of refugees has not been caused by the activity of NATO, but by the genocide being perpetrated by the Milosevic Government, and that in those circumstances, we still have a continuing obligation to help. Is my noble friend aware that we are very grateful for the fact that the Statement emphasised the collaboration of DfID with the whole of the rest of the international community, with non-governmental organisations and with the European Union, which is represented by Mrs. Bonino in a mission to see Kosovan refugees even while we are debating?
Does my noble friend agree that we should not shrink in the future from finding all the necessary funding and other resources for humanitarian aid, just as we have not measured the cost in taking the necessary action against the Milosevic Government? I think that the one has to follow just as clearly as the other. I hope that my noble friend will confirm that the generosity being shown by the Government at present will be ongoing until the problem is resolved.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Tomlinson that the refugee problem has not been caused by the activities of NATO. We have been clear throughout that this has to be an international effort if it is to succeed. We are working in partnership not only with our European colleagues, but also with the international community. We are also working in partnership across government to enable us to be as effective as possible.
With regard to my noble friend's question about funding and resources, I can assure him that funding is not the issue. The department has found £10 million out of its own budget. We have a budget for humanitarian assistance. Future priorities will be for the whole Government to decide. They will be considered in the light of the outcome of the impact and assessment which a joint MoD/DflD team will be making over the next week, and in the light of other developments in the region.
Baroness Ludford: My Lords, is it not true that one lesson that we must learn from this tragedy is that we need to stand up sooner to bullying dictators because injustice breeds instability and that we must back someone like a future Mr. Rugova? As the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, said, we must fund the humanitarian agencies properly. I believe that I heard the UK representative of UNHCR say last night that in January UNHCR launched an appeal asking for about £360 million and that only one-third has been received. What share of that appeal have the UK Government
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paid? Will the noble Baroness ensure that in the future we make our full contribution to such appeals because it is a very good investment?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, that there are important lessons to be learnt, which I am sure we will continue to learn. With respect to her comments about the UNHCR appeal, I cannot give the detail that the noble Baroness requires but will write to her if there is any additional information I can provide. However, I can say that we are assisting the UNHCR. A total of 10 flights will be going in during the next week, some to transport UNHCR personnel. but others to assist the UNHCR in ensuring that blankets and so forth reach the right places. We have therefore been playing our part fully in supporting the UNHCR.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, will the Minister consider a small practical proposal which may be relevant to the meeting in Geneva? In the last war but one, there was an interesting document called the "Nansen passport". We understand that the regime in Kosovo has been depriving everybody crossing the border of their passports, their pièces d'identité and anything else that proves that they are citizens of Kosovo. When Milosevic was talking to the Russian Prime Minister, he said with some cynicism that anybody who could prove that they were Yugoslav citizens would of course be allowed to return. They have obviously made their best efforts to ensure that those people will be stateless. Can we consider making a proposal for something like a Nansen passport which will give them status and which will have to be accepted unless and until they can make some better arrangements?
There is one other minor matter that I want to raise. Although I utterly support the point in relation to resources, let us remember that we shall also need a lot more defence resources, and nobody ever mentions that.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, for her helpful suggestion. We will take it away and consider it carefully. Also, I can assure her that a registration process is ongoing in Albania, both in the north and south of the country. We are conscious of the need to ensure that we maintain proper records. I am sure that the Ministry of Defence agrees with the statement in regard to the need for more defence resources.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, I have a general political military question which comes to rest on the refugees. Everybody accepts that the NATO attack is not what caused the Serbian dictator to attack the Kosovars; that was taking place long before. But it gave rise to a great increase in the severity and atrocity of the attacks. The situation now is that Milosevic is attacking the Kosovars; we are attacking Milosevic.
Yesterday, or the day before, Milosevic made known to the world his proposals, not for peace but for a sort of ceasefire, which were announced by the Prime Minister of Russia after his visit; that is, if we stop

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attacking him, he will stop attacking the Kosovars. That is not a peace proposal; it is not a settlement. But what is against our accepting it and giving it a trial run of two or three days?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I know that my noble friend Lord Kennet does not expect me to go into the kind of detail that his question implies. It has been made clear by NATO, by our own Secretary of State for Defence and others within the NATO alliance that that statement did not meet our requirements. I repeat: that statement did not meet our requirements.
The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating a Statement on humanitarian assistance, which is independent of the military situation. The House appreciates that and I hope there will be more such separate Statements on humanitarian affairs.
The noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, mentioned the NGOs in Kosovo. Perhaps I can correct both her and myself. Since our debate last week, all the NGOs have left Kosovo—I speak for all the European NGOs—and, having had a word with three of them in UK agencies this afternoon, the situation is extremely delicate for them. They have almost no infrastructure in Albania, and Macedonia is now getting much more protection from NATO. Can the noble Baroness say whether the unit winch has been set up jointly with the MoD is reflected in Brussels so that we have a joint action to protect the NGOs as much as the people of Kosovo who are fleeing? It would be helpful to have clarification of the role that NATO is playing in humanitarian assistance.
Finally, I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, said about UNHCR. We have all seen on our television screens how frail the UNHCR effort is. It enables us to ask the question: what is the United States, the senior partner in NATO, doing to support the humanitarian back-up which UNHCR should provide?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. with respect to the situation in Kosovo and the NGOs. The last two NGOs in Kosovo—MSF and International Red Cross—actually met last week. In terms of the situation in Albania and Macedonia, NGOs are continuing to work in those two countries. We are doing all we can to support their efforts on the ground. I can confirm that the United States is one of the international donors who has given a significant amount of aid, not only to the UNHCR but also to other NGOs, to the Red Cross and to the World Food Programme.
Lord McNair: My Lords, does the Minister have any information about the conditions the refugees will find when the camps are set up? I refer specifically—I suspect this is probably premature—to what the conditions in terms of drinking water will be? I should declare an interest because I have a connection with a company that manufactures mobile water purification equipment.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, we are sending out an assessment and monitoring team on Sunday. They will
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be there for around five days. We have on stand-by a number of technical experts in the area of water, sanitation, health and so forth who can be sent out at very short notice. We are concerned that the situations in the camps do not lead to any further deterioration in terms of the health needs of the refugees.
Lord Ahmed: My Lords, what level of co-ordination has there been between the department of the noble Baroness, the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I can confirm to the House that there has been a significant amount of co-ordination and joint working between the FCO, the MoD and DflD. This co-ordination has been ongoing; it will continue. The assessment and monitoring team that is going out on Sunday is actually a joint team comprising the DflD and the MoD.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement. I have a certain amount of experience in NGO operations in the former Republic of Yugoslavia. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, touched on security of NGOs in Albania and the great dangers for them. Can the Minister say what extra physical security measures she is considering providing for NGO workers in Albania?
The Minister described DfID and UNHCR activity. Does the Minister agree that secondary distribution of aid is fraught with management challenges to avoid it going astray? Finally, does the Minister agree that, if the co-ordinated international appeal is unsuccessful, it could result in even more refugees flooding into Europe at great cost to European social security funds?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Earl asked me three questions. The first was in relation to the security of NGOs in Albania. I cannot actually give the noble Earl any details regarding plans which have been put in place for the physical security of NGO workers. However, I should be happy to talk to the noble Earl about this matter in more detail. If necessary, I should be happy to write to him and would of course place a copy of that letter in the Library of the House.
I agree with the noble Earl that there are significant challenges to all aid organisations that are working in the field of humanitarian assistance. There are huge logistical problems, there are geographical problems; indeed, numerous problems confront those organisations. However, these organisations have a considerable amount of experience and expertise. The Department for International Development has a great deal of knowledge and experience in this area. I am sure that we can rise to meet any of the kind of management challenges that the noble Earl has in mind. As regards the noble Earl's last question, I can tell him that we do not intend the co-ordination effort to be unsuccessful.

