HL Deb 22 July 1999 vol 604 cc1174-83

6.4 p.m.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. I was tempted to say that we now move to calmer waters, but one can never make that kind of rash judgment about matters before your Lordships' House.

The main item in the Procedure Committee's Fourth Report concerns the format of the statute law. A working group of officials, chaired by the Clerk Assistant of the House, has made recommendations for a new look for Bills and Acts of Parliament. I am pleased to say that your Lordships' Procedure Committee and the Modernisation Committee in another place have now put forward agreed recommendations on the basis of the working group's report.

The proposals from the working group are set out in two reports from the Select Committee, the Second and Fourth Reports. The most conspicuous changes are a new format for clauses, with bold clause titles instead of side notes and an increase in the type size of schedules to make them the same as clauses. It is also proposed that the typeface should be larger than the traditional typeface used in the past.

The case for change arises out of two separate factors. First, there is the development of electronic publishing and the Internet on which all Bills and Acts are now published. This new technology made a re-think of the format desirable. Secondly, the Inland Revenue tax law re-write project, to which the House has already agreed in principle, has set about making tax law easier to understand. The steering committee—to which we are all grateful for its hard work—chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, has been at the forefront of proposals to improve not only the language of the tax law but also its appearance and readability.

If your Lordships agree to this report, it is intended that Bills and Acts should take on their new appearance from the beginning of the Session 2000 to 2001. A two-page spread of this year's Finance Bill in the new format is annexed to the Procedure Committee's report by way of an example.

I should also mention the second item in the Procedure Committee's report which concerns long Answers to Written Questions. It is proposed that practice in this House should be the same as that in another place and that a limit of two columns of print should be placed on Answers to Written Questions. Lengthy Answers would be placed in the Library of the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Fourth Report from the Select Committee (HL Paper 84) be agreed to.—(The Chairman of Committees.)

Following is the report referred to:

1. FORMAT OF THE STATUTE LAW At its meeting on 13 April the Procedure Committee approved recommendations from a working group of officials for changes in the format of bills and Acts of Parliament. A sample of the new format was appended to the Committee's second report (1998–99 HL Paper 52). The Commons Modernisation Committee also considered the proposed changes and agreed to all but one of them, namely the typeface. Whereas the Procedure Committee endorsed the working group's recommendation of Times New Roman, the Modernisation Committee preferred Palatino, which is a larger typeface. Accordingly, the Procedure Committee reconsidered its earlier decision and now recommends a typeface similar to Palatino but one which is more generally available on Windows-based personal computers, namely Book Antiqua. This typeface has also been agreed by the Modernisation Committee. A sample of the new format in the revised typeface is appended to this report. It is proposed that the new format should take effect from the beginning of session 2000–01.

2. LONG WRITTEN ANSWERS The Committee recommends that extremely long answers to written questions, usually in the form of lists or tables, should not be printed in Hansard. There should be a limit of two columns of print for answers to written questions. Answers to questions requiring more than two columns in Hansard should use the formula "The information has been placed in the Library of the House".

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, I am afraid that I am not happy with the second recommendation of the Procedure Committee. It is to stop printing in Hansard what is described as, extremely long answers to written questions". I would probably be happy if the Answer were extremely long, but the report goes on to say: There should be a limit of two columns of print for answers to written questions. Answers to questions requiring more than two columns in Hansard should use the formula 'The information has been placed in the Library of the House'". I am not happy about it because Written Questions are a most important part of the parliamentary process for eliciting information, often new information, often in a numerical form. It is information which not only becomes available to the Member of Parliament who has asked for it but also to the press and, through the press, a much wider audience.

I have been looking at Hansard and it is rare that the proposal which is in the Select Committee's report would have to be enforced. But on many of the occasions when it would be enforced, if the Procedure Committee's report is accepted, it would be most undesirable. Often it is possible to obtain useful statistical information as an authoritative ex cathedra source that has not previously been published or put together in that way. Having looked through Hansard on a random basis in recent months, I have found a number of such Written Answers. I shall not weary your Lordships with them. Suffice it to say, those Answers cover economic, social, educational and health matters, law and order, aid, relations with foreign powers and so on.

