Mental Health Policy: Announcement (Hansard, 22 July 1999)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, the publication of the consultation paper, Managing Dangerous People with Severe Personality Disorder: Proposals for Policy Development, was announced to Parliament on Thursday 12th July in response to a parliamentary Question from Graham Stringer, MP.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, but does he agree that there were dangers in the PR exercise mounted by the Home Office on Monday in which Ministers were available from early morning until night to announce what appeared to be a solution to a very complex problem? Will Ministers take warning from the reaction to those statements by psychiatrists and organisations concerned with mental health that the Government are in danger of misrepresenting the problem and going for flip solutions which put at risk one of the most fundamental rights; namely, the right not to be imprisoned without due process? Does the Minister accept that this is not just a matter for psychiatrists but that there should be a judicial process if the Government insist on going down this road?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the publication of the paper was announced in the Commons on 12th July, and Jack Straw rightly made himself available for questioning on the 19th, one week later. That is part of his duty. If people get the wrong end of the stick, they may well be advised to read the document in question. That document is extremely thoughtful and addresses civil rights issues in particular; not least, it directs the attention of the reader to the European Convention on Human Rights. I give one citation from Marjorie Wallace, chief executive of SANE: There are a small number of people who for their own protection and the protection of others should have specialised management and help which is neither punitive nor uses stretched mental health resources". I believe that to be absolutely consistent with our policy.

§ The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, does the Minister agree with the statement in the consultation paper that most of these people have a lifelong history or profound difficulties from an early age, that many are the children of violent, abusive or inadequate parents, and that some may have been removed into care? Can he assure the House that all is being done to meet the needs of such people?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, that is precisely the purpose of the consultation document. There are a small number of people in the general community—we believe the figure to be between 300 and 600—who suffer from severe personality disorder. Sometimes I read their case files. I find them extremely worrying. Some of those people are quite likely to kill or injure innocents among our fellow citizens. I do not believe that we are entitled to do nothing about it.

§ Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, to give us a flying start in considering the consultation document, can the Minister provide, as he has, not only an estimate of the number of unconvicted people who are likely to be locked up for life but also an estimate of the number of people in recent years who have been murdered or seriously injured by those who are known to have severe personality disorders?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I need to correct the noble Lord's misapprehension. I did not say that between 300 and 600 people were likely to be locked up for life, but that that number of people suffered from this particular disorder. It is notoriously well known and documented that people with this disorder have a disproportionately larger representation among those who kill. We have to think only of the recent example of the murder of Mrs Zito's husband. He was a completely innocent man who was murdered by somebody who needed treatment but did not receive it.

§ Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, we may well be in danger of arguing about what constitutes a Statement to the House. We on these Benches view this as an opportunity to question the Minister and to raise issues about the consultation paper. In the light of the fact that in this House we have not had the opportunity to ask questions about the document, will the Minister, through the Government Chief Whip, make arrangements for a debate on the subject before the end of the consultation period? Will he also undertake to ensure that when the report of the review of the Mental Health Act emerges a full Statement will be made to this House which gives us the opportunity to raise issues on that Statement?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, of course these are serious issues; but the Question did not address itself to a Statement to the House. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, asked when this matter was announced and why it was not announced in Parliament first. I repeat that it was. Debates on this consultative document, or any other matter of importance, are matters for the usual channels in the normal way.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, in some of his replies today the Minister has fallen into the trap of suggesting 1135 that those who question this course of action are somehow willing to leave dangerous criminals loose on our streets. That is the danger of such a populist approach. As the Minister quotes one authority, perhaps I may quote Jeremy Coid of the St. Bartholomew's and the Royal London School of Medicine, who warns that the public should have no illusions about the "inexact science" of risk assessment of people with mental disorder. It is misleading for Ministers to pretend that they are doing something dramatic to make our streets safer when they are going down a very dangerous road in terms of civil liberties.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, it is wiser to read the document which concentrates on civil rights issues, in particular in the context of Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights. It refers to a process of appeal and to authority to detain being subject to regular independent review. That has nothing to do with populism. If the noble Lord levels that reproach against me for having a degree of responsibility in this matter, I wonder how I am expected to answer the relatives of those who may be murdered. That is a perfectly legitimate, and serious, question.