Design
5.11 p.m.
Lord Freyberg Lord Freyberg rose to call attention to the role of design in improving competitiveness and quality of life; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to introduce this afternoon's debate on the role of design in improving competitiveness and the quality of life. It is a crucial and yet often undervalued ingredient.
Design, innovation and creativity have the potential to bring great rewards both in the business world and in people's daily lives. While awareness of the importance of design is probably at an all time high in the United Kingdom, many industries have yet to recognise the importance of actually investing in it. Design has an increasingly important place in the country's business and social agenda. As Tony Blair put it in September 1997:
"It is time to show a fresh face to the world and reshape Britain as one of the 21st century's most forward-thinking and modern nations. I challenge companies to demonstrate that the UK can lead the world by creating products and services that exemplify our strengths in innovation, creativity and design".
As co-chairman of the recently formed All-Party Design and Innovation group, I have a particular interest in the potential applications of design and innovation. I have been on a steep learning curve discovering exactly how wide the design field is, and how it affects everything we use and see, from aeronautic engineering to the handle of a teacup. In between come a huge variety of other specialisations, from graphic design to architecture, ergonomics, computers, product design and fashion.
What constitutes innovation is equally broad and difficult to pin down. As the Economist's Survey of Innovation in Industry 1999 states, innovation
"is usually thought of as the creation of a better product or process. But it could just as easily be the substitution of a cheaper material in an existing product, for a better way of marketing, distributing or supporting a product or service".
What is undeniable is the fact that innovation is only possible if companies are prepared to invest in new ideas rather than resting on old laurels.
The Economist survey found that the best record of innovation was in organisations where innovation was pursued systematically rather than being left to chance. According to other surveys, the highest performing companies are those which constantly improve their products and services. A 1995 survey of engineering companies found that, while the average company had introduced just 3 per cent. of its product range within the past five years, the most successful 10 per cent. of companies had introduced 62 per cent. of their product range within the past five years.
Design is an integral part of every successful product and service development. Good design is also profitable. Recent research by the London Business School indicated that an extra 1 per cent. of turnover devoted to product development raises turnover and profits by 3 to 4 per cent. over five years.
It should be emphasised that design is most effective when used as part of a company's overall business strategy rather than an optional extra. Its impact can stretch beyond products, to reducing costs, saving time and effort, delivering innovation, ensuring safety, stimulating and motivating staff, simplifying complex tasks, achieving impact in a crowded market or justifying a premium price. For example, the redesign of the BT Phonebook saved £350,000 in printing costs, enough paper and ink to publish 706,818 copies of War and Peace, and enough aluminium to make 91,150 drink cans. Another field in which design has an important role to play is the environment: products can be designed to use up less energy and materials, thus making huge savings. For example the average weight of a yoghurt pot has fallen from 12 grams to 4 grams over the past 30 years.
It is, however, extremely difficult to spot innovation when it appears. Even in supposedly open-minded countries the hardest task for an inventor is not devising a new product or service but persuading a manager to take it on. The potential of a glue that failed to dry was only picked up when someone used it on bits of paper to mark hymns for a choir practice. Even then, these semi-sticky chits were themselves only turned into a product after a clever campaign to show their worth: the man who believed in them created pads of yellow reminder notes which he distributed among the company's secretaries, thus ensuring they were seen by senior management. When everyone was hooked on them he refused to supply any more until they were officially launched. Thus the hugely successful Post-It notes were born.
If their promoter had not been so persistent, it is unlikely that this enormously successful product would ever have got off the ground. The ability to recognise the potential of a new idea is, therefore, almost as important as the idea itself. Any strategy that can be put in place to recognise and encourage the development of innovation should be welcomed and promoted. You cannot guarantee a lucrative product but you can create the right environment for the germ of a good idea to be properly nurtured. Business needs to cultivate just such a creative milieu.
Another major reason for encouraging design and development with industry is in order to add value to a product. As Sir Terence Conran put it:
"It is about applying values through every stage of a product's development from conception through to retail. Design adds value by creating choice, but it will only work if combined with business sense".
Thus Philippe Starck's futuristic lemon squeezer, seen as hugely desirable and featured in every style magazine, was a runaway success in spite of being far more expensive than comparable—and some would say more effective—squeezers. Good design can be an excellent competitive tool.
Design is one of British industry's chief resources: we cannot compete in a global market in terms of raw materials, land or access to cheap labour, but we can

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draw on superior knowledge, skills and creativity. The previous Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, Peter Mandelson, claimed that design,
"enables companies to bring desirable new products and services to the global marketplace—it also influences how new products are conceived, made, used and disposed of. In the best companies, design is a central part of the strategic business process, managed with as much professionalism and rigour as marketing and finance".
In the past, Britain has been woefully inadequate at exploiting its own creative ideas. The Japanese Minister of International Trade and Industry found that over 40 per cent. of major discoveries in the past 50 years have come from the United Kingdom. The Daily Telegraph estimated that UK GNP is around £165 billion poorer than if UK inventions had been successfully exploited. As Peter Mandelson put it,
"We have talent and creativity galore. What we lack is sufficient capacity to turn our ideas into business, to turn those natural strengths into products and services that customers want to buy".
Britain must learn to exploit to the full the economic potential of the areas in which she leads the world. Car design is one important example. The heads of design at Peugeot, Citroen, Rover, Mazda and BMW all trained at the Royal College of Art in London, while the head of design at Volvo is British. Nine out of 10 Formula One cars are both designed and built in the UK. And crucially for the future, Porsche and Citroen recruit mainly from the Royal College of Art, which, along with Coventry University, provides the pre-eminent training in this field.
However, there is no cause for complacency even here. In the next few years Britain is likely to suffer a severe shortage of young engineers, while moves to lengthen the standard engineering degree course from three to four years may well deter students from choosing an engineering course. Another likely obstacle to engineering creativity is the technological illiteracy rife among managers.
Other signs are more encouraging. A 1998 survey by the Design Council discovered that the status of the value of design has risen most dramatically in schools and higher education along with large service businesses. The creative industries are making a huge impact on Britain's economic-generating revenues, approaching £60 billion a year. They contribute over 4 per cent. to the domestic economy and employ around one and a half million people. The design industry itself has been valued at £12 billion annually and employs 300,000 workers. The UK's design industry is riding high in the world. Exports by British design consultancies have risen from £175 million in 1987 to £385 million in 1997. It has been estimated that between now and 2006 the creative industries will he the fastest growing source of new jobs.
While the UK design industry has grown enormously in the past. decade, the use of design by other types of business has been slower and more uncertain. One of the UK's biggest problems is in persuading companies to invest in innovation. A 1996 study by IBM revealed that only 3 per cent. of UK companies have world-class design practice and performance, compared to 9 per cent. of German companies.
Innovation is inevitably unpredictable. While universities seem to understand this fact, governments tend to think of innovation as a pipeline, and to expect new technology and commercial applications in direct proportion to the amount of public money put into basic research. There is no guarantee that this will be the case; however money put into design is seldom wasted. Good design represents good value. As Mark Fisher stated when at the DCMS,
"Good design, be it in buildings or equipment, will endure and work well. The cheaper option is not always the best value for money. It may solve short-term options but will not always meet long-term ends".
Educationally Britain lags behind other European countries at GCSE and A-level, though degree level is roughly comparable. While the Government's current focus on literacy and numeracy is understandable, similar attention should be paid to the development of creative and design skills. After all, as Tony Blair has said many times,
"the future depends on our creativity".
The study of design subjects promotes such skills as problem solving, communication, teamwork and information technology—all of which make an important contribution to the workplace as it is now and the direction in which it is moving.
This is not to say that design is merely a teaching tool; instead it encourages a different way of looking at problems and possibilities, and can kindle a lifelong interest in the wider aspects of the subject from the function and appearance of cars and new technology to furniture. Design has a far greater application than business alone. Good design, from public buildings to beautiful clothes, gives enormous pleasure to everyone who encounters it. Ugly buildings depress people and attract vandals. Pleasant surroundings stimulate a positive response. Design is a democratic art form, usually applied to something practical, and preferably good to look at as well. Even a mass-produced object—from a Swiss army knife to a pair of Ray-bans to Duralex glasses—can be raised to iconic status by dint of its handsome, simple design. The more design literate the population becomes, the higher the standards of design will be.
We all respond to good design. It is an astounding and fascinating fact that, when some 17,000 London bus stops were redesigned in 1991 to make them more attractive and improve the clarity of the information they give, the increased bus use exceeded all expectations and rose by 7 per cent. It had previously been on a steady decline.
Businesses that neglect their design strategy are less likely to thrive in the future. It is essential that the Government are seen to set an example in this field., and I am encouraged to note that, besides publishing a White Paper yesterday on modernising government, a number of their departments are working in partnership with the Design Council to develop best practice in design management. The aim is to improve the cost effectiveness of all government departments and agencies through the more effective use of design. The Design Council is an energetic government-funded body whose current schemes include millennium products—