Many Answers are extremely useful pieces of information that should be in the public domain. The Library is not open to the public. Although a Written Answer may be available somewhere on a piece of paper, it is not the same as printing it in Hansard. I believe that the value of Written Answers would be considerably reduced if we agreed to censor them in this arbitrary way. I ask the Chairman of Committees to rethink this particular recommendation.

Lord Richard

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. I am a little surprised to hear the Chairman of Committees say that this is now the practice in another place. I did not know that. If so, the practice has changed a great deal since those of us who are now Members of this House were Members of the other place. The noble Lord is absolutely right in his description of the use of Hansard. It is a method of disseminating important information with the imprimatur of the government machine behind it. Therefore, it deserves the kind of publicity that Hansard gives it rather than merely being placed in the Library.

I also see the other side of the argument. It is costly to enumerate matters at great length in Hansard. I would not object to an indicative limit that in normal circumstances Written Answers should not exceed two columns, but to have a blanket prohibition, as the report recommends, that no Written Answer should exceed two columns in Hansard goes a little too far. I hope that the Procedure Committee will look at it again and consider a persuasive rather than mandatory approach.

Lord Peston

My Lords, I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and my noble friend Lord Richard. I have great difficulty in understanding how, on general grounds, such a proposal could have emerged. The matter that I find terribly unconvincing—whether or not it is true—is the practice in the other place. I have never regarded that as guidance in deciding anything in your Lordships' House.

I believe that this proposal will lead to inefficiency. If I discovered that I could not have a Written Answer in the form of economic data in Hansard, I would put a different Question. Instead of asking for data for 1979 to the present, I would ask for data from 1979 to 1989. I would follow it with a second Question asking for data from 1989 to 1999. I am most unimpressed with the proposal.

I tend to ask Questions precisely to put the data in the public domain. I cannot recall whether that part of Hansard is on the Internet. If it is, a fortiori this information should be published in Hansard. It follows that the Chairman of Committees should take this away, not press this particular part of the recommendations and ask one or two of us who are interested parties—this is what we do on occasions, some more and some less— what we think. No one has asked me about it. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, or anyone else has been asked. I am very unhappy about the recommendation.

6.15 p.m.

Lord Henley

My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly also in support of my noble friend and the noble Lords, Lord Richard and Lord Peston. I start with the confession that I am a member of the Procedure Committee and was at the meeting which discussed this matter. It slipped through at the end of the meeting without my noticing it. Together with other noble Lords, I have concerns similar to those already expressed. I suspect that the best that the Chairman of Committees can offer is a promise that at the next meeting of the Procedure Committee the matter should be discussed again. It is obvious that there are considerable concerns which we overlooked at the time; and I suspect that further concerns will be voiced behind me. Perhaps the Chairman of Committees can respond in that way.

Lord Renton

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Marlesford raises a very important point. Hansard is distributed throughout the English-speaking world, whereas documents deposited in the Library do not go very far. If a problem is created by long Written Answers, the solution is that Ministers should instruct their departments not to produce long Answers. Many Answers are too long. Nevertheless, their contents are important and they should be published in Hansard so that they can have the widest possible publicity, which they will not get in the Library.

Lord Stewartby

My Lords, I add a word of support to my noble friend Lord Marlesford and others who have spoken. In your Lordships' House there are former Ministers who will have encountered this issue from the other end. I recall many occasions when there was discussion in the Treasury and other departments about how best to put a substantial piece of information on the public record. To place a copy of the document in the Library is not the best way to do it. I accept that there may be a tendency to abuse the Written Answer procedure; it is perhaps that which has led the Procedure Committee to make this recommendation. As another place has implemented this arrangement—like the noble Lord, Lord Richard, I was unaware of that fact until I heard the Chairman of Committees say so this afternoon—it is all the more important that we should not take the final step of removing it from our Official Report without further thought.

The noble Lord, Lord Peston, made the valid point that if a limit is imposed on the space that a Written Answer can occupy before it is sidelined into the Library, all one needs to do is to fragment it. One asks several Questions which may not necessarily be printed together and therefore will be much less useful for purposes of references. They will be scattered throughout a number of editions of the Official Report. Hansard is very much easier to consult than is the Library, not simply because it has a wide geographical spread. Even if one wants to consult the Library, it is far easier to refer to a particular issue of the Official Report than to ask an overworked clerical assistant to dig around in various boxes, perhaps tucked away in different places, to find the document in question. Although the assistants are very assiduous, it takes a great deal longer than consulting the index of the Official Report. I hope that this matter will be given further thought.