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highlighting some of the most clever and imaginative products in Britain to encourage British businesses to use innovation and design more effectively.
A country's reputation for creativity can contribute hugely to its economic achievements. I am firmly of the belief that good design is the key to maintaining the UK's position as a strong and competitive nation in a tough global market. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
5.26 p.m.
Lord Puttnam: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, on a remarkable speech and for bringing this matter to the attention of the House. His speech was so remarkable that I may rival the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, in his recently accredited record of making the shortest speech in this House for many years. The seat beside me is littered with everything I have written in the past couple of days, all of which we have just heard. However, I shall try to add a little to the debate, partly by way of definition.
It is said that in order to determine what duty should be levied on an artefact US Customs officials are instructed, "If you can use it, it isn't art". I suppose that today's debate relates to that which is not art. The noble Lord referred to the extraordinary statistic provided by the Japanese equivalent of the CBI; namely, that over 40 per cent.—some say the figure is as large as 56 per cent.—of all Japanese exports around the world since the end of the Second World War have been based on British innovation and British invention.
I argue that we are a remarkably inventive nation. It is the stages after that where things begin to go wrong. We are not innovative in terms of turning our inventions into products. We are even worse at applying those products to markets and we are quite lamentable at the process of product development, which I am afraid includes design. That is not to say that we do not have world class designers. In fact I would say that, pound for pound, our schools, universities and colleges of design in this country probably turn out a better product and more of them than any other nation in the world.
It is simply that British manufacturing still finds itself under the illusion that design is an extra, an afterthought, something that you do because you have to. That is quite strange because we went through that crisis about 140 years ago when Prince Albert and Henry Cole realised that British manufacturing supremacy was being rivalled by Germany in particular, and other countries in Europe, principally because they took design seriously. It was not that our products were not good but other countries were making products that were better designed and therefore more popular. That was one reason for the 1851 exhibition being brought to fruition. It also explains the genius behind the South Kensington collection of museums and colleges. It was a unique concept whereby the Victoria and Albert Museum lay side-by-side with the Royal College of Art and other similar institutions, all designed to sustain and invigorate Britain's competitiveness by way of design
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and product development. That is why I find it so strange, 140 years later, that we seem somehow to have lost the plot. However, I believe that we are beginning to realise what we have lost.
We will never again, certainly not in my lifetime, be a significant manufacturing nation. We have to learn to live by our wits and our talents and it is absolutely correct, as the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, said, that one of our talents lies in inventiveness and design. We now have to begin to apply those qualities to our own products and to the fruits of our workforce. That is the way forward. The noble Lord gave the House some statistics. They are staggering. The creative industries are a £60 billion business. In this country 173,000 people work directly within the design business. Those are large numbers. No longer will great factory gates crash open and men, and just a few women, walk through to large buildings of mass employment. It is a cruel delusion to think that there is any future for this nation in that area.
Our future lies in small, medium-sized and, if necessary, large design companies producing first-class products which are snapped up around the world. That is precisely the way in which the Italians, with far less to go on, have created a fairly vigorous economy for themselves. It is a design-based economy built around small businesses with a lively appreciation of the market place. We have to learn from the Italian example.
Many years ago John Ruskin said:
"The education of a young artist should always be a matter of the head and heart and hand".
I believe that that lesson has begun to sink in. For example, we at last have an Arts and Humanities Research Board which will support funding of research in the arts and humanities specifically including design. On 5th March its chairman, Paul Langford, announced its first round of grants. These covered some 300 awards totalling £4.6 million. So things are moving. The school curriculum, although it has yet to be published, will, I believe, recommend that art courses are redesignated art and design. Again that is a recognition of the value of design within the broad concept of art.
I have the privilege of chairing the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts. Our entire thrust will be excellence—finding excellence where we can and promoting it wherever and whenever we can. There is an awareness of the challenge and there is beginning to be a sense of optimism.
The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has done the nation a great favour by bringing this issue to your Lordships' attention. It will not go away. It will become a greater and greater component of our economy and therefore a greater and greater component of our lives and of our children's lives.
5.33 p.m.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, for bringing this issue before the House. I think that the only reason the debate is not better supported by noble Lords is that they are on the M.1, M.3 or wherever it may be. Before I speak on the subject perhaps I may declare an interest. I work

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for a company which is part of a North American group, Young & Ruhicam, which also has a design company in its orbit.
The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, is right to say that we cannot go backwards. We can only go forwards. I looked up the record of the last debate we had on design. The debate did not even last the dinner hour. So we are already moving forward.
It is always a pleasure to see the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, on the Front Bench. However, I have a feeling that that says something about the priority given to the subject within the Department of Trade and Industry. I have never noticed a shortage of DTI Ministers but there is not one present today. It is important that the subject should be loved by its own department. I hope that we will overcome that point too.
It is interesting that the Government did not bring together an integrated Front Bench on this subject. It is an integrated subject. 'The issue of design involves many government departments. It involves the Department of Health because disabled people are some of the most important users of good design. The quality of life of disabled people can be changed with appropriate help. It involves the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. Environmentalists identify the problems but they do not solve them. One needs designers to solve environmental problems. We have to work on that point and I know that the Design Council is conscious of it.
The noble Lord referred to transport. I find it interesting that there are some small cars around which were designed many years ago. A famous one is the Mini, which celebrates its 40th anniversary this year. I would not say that it is totally British. I do not think that Alec Issigonis can be claimed as a British name but the car did not need to have much spent on it still to be out there. A new Beetle is available. It is just about a brand-new car. However, the fact that the Mini is still going shows how good was the original design.
The Foreign Office must be involved with design. I found it strange going around Foreign Office embassies. There were wonderful paintings and settings but not a piece of Parnham-based furniture. Why are we not putting up our modern and competent designers in that situation? Where are our designers going? There was a stage when the only people who could afford a piece of John Makepeace furniture were overseas buyers.
Children are wonderfully creative. In any house that has four year-olds or five year-olds, the fridge, the freezer and the cooker are covered with brilliant and clear drawings. Although we turn out well-educated students, somewhere along the line we educate that clarity out of people. It is important that we keep that clarity in there.
The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, gave some figures. I should like to refer for a moment to commitment. I believe that design needs passion. It also needs individuals. A woman in Barnsley, Rita Britten, sells £500 dresses. That used to worry me. When I went to the DTI I asked for a visit to be arranged. I found that she sells the dresses on service. But she also sells them because she is committed to the area and to design. She
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is based near Grimethorpe, which had a colliery that was closed down. As I left, I was given the Grimethorpe appeal leaflet. But she also set up a design centre in Grimethorpe to give work to women who were married to the miners who lost their jobs at the colliery. Now her business takes her all over the world.
Another person who has brought his passion and standards to the design world is Paul Smith, who would have been a star anywhere. He still manages to retail—he has 75 shops in Japan—when every other retail market is going down. Peta Levi has had a tough time with the DTI. She runs new business designers. She has tried taking these youngsters over the world. The DTI has helped her by providing people "on loan", but never on a permanent enough basis to build. I would mention Conran—but one does not need to mention him; he will do it himself.
The point about Paul Smith and others is that they can move their products into mass production. I find it sad that even in our retail area here in the UK the mass production which allows design to enter the homes of most people is either Japanese—Muji, with its brown cardboard—or IKEA. We must help the design world to move into mass production. There are lovely things out there, but the chances of most people affording them are very slim. Creating aspiration without the ability to satisfy it is not the way to build an industry.
Noble Lords will not be surprised to learn that I am very pleased to praise the Design Council. I helped it in finding a chairman. It was interesting that the people who were initially brought forward were all engineers. The Design Council needs to be led by a charismatic person, as it now is. It must be kept away from bureaucracy. I am sure that no figures are available, but I should like to know how many civil servants have received a design education. I assure the noble Lord that if he produced the answer I should faint. The matter is important. If the effort goes into the paperwork, the results will not come through fast enough. There is at present a new stage, with the rural development associations entering the middle of the process distributing European money.
I do not know whether the noble Lord can offer welcome guidance on how devolution will operate in the design field. If we are to nurture people, we do not need to nurture a species in every part of the new UK. That will be interesting.
For me, design is something I enjoy and envy, something that I could not copy in a million years, and I know its value to industry. I am grateful to the noble Lord for providing the opportunity to debate this subject.
5.42 p.m.
Lord Newby: My Lords, I, too, wish to begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, for initiating this debate. It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Denton of Wakefield. I can say without fear of contradiction that today is the first time in British history that two former pupils of Rothwell Grammar School have made speeches consecutively from the Benches in this House. I hope that it is the first of many such opportunities.