Baroness Park of Monmouth

My Lords, I also support my noble friend. In particular, in the field of defence it is important that facts should be placed on the record where they can be clearly seen. In many ways that dispels misunderstanding. It is vital that those truths should be available. The more transparent the Government seek to become under freedom of information legislation, the more they need to ensure that something as matter-of-fact, well known and respected by everybody as Hansard, continues to be available to provide the kind of information that people want, which very often cannot be compressed into two columns.

Lord Rowallan

My Lords, I too am extremely concerned by the recommendation. We may face the ludicrous situation where, if there is a limit of two columns and the matter is slightly controversial, a Minister makes the Answer so long that it does not come into the public domain. That should be viewed with great concern. Cost has been cited as a reason. Surely, democracy should not be decided on cost but on public service and accountability. I do not see how it costs any more to print something in Hansard than to print the same information and place it in the Library. I understand that on average 1,850 copies of Hansard are sent out on a daily basis. Therefore, there are extra bits of paper involved. Apart from the cost of the paper, I should not have thought that the cost is much greater.

We must ensure that the workings of your Lordships' House are totally visible on a daily basis rather than hidden away in the Library to which the general public has little or no access. I believe that the proposal would be a retrograde step.

Lord Brightman

My Lords, I invite your Lordships to go to less controversial territory in the form of paragraph 1 of the report.

The Commons Modernisation Committee and the Procedure Committee are, in my opinion, to be congratulated on the admirable new format proposed for Bills. That said, with your Lordships' leave, perhaps I may take the opportunity to invite noble Lords' attention to a curious anomaly which exists in this field. I refer to the absence of any Minister with whom one can discuss the general policy applicable to the drafting and formulation of Bills.

Bills are mostly drafted by the Office of Parliamentary Counsel. The Minister to whom that office is responsible is no less than the Prime Minister. To be certain of that crucial fact, I checked it by two Questions for Written Answer in Hansard of 16th November 1998, col. WA 127, and 8th December 1998, col. WA 81. It would of course be the height of absurdity to suppose that one could seek to discuss the drafting policy of Bills with the Prime Minister. In the result there is simply no Minister with whom drafting policy can be discussed.

There is much which needs to be examined. For example, no guidelines exist in the Office of Parliamentary Counsel applicable to the drafting of Bills, such as apply to the drafting of Community legislation—or at least that was the situation when I inquired last October. The Community has admirable rules which I am sure some of your Lordships will envy. For example, Rule 1 states: Legislation should be drafted clearly, simply, precisely and unambiguously". Rule 3 states: Long sentences, convoluted wording and excessive use of abbreviations should be avoided". Rule 17 states: Amendments should take the form of a text to be inserted in the Act to be amended". That is to say, what I call jigsaw amendments—where the reader has to put together bits and pieces in order to read the section as a whole in its amended form—should be avoided. The most extreme example of a jigsaw amendment that I have ever encountered was contained in Clause 5 of the Trustee Delegation Bill of this Session. The clause was intended to amend Section 25 of the Trustee Act 1925. Instead of printing Section 25 in its amended form, the draftsman presented the reader with no less than eight separate amendments to two Acts of Parliament, which the reader had to put together himself in order to read Section 25 in its amended form. I can tell noble Lords that it took me 15 minutes to get the whole section cobbled together in its proper form so that I could read it as it stood. Luckily, wiser counsels prevailed and the Bill left this House containing Section 25 set out as a whole in its amended form. If your Lordships desire a reference to this epic, I refer to Hansard of 9th March 1999, col. 125.

Clause 1(6) of the National Health Service (Private Finance) Bill, as it reached this House, was described by one highly experienced Peer as "incomprehensible". I refer to Hansard of 26th June 1997 at col. 1648. Fortunately, at Third Reading, the Minister accepted an amendment which had precisely the same intended effect and was as clear as daylight. The reference is Hansard of 3rd July 1997 at col. 306.