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The importance of this subject lies in the fact that in the global market-place Britain can no longer hope to compete on price alone. That point was central to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg. The alternative is therefore clear. In order to create a competitive economy we must make better products for which people are prepared to pay a little extra. Design is absolutely key to achieving that. Britain must simply be as creative as, or more creative than, our European partners, Japan, the US, China and Korea. We must make better performing products that sell at a premium. Business must recognise design as a source of advantage and as integral to its success. The design function in business must be viewed as central to a business in the same way that marketing and sales are. I fear that that is still often not the case.
Design must be an identified and central part of all aspects of business strategy. That will require more investment in design R&D than our competitors provide if we are to be successful in international competition. The problem at present is that we are simply not doing that. Last year the worldwide increase in spending on R&D was 10 per cent. In the US, the world's most successful economy, the increase was 17 per cent. The UK only managed an increase of 5 per cent., which meant that we were 27th in the league table of net growth spenders on research and development. Frankly, that is not a satisfactory basis for the future development of our economy.
The challenge must therefore be to promote creativity and design at all levels. That must begin in schools. As the noble Baroness said, very young children are natural designers. One of the problems is that by the time children enter secondary school, in many schools design is not seen as intellectually and academically on a par with many other subjects. Many bright young people are rather pushed away from design towards subjects that are more traditionally academic. Frankly, many of those subjects, although they are typical leaders in the academic field, are often of precious little use to people in later life whereas design develops creativity and the concept of and ability for lateral thinking. It is therefore a central subject and should be seen within the educational world to be equally important to subjects such as physics, chemistry and biology. It will certainly be of more practical significance to young people than many of the more academic subjects they will study.
It is interesting to hear about the UK's success as design education centre. It is the largest such centre in Europe; 30 per cent. of Europe's design graduates are educated in the UK. All that one can say is that they are clearly not working here. They are either coming to the UK from elsewhere in Europe and other parts of the world because of the excellence of the education here and then returning to their country; or, in far too many cases, they are frustrated UK students who find that in order to acquire an outlet for their activity they have to work abroad.
Why are we not spending more on design as part of R&D? What should we be doing? In particular, what might we look to government to do? The macro-economic framework is the starting-point for
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investment in British industry, of which R&D is a part. This Government have placed tremendous emphasis on moving away from the boom-and-bust that has characterised post-war British economic performance. More than anything else, creating a macro-economic climate which gives business the confidence to invest is the single most important thing that government can do in this area.
There are many other areas where government clearly has a role to play. Government is a major purchaser. It is now beginning to promote good design. An example is the design of Inland Revenue forms. I am always amazed to see that the latest Inland Revenue form is thought to be a masterpiece of design. Perhaps it is, but it still quite hard to follow. However, I am sure that a huge amount of effort goes into that kind of activity.
At the other end of the scale, it also gives great satisfaction that the new parliament and assembly buildings being built in Scotland, Wales and London are not utilitarian. They are dramatic buildings. Not only will they be an addition to the public realm; they will send a signal to the communities in which they are based that design to a high standard is a matter by which the parliament and the assemblies set great store.
The Government also have a major role to play as a promoter of UK design within their overall role of promoting the UK. A poll of business last year showed that 90 per cent. of businesses surveyed said that a modern, creative image of Britain helped exports and helped to attract inward investment. Seventy per cent. thought that the Government could be doing more. I do not think one needs to go overboard on the concept of Cool Britannia to believe that the Government should be spending less time promoting Beefeaters and castles and rather more time promoting the Dyson vacuum cleaner and even the Dome. In that respect, the Millennium Products Initiative, launched about 18 months ago and run by the Design Council, and which has the enthusiastic support of the Prime Minister and the Government, is extremely valuable in demonstrating the Government's commitment to making the most of the best of British design.
The Government are in a plethora of ways a provider of funds and advice which can help the design process. They are a funder of the Design Council, which does tremendous work. But it is not just these national initiatives which will be important in changing attitudes about design. One of the things which the Government do, through the Design Council, is to fund design counsellors through the Business Links network. The role of Business Links in getting in at the grassroots level with a large number of small businesses could be very significant because it spreads good practice at all levels across the economy and does not simply concentrate on the biggest companies in the land.
The devolution of economic decision-making and economic development through the RDAs offers a chance for more of this kind of good practice to operate at regional level. I have been particularly impressed in this respect by an initiative which has been established in Yorkshire called the Yorkshire: European Region of Design Excellence. I am sure that when the noble

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Baroness was growing up in Wakefield, just as when I was growing up in Rothwell, "design" was not a word that was associated with that part of the country. Many other words were associated with West Yorkshire, but design did not feature among them. The noble Baroness talked about a dress designer. It is interesting that the part of the country in which she is based, Barnsley, and, in particular, Grimethorpe, was a place of huge musical creativity. Men who were brutalised in their working lives used their spare time to make some of the most beautiful brass-band music in the world. We now have the opportunity to encourage those same people and their sons and daughters to develop their lives through creative use of time.
The Yorkshire design initiative was launched in Leeds on a wet Friday evening in late January. It drew over 100 people to it, including the most senior representatives of the design industry and business more generally across Yorkshire. We were fortunate in having the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, newly in post, attend the meeting. I hope that the initiative may serve as a model elsewhere. It has brought people together to look at specific design initiatives, ranging from the possibility of setting up a centre for design excellence to practical matters such as a new design for a Yorkshire taxi. In doing so, it has brought a tangible focus to a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for design. By operating at a regional level rather than looking to the Government or the Design Council, it has released a lot of energy that would not otherwise have been brought to bear.
We have heard some discussion about the importance of design and related activities to GDP in this country. The notable feature about that is that while design-related activities generate 1.8 per cent. of GDP, they employ 1.2 per cent. of the workforce. The whole process of design has significantly higher productivity than the economy as a whole. That in itself demonstrates why it is so important as a driver of economic activity for the future.
I have concentrated on competitiveness rather than quality of life, but one only has to look at the history of public sector housing in this country and both the downside of bad design and now, with some of the housing associations, the upside of good design, to see how fundamental design is. Indeed, it permeates many aspects of human activity. Bad design is economically suicidal and depresses the human spirit. Good design. by contrast, can give us a competitive edge and enrich all our lives. Design is central to our economic and social welfare. I hope that this is an issue to which the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and the House as a whole will return at regular intervals.
5.55 p.m.
Lord Grenfell: My Lords, perhaps I too may say how grateful I am to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, for initiating this debate. I found his speech highly informative, very persuasive and, on the whole, very encouraging.
I suspect that one way of bringing a smile to the face of my noble friend the Minister who will respond to the debate is to quote George Bernard Shaw to him. He is
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a devotee of the great man, as I am, but he has the advantage over me that he actually met him. I thought that in honour of that I might begin my speech by giving a short quotation from The Doctor's Dilemma. It is the dying Louis's credo in the fourth act. He says:
"I believe in Michael Angelo, Velasquez, and Retnbrandt; in the might of design, the mystery of colour, the redemption of all things by Beauty everlasting, and the message of Art that has made these hands blessed. Amen. Amen".
I note those words "the might of design", and I would add my own, third Amen.
Theatre and design have gone hand in hand for a very long time. The relationship has sometimes been quite unusual. Among the first of the American industrial designers were quite a number who had a theatre background. I think in particular of Norman Bel Geddes, who was first a producer of plays and opera. He moved on to theatre design and then to designing typewriters, refrigerators, radios and even stoves.
Men like Bel Geddes and others from the worlds of theatre and advertising, such as Walter Dorwin Teague and Raymond Loewy, combined the skills of businessmen with their gifts as artists to play a vital role as industrial designers in ensuring that many of the large corporations survived the Depression of the 1930s.
When I speak in your Lordships' House, it is usually on economic subjects. The relationship between design and economics has always held a certain fascination for me, so I do not feel that I am trespassing too much on the terrain of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, if I say something about that today. I shall take just two examples.
The post-war economic miracles in West Germany and Italy owed an enormous amount to design. As noble Lords will recall, economic recovery in Germany in the immediate post-war years was pretty slow off the mark, but, with the boost given to it by the Marshall Plan, German production had reached pre-war levels by 1950 and the Wirtschaftswunder, the German economic miracle, was then up and running. From then on" America influenced not only West German production processes but also product design. I intend no denigration to the German designers of that period when I say that the Opel Kadetts of the 1950s were little more than replicas of American cars. What was crucial and important to Germany's economic future was that the government of that time saw industrial design as a key factor in economic regeneration.
By 1952 the Ministry of Economics had set up a design council and established professorships in industrial design and technical universities. It is interesting and instructive to recall that it was after hearing a lecture on the links between art and industry that the brothers Artur and Erwin Braun took a fresh look at their firm's design policy. They employed top design consultants and the rest was design history. Their functional, monochromatic products, usually in white, grey or black, epitomised by its mechanical products such as electric shavers, calculators and clocks soon became globally famous. It was also extremely helpful to the German economy.

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Another example is Italy. In the aftermath of the war Italy received much less aid from the United States but, like Germany, it was influenced by American culture, particularly its functionalism and rationalism in design. That predominated in Italian industrial design as the economy modernised in the first five years after the Second World War. Its portable typewriters became world famous as did those quintessential expressions of youthful modernism (if I may so put it), the Lambretta and the Vespa. The Italian consumer boom of the 1950s was boosted by the discoveries of oil and gas and the chemical and plastic industries, the latter providing a very rich field for Italian designers, such as Ettori Sottsass who designed the famous red plastic Valentine typewriter. Italy's post-war economy benefited hugely from the talent of its designers. That is the point that I really want to make.
I make this brief excursion into the post-war economic history of these two countries solely to emphasise the essential link between design and competitiveness and quality of life and to show that they are not new and can have huge economic consequences. Since the 1980s design has become an increasingly important part of daily life in this country. Perhaps we have tended to overuse the word "designer'. with our constant reference to designer jeans, designer vacuum cleaners and even designer stubble. But they are now all part of our lives and "designer" has passed into everyday language.
But it seems to a layman in these matters like myself that we are now redefining design after the conspicuous consumption of the 1980s and now see it more as a tool for improving the quality of life, not least as an expression of our environmental concerns, with (dare I say) a more muted appeal to our strictly aesthetic senses. Others will make more expert judgment on that matter than I do.
I return to the economic dimension. The briefing produced by the Design Council provides some impressive and encouraging statistics, of which the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, gave us some highlights. I should like to cite just a few that particularly caught my eye. As the noble Lord pointed out, across the British economy as a whole expenditure on design and related activities is estimated at over £12 billion annually, which is equivalent to 1.8 per cent. of UK GDP. That is very impressive. It is also pointed out:
"Design contributes directly to the UK balance of payments, with some 70 per cent. of UK design businesses active in overseas markets … Sectors that invest heavily in product development and design—such as mechanical engineering, aerospace and chemicals—are also those in which the UK has a trade surplus".
There is also the employment factor, to which the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, referred. In total 173,000 people are employed in support of design and product development within British industry. Further, 20,000 people in the UK work in design consultancies. That is very impressive. But then the following caught my eye:
"Provision of design services is dominated by small and medium-sized enterprises—there are around 4,000 design consultancies in the UK. However, the value is heavily concentrated in the biggest firms—the largest 100 accounting for 75 per cent. of the industry's turnover".
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This caused me to ask myself a question (which needless to say I could not answer): is this an indicator of under-financing in many small and medium-sized enterprises? Is there a desire there to invest more in design capability which is frustrated by capital restraints? I believe that this was also a matter in the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Newby.
I am a very great believer in small and medium-sized enterprises. As the Design Council itself said:
"Small and medium-sized enterprises … are a critical part of the UK economy. According to the Design Council, research awareness among SME managers of the importance of design is growing. Between 1997 and 1998 the number of small manufacturers climbed from 44 per cent. to 62 per cent.".
But I ask whether that awareness is matched by an ability to fund access to high quality design capabilities. I do not know and I should very much like to know. Perhaps my noble friend the Minister shares my hope that the recently announced help for small companies in the form of the new 10 per cent. starting rate of corporation tax will encourage more investment in design by small manufacturers. Perhaps the Chancellor's extension earlier this month of first-year allowances for small and medium-sized businesses investing in machinery and plant will free up resources, some of which may be devoted to more investment in design. Maybe serial entrepreneurs can help through their investment in Enterprise Investment Scheme companies. I just wonder whether these types of recent government initiatives in favour of small and medium-sized enterprises could lead directly or indirectly to a greater level of investment in design. I certainly hope so.
As the Design Council informs us,
"Among smaller manufacturers, perhaps perceived as less likely to exploit the potential of design than their larger competitors, those describing design as essential climbed from 44 per cent. to 62 per cent. over the year".
They describe it as essential, but do they have the means to put that into effect? I suspect that for many finance is a constraint. I leave noble Lords therefore with the thought that if there is such a constraint we need to find ways to facilitate a higher level of investment. Design is far too important to our economy to have it left underfunded.
6.7 p.m.
Lord Hankey: My Lords, if I slur my words it is because yesterday morning I returned from China and this morning I went to bed at 4 o'clock. My jaw drops and my eyelids close. Please sit me down quietly. I have been in China to look at two provinces: Sichuan and Chongqing. They hold a fascinating lesson. They are changing their institutional policies. We are helping them to promote good design and environmental planning, tourism, trade, good management and the integration of services—all to achieve economic sustainability. Chongqing includes the Three Gorges Dam area and planning for the future of minority cultures. The resettlement of some 1.2 million people is being done by the Chinese themselves. Vast engineering works have been carried out to consolidate the new 150 foot high change in water level.