In my opinion it would be of immense benefit to this House as a revising Chamber, and to the public to whom Parliament is responsible, if the Office of Parliamentary Counsel could be made accountable to, for example, the Lord Chancellor. There would then be a Minister with whom drafting policy could be discussed when his workload permitted that course to be taken.

In paragraph 1 of the report, the Procedure Committee has taken on board consideration of the format of Bills. I should like to ask the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees whether the Procedure Committee could perhaps go one short step further and consider whether it is completely satisfied with the manner in which Bills are drafted. It is, after all, only a short step from format to formulation. If the answer is that the committee is not completely satisfied, appropriate quarters might be willing to consider whether the Lord Chancellor, or some other Minister, might take the place of the Prime Minister as the Minister to whom the Office of Parliamentary Counsel is responsible; and perhaps guidelines for the drafting of Bills might emerge.

Lord Renton

My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, perhaps I may remind him that there is an exception to what he says about responsibility for the parliamentary draftsman. For many years in Scotland the draftsman has been responsible not to the Prime Minister but to the Lord Advocate; and that is a valuable precedent.

Lord Brightman

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for pointing that out. It is a helpful example.

Lord Swinfen

My Lords, I do not wish to follow the issue raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman, because he knows far more on that subject than I do. However, I wish to support my noble friend Lord Marlesford. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, wondered whether Hansard is on the Net. I believe that it is.

Lord Peston

My Lords, I am aware that Hansard is on the Net. I sought to recall whether Written Answers were on the Net. I hoped for reassurance on that.

Lord Swinfen

My Lords, I believe that as Hansard is on the Net, Written Answers will also be on the Net. The noble Lord is right. Anything placed in your Lordships' Library will not be for public consumption. We are not allowed to take guests into the Library, even when the House is not sitting.

The Government pride themselves on open government. It is essential that everything should be published in Hansard no matter how long the answer may be. Some speeches are remarkably long—my speech is getting too long—and they are faithfully reported in Hansard. So should Questions.

6.30 p.m.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, perhaps I may deal first with the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman. I am grateful to him for letting me know well in advance that he proposed to raise the matter. On behalf of the Procedure Committee, I thank him for his kind words.

The noble and learned Lord asked whether the Procedure Committee might be invited to consider drafting policy for Bills. I believe that his main concern was to seek to transfer responsibility for the Office of Parliamentary Counsel from the Prime Minister to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. It is a matter of ministerial responsibility and the machinery of government. I cannot be of any further help on the matter today other than to say that I am sure that Ministers will have heard what my noble and learned friend has said and taken note of it. They will see that his comments are considered by the proper quarter.

I cannot accept his suggestion to refer the matter to the Procedure Committee, because it does not fall within that committee's remit. However, I hope that what I have said is of some help and I am sure that his comments will have been heard in the appropriate quarters.

The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, about long Written Answers was supported by all the other noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate apart from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman. I am grateful to the noble Lord for having told me this morning that he proposed to raise the subject. In case it should be thought that I am not fulfilling one of the duties that your Lordships impose upon me—to be one of the guardians of your Lordships' procedures—I ought to point out that the correct course for dealing with the issue would have been to give notice and table an amendment not later than last night to achieve the aim that the noble Lord sought.

I hope that I may be able to bring a little comfort to your Lordships, but in view of the fact that a number of noble Lords seemed to think that there was no thought-out policy behind the proposal, 1 ought to spend a moment explaining the arguments. I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. It is true that another place follows the same practice, arising as a result of a ruling by Madam Speaker. That ruling came long after I served in another place and it might have come after the noble Lord, Lord Richard, was there, so it is understandable if he was unaware of it. The practice has been followed by the Editor of Debates in your Lordships' House, although without any guidelines hitherto. The Procedure Committee has suggested some guidelines.

I ought to mention the arguments lying behind the proposal to limit the length of material incorporated into Written Answers, particularly in the form of tables. It arose from a recent experience in which a question that received an Answer covering 31 A4 pages of typescript was answered on the basis that the information requested had been placed in the Library. I understand that today an answer covering 28 pages has been given.