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Having seen China grow over the past 10 years I am fascinated by the fact that they have learnt the lesson of the importance of the design process in responding to function requirements and the need for multi-sectoral co-operation. In projects and products both large and small they are learning how to plan for economic business success. It is very difficult to try to teach them about the market. Assessing market revenues and the limits of affordability are also matters that are just on the fringe of what they are learning to do. The difficulty that we have in introducing design and management initiatives in a totalitarian and relatively closed society, where middle management fears to take the initiative, is also a fascinating challenge.
I am very concerned by the growing power and ability of China, with one quarter of the world's population, to be extraordinarily competitive to what we are trying to do here and our long-term sustainability. I am concerned about the great competition our economies of western Europe are going to have in the next 50 years. Here in Europe I maintain that our safety will be in our innovation, integrity of service and in quality of design if we are to compete with the reinvigorated and possibly fiery dragons.
I came back through the new Hong Kong airport. I was totally fascinated. It is a British product, with a pure economy of concept; grandly impressive and human in scale. It is a wonderful advertisement for the United Kingdom and its humanity held through the ordering of its hierarchy of spaces. It has wonderfully strong detail and appropriate originality and innovation—all of the principles advocated in the Design Council brief. Like a good human perhaps, the design is not excessive in any of its traits, but it is attractive in its quality and considerate towards the function it provides.
As I understand it, Britain has few natural products. We pay for our standard of living through the ingenuity and innovation of our goods and services; through our knowledge and our abilities in applying both knowledge and craft skills; and in the excellence of our design. I believe that Britain's future is going to depend more and more on our competitiveness with such dragons as I have described.
I believe that design relates not only to the physical product, but also to the means of managing the process of manufacture and delivery. Consultant designers, like politicians—they do not think of themselves as designers, but they are some of the most important designers that we have—and many other classes of people are so often good at defining the objectives, as I have seen among engineers in cities like Ningbo in China, but they are weaker at understanding the management requirements for implementation, as the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, correctly said.
The mistakes that we can see in development situations relate to the lack of management abilities of all the many factors to be considered at the larger scale of project. The small object is easier for an individual to understand, but the individual's ability to relate to the management and teamwork required of a larger project is very demanding. Ultimately, design is for the human being. The ability of the design to reflect human values is often the critical factor in its success.
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I would like to expand on that idea. In industry the human value of a worker in its mass production process is extraordinarily important. I believe that the humanity in our planning and development of urban areas are all ultimately more important than the simple and more obvious functional operation of the urban infrastructure. The urban task force, led by the great architect, the noble Lord, Lord Rogers of Riverside, made a useful start in a most complex quest to increase density for good economic reasons, but also to improve the quality of human life.
I believe that there are strong but very hard to measure relationships between the quality of the environment and the levels of crime and alienation caused by the dissatisfaction felt by the residents and workers in a poor quality environment. We have examples of estates such as those in Manchester arid others in Glasgow and Sheffield which have had to be demolished through the ill-considered understanding of the human factors involved when they were created.
I believe that there is a common discipline between the design of the physical world and the creativity needed to design, implement and motivate the new political and social world. Human values underpin all reason for the respect, development and retention of our existing physical environment. So, I believe, those same human values are essential parts of our work in the politics and planning of social and institutional improvements. However, like great planning and engineering projects, proposals for institutional change are often not designed with respect for the inclusive and consultative consensus building that good design should accommodate. In my opinion, policy which is not inclusive sets up opposition among alienated stakeholders.
I believe that we have witnessed the arbitrary nature of change without design proposals in your Lordships' House over the past two days. Good design with adequate respect and the promotion of trust in the human dimension is vital to the quality of both the physical world as well as to the social and political world within the United Kingdom.
I believe that the humanity of our design considerations also applies to the international world where trust, respect for cultural difference and the design of good policy and trusting trading relationships are the core for the United Kingdom's future trading and the prosperity of our children. I suggest that there is a strong relationship between this creativity and orderly thinking; of good design in the physical world and the innovative and detailed considerations that must underwrite the success of human relationships both within the United Kingdom and abroad.
The noble Baroness, Lady Denton of Wakefield, said that design is an integrated subject. I believe that that is absolutely correct. The danger of our thinking both as sponsors and designers for change and novelty is that we often take a narrow and sectoral view of our roles in life in the design of systems of government, the Greater London Authority, the devolution of regions and the construction of the past

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as new environments. The human values are often subordinated to the machine, the engineering and the tangible factors or the political ideal.
I am encouraged by the DTI's Creative Industries Export Promotion Advisory Group (CIEPAG) bringing together different departments of government. It can help in the co-ordination and marketing of UK Limited abroad. That is a very essential service especially with the growth in the SMEs, the small and medium-sized enterprises of the United Kingdom. That involves the design of communications between the SMEs of the United Kingdom and the international markets.
I believe that good design requires a holistic approach to the problems of the living and working environment. It is responsible for the success of trade, tourism and, above all, for user satisfaction that all over the world is increasingly intellectual and selective under the influence of television and other forms of media.
I believe that the message is quite clear. We must stay ahead with our education. We must invest in understanding the generalities as well as the particularities of design both for joined-up government and for joined-up private and public sectors. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, as I hope the whole House will, for bringing this fundamental subject to your Lordships' attention.
6.20 p.m.
Lord Hughes: My Lords, when I read the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, I was so interested that I made certain that I should be present to hear his speech. I am glad that I did so. I have seldom heard so much interesting, useful information crammed into such a short period of time. I thank him for that. It is because of that that I am persuaded to break my usual habit over recent years of being a listener rather than a speaker.
I am old enough to remember the days when Japanese manufacturers were accused of being innovators of nothing but masters of copying other people's work. The accusation was that they worked so well on that aspect that they included in their production any fault in the original material. I do not know whether there was any truth in that allegation but, if so, that factor has disappeared over the past 40 years.
The Japanese have shown that they are masters of innovation. But they have done better: they have also made certain that they took advantage of their innovations. We have seen that in so many fields—electronics, the car industry, watch making, calculators, and so on. In this country, we would have been much better off if our manufacturers, in particular the small manufacturers, had had the initiative to follow up their innovative idea by production of it.
It may well be, as the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, said, that the answer is that small manufacturers do not have the necessary support to follow up ideas they have produced. The result is that wonderful ideas which have begun in this country have not been developed here but abroad. I do not know the extent to which industry listens to
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anything said in your Lordships' House. However, I suggest that it would do industry no harm to read the speech made today by the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg.
6.22 p.m.
Lord McNally: My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, began his speech, I thought that he was going to be an example of the Lord who dreamt that he was making a speech in the House of Lords and woke up to find that he was. I can assure the noble Lord that he stayed awake, and so did we.
There was dangerous talk from the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. He said that he had torn up half his speech because his remarks had already been made. If that kind of thing carries on, this place will grind to a halt!
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, on this last debate before Easter, turning the eyes of the House outwards after a couple of days of contemplating our own navels. A number of my friends have queried why I am speaking in the debate since I am not noted as a dedicated follower of fashion. Part of the reason is that I have had what American management experts now call a portfolio career. I served in the early 1980s on the Select Committee on Trade and Industry. Even then we undertook a study about competitiveness and the factors that damage British competitiveness. Since then I have worked for an electronics trade association, a management quality certification company and, like the noble Baroness, Lady Denton, for an American conglomerate with a design capability—although not the same one.
I draw from those experiences to talk mainly about manufacture. I take slight issue with the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. He said that we will never again be a significant manufacturing nation. It is too easy and very dangerous to write off our manufacturing base. That was part of the silliness of the 1980s when, as far as I could see, the theory was that the financial services industry and theme parks would be enough of a base for this country. It was a foolishness warned against with great eloquence, I recall, by John Harvey-Jones in a Dimbleby lecture over 10 years ago.
We need a manufacturing sector; and we need the policies to back it up. But change has occurred. We are no longer an industry of muck or even brass. We are more and more dependent on our small and medium-sized enterprises. The noble Lords, Lord Grenfell and Lord Hughes, made vital points which I hope the Minister will convey to the DTI about the importance of helping small and medium-sized enterprises export innovation by access to good design.
As the figures quoted demonstrate, the problem has not been a lack of ideas in Britain over the past 50 years but a skill in taking those ideas to market. Globalisation and technological change offer us a second, third or even fourth chance. We can still catch up with the best if we get our policies right. Again I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hughes. I belong to the generation who remember jokes about shoddy and imitative Japanese products, and who saw those products become a benchmark for quality and design.

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Broadly, the priorities of the Government since they came to office are right. They include rights to give priority to education; to invest in technology; and the encouragement of productivity. Britain's future lies in a high skill, high tech, high productivity and high value added economy—a so-called skill-based society. But if we know that, so do others, and they will follow a similar strategy.
So what will be the X factor? I believe that it will be quality and design. I am told that Japanese companies spend twice as long at the product design stage compared with comparable western companies. There are real benefits in investment in design for manufacturers. Assessments can be made of the environmental impact—it is of growing importance—safety implications, product liability, matching performance requirements, risk analysis and the guarantee of overall quality.
That quality and design approach to manufacture has tangible benefits for both manufacturer and consumer. Early identification of manufacturing/service problems reduces the cost of wasted time, effort and materials during production and service. It is estimated that the cost of poor quality is 10 times greater at the end of a process than at the beginning. There is the greater likelihood of completion of projects on time. With effective planning and a clear view of the project milestones and timescales, management can be more in control of progress with early identification of any potential problems that may affect the life of the project.
Design and quality control offer more effective cost control. Estimates are increasingly more important for the viability of commencing any project. Finally, there is customer satisfaction. The end result of all the work and input must result in that.
I mentioned my background in consumer electronics. We are on the verge of what has been described as the digital revolution. That offers a multi-million pound opportunity for Britain as we produce the products to meet the interactive, multi-choice broadcasting age. It is interesting to note that the manufacturing capacity for that is in the UK and much of the research and development has been carried our here.
The digital revolution will be driven by programme quality—and I hope it will not be 200 channels with the best being "I Love Lucy"—reception quality, which is of importance to the Minister, and design. We recently debated digital radio and the Minister may be interested to learn that four British manufacturers are now committed to producing digital radio. Therefore, there is manufacturing and research capacity and design talent. There is also an opportunity for Britain to manufacture and export goods.
However, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Denton, that we shall need joined-up government. As my noble friend Lord Newby said, that means a new status for designers and engineers. It means a creative use by the Government of their own procurement capability. As a number of speakers have said, it means design as an integral part of our education.
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In this millennium year, the great Dome should be used as a showcase for British design. Lottery funds should be used to promote design criteria. Yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, came to St. Albans, the city in which I live, to open an extension to our museum built on the basis of lottery money. The very design of that building has lifted the spirit of the city. The same exhibits are on show inside, but a new shape has been given to the museum. The number of schoolchildren who visit has increased incredibly. That is one example of the good use of lottery funds to produce good design. Perhaps I may pay tribute to the Design Council and its millennium products initiative. As a professional in this field, I thought its brief was a model of its kind for a parliamentary debate.
The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, mentioned the V&A. Part of my briefing for the debate were V&A notes. The noble Lord gave us a timely reminder of the vision of Henry Cole and the 19th century museum creators. They bequeathed a great legacy in the use of design in museums. Due to time constraint, I will not go through the V&A's programme, but it is entirely contemporary and encourages designers, particularly young ones. In addition to inventing the new, we should appreciate what we already have as a basis for encouraging design within our society.
Design can capture the spirit of an age. Government are not there to back winners; that is for the entrepreneurs. But they can create the climate in which enterprise, creativity and quality can flourish. As the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, indicated, they can do so by the way in which they manage the economy, the way in which they regulate and use their powers of procurement and persuasion. They must not endorse the tacky and ephemeral—perhaps some Downing Street guest lists could be examined in that regard.
The talent exists. The mistakes of the past have been identified. The millennium is a time to celebrate our national talent for creativity and to recognise our designers as major contributors both to our economic success and our quality of life.
6.34 p.m.
Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, on raising this exciting and important subject today. It was a delight to listen to his speech and I wish him well with his all-party group, which I am sure is in good hands. It has been a privilege to listen to noble Lords bringing their own specialist knowledge to the debate, and the enthusiasm evident in all the contributions has been most infectious.
Design is one of Britain's comparative national advantages. Britain enjoys a £12 billion design industry, which is large by world standards. Design is essentially a creative activity that covers a wide range of industries. Fortunately, creativity is a trait at which the British excel, as the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, informed the House.
Design is of particular current relevance because of the strain that exporting British manufacturers are experiencing. At a time when they are shedding staff,

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the trade deficit is widening and people are moving business offshore to avoid the strong pound and increasing tax and social burdens, British design remains a hope for the future. That is particularly so for small business, as outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes.
What do we mean by design? It covers a broad range of activities. It is not easy to separate it from the rest of the economy. But in the wise words of Walsh, Roy, Bruce and Potter in 1992, the common link is the creative visualisation through plans, ideas sketches aimed at,
"providing the instructions for making something that did not exist before, or did not exist in that form".
So design comes in the form of some wildly varying fields: experimental design; design engineering; fashion design; production design; interior design; graphic design; and so forth. They all have in common the creative flair to make something better. Fortunately for Britain, creative flair is one of our advantages.
I was intrigued to read that in 1996 the Economist quoted an estimate by Holland's Design Institute that £4 billion was spent on graphic design across the whole of the European Union. Britain alone spends three times that amount. We see examples of British design excellence. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, mentioned the digital age. At home, we have one of the new digital boxes. My son, who is very interested in design, asked me to look at the design of the remote control. Compared with the old television and video remote controls, the design was so exciting and pleasing to the eye.
The potential benefits of these developments are enormous. Vehicles designed by British consultants are in production in Europe, North America and Asia. While the rest of British car manufacturing is suffering under the burden of the strong pound and increasing tax and social burdens, General Motors recently made the decision to give greater independence to its British design team, allowing it to expand and sell its services to other companies.
Glasgow has secured this year's UK city of design and architecture. A recent survey undertaken by the Glasgow Design Initiative showed that industry in Glasgow now includes more than 500 design consultancies, sustaining 5,000 jobs with a turnover of £225 million.
Across the UK economy, design employs more than 300,000 people in both consultancies and manufacturing. The Design Council estimates that a 1 per cent. increase in turnover devoted to design in manufacturing would raise manufacturing growth by 0.7 per cent.
In many ways, the increasing impact of design represents a shift away from the heavy industries which followed the war. The industries of the German and Japanese post-war economic miracles were based on heavy industry, heavy engineering and production excellence in mid-technology products such as cars, chemicals, engineering and metal.
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Many of today's leading companies depend not on heavy industrial investment but on intellectual capital and IT networks of which design is such a crucial part. How things change. In 1948, there were 900,000 miners and 100 people in the computer industry. Today there are fewer than 10,000 miners and 2 million people in the computer industry and hundreds of thousands in the design industry.
I was intrigued to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about the importance of design for children's development. It is sad to see that many take their talents abroad so that we lose them. But the new jobs are for network engineers, website designers and writers of interactive programmes. Those are creative professions in which design principles are crucial.
Design tends to be an outward-looking, export-orientated activity. The Design Council estimates that design makes up one-quarter of overseas earnings and it has been shown that sectors which invest more heavily in design tend to sell a greater proportion of their output in export markets. It was fascinating to hear of the visit by the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, to China, and what he had to tell us.
Design-intensive industries such as aerospace, mechanical engineering and chemicals are areas in which the UK still has a trade surplus. At a time when last month's trade deficit was the highest on record and many firms are being squeezed by the strength of the pound, that is a sector of exporting which cannot and must not be ignored.
But design is vulnerable to the strength of the pound. One of the most important things the Government can do to help export-orientated designers is to ease pressure on interest rates in order to restore our currency to a more realistic level. The level of the pound has been of particular concern to the fashion industry whose manufacturing bases are forced increasingly to go overseas. As the director-general of the British Apparel and Textile Confederation said last August:
"The strength of sterling is causing considerable pain and there will be more closures and lay-offs. Exporters that had built markets in Asia are suffering a double whammy, and they can't easily turn to the domestic market because High Street sales are flat. You cannot replace those markets overnight".
It is extremely difficult to measure with any precision the impact of design on economic growth. Apart from the fact that design of itself is difficult to measure, being so integrated with manufacturing, fashion and other sectors of the economy it also happens in the context of the economy as a whole. Different elements of the design process will almost certainly have some influence over economic growth and trade performance.
It is clear that design has a major role both in manufacturing and consultancies. British manufacturing spends an estimated £10 billion on product development and design, making up 2.6 per cent. of manufacturing turnover. Design and manufacturing is responsible for the employment of 172,000 people which is about 4.5 per cent. of the workforce. Our aerospace and motor vehicles industries are world leaders.
The quality of life has been mentioned and is very important, as illustrated by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. Design has other unmeasurable benefits in