I appreciate what has been said about costs but, with great respect, it would not be right for your Lordships' House to go on record as believing that matters of economy and public expenditure ought to be ignored. Considerations of accountability are important, but we should not ignore the need for economy and issues relating to costs.

6.30 p.m.

Lord Renton

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way in the middle of his very interesting reply. He gave an example of a very long Answer. Would it not be feasible for every Answer to be no longer than two columns and for any amplification that was needed to go into the Library or to be sent to the noble Lord who had tabled the Question?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Renton, for that helpful suggestion. That might be feasible. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, asked whether Written Answers were on the Net. I can confirm that they are. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, for having said to me sotto voce while I was listening to your Lordships contributions that that could be a way of dealing with long Answers.

Reverting for a moment to the example that I gave at the outset that had led to the proposal, that 31-page Answer prompted an investigation into previous practice with Written Answers of comparable length. It was discovered that the formula had been applied on previous occasions, although not always consistently, it has to be admitted. It is only right to mention that to your Lordships.

Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn

My Lords, does not the preparation of a Written Answer of 31 pages involve considerable public cost? Is it not therefore desirable that the fruits of such labour should be on the public record? Will the noble Lord deal with the point made by my noble friend Lord Swinfen that an Answer deposited in the Library may well not be considered part of the public record unless, as the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, has suggested, it might be put on the Internet—if that was his suggestion? That might be a less expensive solution in some respects. Is it not a waste of effort if the Answer is concealed in the Library and not part of the public record?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, that is a valid point. I do not wish to go further than that this afternoon.

Long tables are often involved in such Answers. Printing them requires a large amount of time and manpower, with consequent staffing costs to add to the other costs to which I have referred. The noble Lord who asked the Question would in any case receive the full tables and information with the signed Answer provided to him or her, a copy of which would be placed in the Library.

Lord Peston

My Lords, before the noble Lord comes to his conclusion, when noble Lords from both sides of the House have gone to some trouble to speak at length and cogently it is traditional in your Lordships' House that a brush-off, which is what the noble Lord seems to be giving us, is not appropriate. It is too late now, because we do not tend to reject such Motions, but the least that I expected was that he would promise to go away and think about the matter again. I hope that those words will pass his lips before he finishes.

En passant, I should also like to know who decided that the value of such tables was less than their cost. I should like to see that analysis and know who carried it out. The fact that a table is long is irrelevant. What matters is whether it contains worthwhile material that justifies the cost of producing it. The intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, was decisive. If the cost of collating the information has already been incurred, the marginal cost of publishing it is trivial. Before he finishes, I hope that the noble Lord will reflect on who has spoken today, at what length and why and will at least say that he will think again. I do not require any promises, but I would like to be treated slightly better than we have been so far.

Lord Swinfen

My Lords, before the noble Lord the Lord Chairman replies, will he tell the House what publicity is given to Answers placed in the Library, bearing in mind that not everyone is on the Internet?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, as regards the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, if he had felt able to contain himself for a moment or two longer, he might have found it unnecessary to impose his second speech on your Lordships' House. However, I take no more exception to what he said than that. It is open to noble Lords to say whatever they please.

I do not know the answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen. I shall inquire into it. However, as I have already indicated, it is the case that these Answers are on the Internet and therefore, to that extent, there is publicity. However, I shall at a later stage give the noble Lord a specific answer to his question on publicity.

It is clear that your Lordships are very concerned about this matter. As I have already indicated, all noble Lords who have spoken on this part of the Procedure Committee's report have supported the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. In those circumstances, I am prepared to ask the Procedure Committee to take another look at the matter. I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate that I am not able to give a definitive answer as to the result of any deliberations, because that is a matter for the committee. However, if it is acceptable to your Lordships, I am prepared to ask the Procedure Committee to take another look at it.

I also ask your Lordships to accept that I should prefer not to tie either myself or the committee to a specific time. I believe that the next meeting of the Procedure Committee has been suggested. Your Lordships have found that in recent times the intervention of urgent and weighty matters has replaced the Procedure Committee's normal agenda. Such contingencies must be provided for. However, if your Lordships would like me to do so, I am happy to follow up my suggestion on the matter of principle and to ask the committee to look at this again to see what might be possible.

On Question, Motion agreed to.