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relation to what we call quality of life. That area is improved by an increase in attractively designed and easy-to-use products. That aspect of design cannot be measured by economists. It often comes down to aesthetics and subjective judgments. But it may mean also that consumers are able to do something with a product which had previously been unimaginable and, just as important, design creates employment in a field where creativity is a prime virtue. Job satisfaction is likely to be higher in a field where a person can see his creative imprint on the final product.
I feel upbeat but not complacent about the future. By allowing people to make products differently and better, design is undoubtedly one of the best ways in which British industry can add value and compete internationally. We are already world leaders in many areas of design. In order to allow it to flourish into the future, we must have an economy which encourages small and flexible firms to compete internationally. We must not fetter them with too many regulations and tax burdens. If we expect them to trade internationally, we must ensure that the exchange rate does not penalise them. We have had some excellent contributions, all pointing to the growing importance of design in all our lives and of course in the life of our country. I am sure that we shall soon revisit this subject.
7.45 p.m.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, it is only right that I should start by saying a few words to the noble Baroness, Lady Denton, in relation to my being here and not, as she said, a DTI Minister. I must confess to her that when the matter arose at the DTI parliamentary meeting, I begged to be allowed to respond to this debate.
I do that both for public policy reasons and for personal reasons. Fundamentally, the public policy reason is that I speak also for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport which is very heavily involved in design matters together with the DTI and other departments. In the Department of Culture, we have carried out the first comprehensive mapping of the cultural industries in this country. That has been a difficult but pioneering project. It is a huge element of the British economy and the cultural industries taskforce is continuing its work.
But there is also the Design Council's initiative, referred to originally by the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, to ensure that government procurement itself is design conscious and that we recognise the need for best practice in design management in government itself. After all, the Government are buying £24 billion worth of goods and services every year. That initiative involved originally the Department of Culture, Media and Sport, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for Education and Employment and the DTI. But, as the noble Baroness rightly recognised, there are other departments. She mentioned the Department of Health which has a strong interest. I have
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no doubt that that department will be joining in that project in times to come.
The other more personal reason that I wanted to take part in the debate is that I share the passion which the noble Baroness, Lady Denton, has evidenced in design, although I do not share her expertise. My noble friend Lord Puttnam referred to the 1851 exhibition and he and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred to the work of the V&A and the South Kensington complex which followed the 1851 exhibition.
I am old enough to remember as an 18 year-old the 1951 exhibition. That was certainly the occasion when my eyes were opened to the wonder of design. I remember the Skylon designed by Powell and Moya, and the Dome of Discovery, a small predecessor of our millennium dome, designed by Ralph Tubbs. I remember the Ernest Race antelope chair which was a steel and plywood chair used in all the outside cafés and restaurants on the South Bank. We must not forget typography. Gordon Cullen, who was later a friend of mine, was responsible for all the external lettering of the South Bank part of the 1951 exhibition. I see from the Design Council reports at the time that his chosen typeface—a "square serif egyptian"—was considered better than the characterless Gill which might have been the alternative. I am not sure we would say that about Gill type-faces 48 years later.
I have a personal memory of one of the first concerts at the Festival Hall with Stokowski in May 1951. But it was not just the South Bank; it was also in the Battersea pleasure gardens, in the Lansbury neighbourhood in Poplar, and exhibitions and events all over the country. Those of us who remember them have added reasons to look forward to what is going to happen in millennium year, not least for design, because, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, would wish it to be, design is a very heavy and vital element not just in the Millennium Dome but in all the other millennium projects which are going to be unveiled around the country during the next 18 months.
The motto for the 1951 Exhibition was, in the words of Herbert Morrison, to celebrate the British contribution to civilisation in the arts, in science and technology and in industrial design. We probably would not use the phrase "industrial design" now but it is a perfectly good motto to be using 48 or 49 years later.
I have not yet paid tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, for introducing this debate, but everybody who has taken part seems to me to have widened our horizons and to have made this a quite remarkable display not just of expertise but also of enthusiasm. I think it is true to say that the Government agree with the consensus which I have sensed around the Chamber today that design must be at the heart of our economy and of our society. It is not just a thing that happens to create a pleasant appearance after the research and development process has been completed; it is a continuing process, as your Lordships have said, from the idea to the product, through the process and then to

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the user, the purchaser and the marketplace. The examples that have been given have been enormously valuable and I am very grateful for them.
I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, with his example of digital radio, that maybe the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, can afford these but before many people can have access to them they, first, had better bring down the price below £800. Of course the quality of life aspect of this Motion is important too. It is important for worthy reasons and for aesthetic reasons. The worthy reasons include a sustainable environment and that can mean, as has been said, providing cheaper and less damaging materials rather than changing the appearance. One can use materials that last a lifetime rather than fading away after a limited period of time. There can be design for lower energy use and also for waste minimisation.
My noble friend Lord Grenfell seemed to think that there could be a conflict between those worthy objectives and the sheer pleasure which we all look to get from good design. I do not think that there is a conflict: the two can very well go hand in hand. If they do, then I think we achieve what the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, rightly called Schumann values in design.
I turn now to the economic issues which were referred to by, among others, the noble Lords, Lord Newby and Lord Grenfell. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for virtually quoting from the Treasury weekly economic briefs, when he said that we need a macro-economic climate which gives business the confidence to invest. That of course is exactly what the Chancellor has been saying and doing for nearly two years. His most recent Budget, as the noble Lord knows, provided further tax breaks for research and development, particularly in smaller firms.
It is very difficult, if not impossible, to identify design as an item in an income and expenditure account, just as it is very difficult to identify design in a creative industry's taskforce mapping exercise. However, I think we know it when we feel it, if you see what I mean, and I think the Chancellor is directing his attention in that way to ensure that there is investment in research and development, which in turn will mean investment in design. And when that is coupled with the ongoing reductions in corporation tax, I hope that your Lordships will feel that the Treasury, at any rate, is doing its share in encouraging a climate in industry in which design can flourish.
Of course it is not just the Treasury which has responsibilities. The Department of Trade and Industry is the grant-giving body to the Design Council whose excellent briefing has surfaced—shall I say?—in a number of speeches today. The Design Council, as has been said—I do not need to repeat elements from the briefing—is deeply involved in national partnerships with the CBI, with the British Quality Foundation, with the curriculum authorities and, locally, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, with Business Links, nearly
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all of whom now have design counsellors as well as marketing counsellors.
Other government departments are involved with the school curriculum where, as my noble friend Lord Puttnam said, there is good hope that art (including design) will be given a more formal place in the national curriculum. There is also the role of the Design Council in Millennium Projects which the Prime Minister launched in September 1997, in the speech which the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, quoted. Four hundred and thirty three products have already been designated under the Millennium Projects Initiative, and there will be more later this year; rather similar to the stock list, which was the basis for admission to the pavilions in the 1951 Exhibition. Certainly I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that they will feature in the Dome. They are of course already being exhibited overseas, and will continue to be exhibited.
He spoke about lottery money and I was glad to hear about the Verulanium Museum and also to hear of my noble friend's part in its opening. That is being repeated in dozens of places all over the country and with all these openings and new projects there are new opportunities for design. My noble friend Lord Puttnam is also responsible of course for the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts. That has a very great part to play in that most difficult issue identified by many speakers of how to make progress from an idea to something which is actually marketable. NESTA is based in part on the idea that venture capital markets have not proved themselves to be sufficient for that purpose. For that reason, confirmed by the very welcome intervention of my noble friend Lord Hughes, NESTA has its part to play in what we all wish for and what has been expressed in this debate.
I should now like to respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Denton. First of all, on devolution, the Design Council will of course remain a body covering the whole of the United Kingdom but it will be working closely with Scottish Design, Welsh Design, the Advisory Service and the Design Directorate in Northern Ireland. Of course, where they overlap with education, education is a devolved responsibility.
The noble Baroness asked about new designers in business. I can confirm that Miss Peta Levi continues to receive support from the department and help towards running costs and to exhibit overseas.
As many noble Lords said, design is one of our great strengths. I am not sure that I believe some of the figures about the size of the industry that were produced, for the reason I have already indicated. It is certainly true that the industry is enormously important both in terms of turnover and employment. Of course, it is important internationally and it contributes to our overseas trade balance. The Department of Trade and Industry and other government departments do everything they can to encourage exporters to make use of design capabilities that exist in this country and can assist in our export drive.
I do not know how many civil servants there are with design qualifications, but with 62,000 design students

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in 119 universities and colleges it is a fair bet that a considerable number will, in one way or another, enter public service.
I have found the figures I was looking for. The turnover of the creative industries is £60 billion and there are 1.4 million people employed in such industries.
I have reached the end of the recommended time. I reiterate my thanks and the thanks of the Government to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, who instigated the debate. I want to conclude with the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe. Like her, I believe that the Government are upbeat but not complacent about design.
7.1 p.m.
Lord Freyberg: My Lords, I want to thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. We have had a wide-ranging and thought-provoking discussion. I especially want to thank the Minister for his helpful reply. I look forward to reading it in Hansard. In particular, I want to thank the noble Lord,
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Lord Hughes, for his kind words and for breaking his own rule of not speaking in the gap. In the meantime, I wish all noble Lords a happy Easter. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

Adjournment
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, in moving that the House do now adjourn, may I echo the wishes of the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, that all noble Lords present and those not present have a rejuvenating Easter period. I also thank all our staff, who have had a particularly taxing week, not least those who produce Hansard. They are not seen as clearly by us now, but they too have had a taxing week.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned for the Easter Recess at three minutes past seven o'clock until Monday 12th April next.